Nelson Mandela has passed

WilyCoyote

Rascasse wrote: »

Thatcher was possibly the most important foreigner trying to end apartheid in the 80’s. The left are generally incapable of saying anything nice about her, and certainly not about her work to free Mandela, so it’s good to see Renwick give her credit. Makes a change from the nonsense about Cameron producing “Hang Mandela” posters.

From privately lobbying Botha to release Mandela to facilitating secret talks between the NP and ANC in the UK, she certainly did her bit.

Shows her adeptness of speaking out of both sides of her mouth simultaneously. British interests were at stake. That was her only goal.

Billy86

WilyCoyote wrote: »

After the State funeral yesterday she would be turning in her fetid grave

Why? She had her own funeral screened across the UK, remember?

https://n0tice-static.s3.amazonaws.com/images/reports/microblogs/mediumoriginalaspectdouble/652ce706a37cd684e196dfbbaf797210.jpg

:pac:

Santa Cruz

rhapsodyinblue wrote: »

I was watching RTE's broadcast of Nelson Mandela's funeral from 6am this morning. I greatly admired this remarkable statesman, as I think most people did. I was shocked however, that RTE did not show the entire funeral ceremony! When I phoned to complain, I was told that the time allocation was up! Surely, for a world event, the likes of which the human race will probably never see again, they could have extended it? When there have been golf events and the likes, they don't hesitate in cancelling other programmes! Shame on you RTE.

What? And cancel the repeat of Winning Streak!!!!!!!!!!

Piliger

Rascasse wrote: »

Thatcher was possibly the most important foreigner trying to end apartheid in the 80’s. The left are generally incapable of saying anything nice about her, and certainly not about her work to free Mandela, so it’s good to see Renwick give her credit. Makes a change from the nonsense about Cameron producing “Hang Mandela” posters.

From privately lobbying Botha to release Mandela to facilitating secret talks between the NP and ANC in the UK, she certainly did her bit.

Yes she did. But the haters found that truth as unpalatable as they find her huge success in revitalising the UK economy.

Nodin

Piliger wrote: »

Yes she did. But the haters found that truth as unpalatable as they find her huge success in revitalising the UK economy.

Revisionist thatcherite ****. She gave apartheid years it wouldn't have had.

Rascasse

AerynSun wrote: »

Economic sanctions DID happen, and that affected the lower middle class and the working class, and the underclass who never could get a paying job.

Cultural sanctions also happened, and the effect of that was that anybody who owned/watched TV got tons of Dallas and Dynasty and no Dr Who or Red Dwarf.

It's strange that you got US TV and not British. When I lived there (late 90's - early 00's) it wouldn't be much fun watching something like Red Dwarf on SABC anyway. I remember watching films late at night and any "jesus", "oh my god" "christ" were all bleeped. The censor would have a field day with something like Red Dwarf.

Nodin wrote: »

Revisionist thatcherite ****. She gave apartheid years it wouldn't have had.

Yes, of course it was Thatcher that gave Apartheid years. It took 30 years from MacMillan (a Tory) giving Verwoerd's government the "Winds of Change" speech till Mandela was released. There's a few Labour governments in that period, including the one where Wilson and Callaghan considered jailing Peter Hain (the only British politician with an unblemished record in this) for causing trouble in his efforts to disrupt a sports tour. Yet Thatcher get's the bile...

Nodin

Rascasse wrote: »

It's strange that you got US TV and not British. When I lived there (late 90's - early 00's) it wouldn't be much fun watching something like Red Dwarf on SABC anyway. I remember watching films late at night and any "jesus", "oh my god" "christ" were all bleeped. The censor would have a field day with something like Red Dwarf.



Yes, of course it was Thatcher that gave Apartheid years. It took 30 years from MacMillan (a Tory) giving Verwoerd's government the "Winds of Change" speech till Mandela was released. There's a few Labour governments in that period, including the one where Wilson and Callaghan considered jailing Peter Hain (the only British politician with an unblemished record in this) for causing trouble in his efforts to disrupt a sports tour. Yet Thatcher get's the bile...

Thatchers the one being lionised......

Amazingfun

Nodin

Amazingfun wrote: »

The tragic fact of business is that ordinary Africans were better off under
colonialism.

Racist bollocks. Why are you posting this cack?

Piliger

There is a kind of person who cannot cope with the existence of great people. They feel that the very existence of great people reflects on them and makes them feel small and insignificant and diminished. So they deal with this by creating a myth in their heads that reduces great people down to their size. Truth is the first casualty. We see this a lot in the aftermath of Mandela's passing.

The video above is from the cult leader Stefan Molyneux, and he is a well known nutter on the grand scale.

Nodin

Piliger wrote: »

There is a kind of person who cannot cope with the existence of great people. They feel that the very existence of great people reflects on them and makes them feel small and insignificant and diminished. So they deal with this by creating a myth in their heads that reduces great people down to their size. Truth is the first casualty. We see this a lot in the aftermath of Mandela's passing.

The video above is from the cult leader Stefan Molyneux, and he is a well known nutter on the grand scale.

It will be interesting to see if the poster has the wherewithal to come back and defend themselves and their post.

Amazingfun

Nodin wrote: »

Racist bollocks. Why are you posting this cack?

What a great rebuttal of the video, calling it "racist", lol.

Amazingfun

Piliger wrote: »

The video above is from the cult leader Stefan Molyneux, and he is a well known nutter on the grand scale.

, another devastating rebuttal! "Nutter", so there!

Nodin

Amazingfun wrote: »

What a great rebuttal of the video, calling it "racist", lol.

I went to the text underneath the video, as two minutes of listening to your man hadn't provided any great insight to his argument, save "waaah, terrorism" which has been extensively dealt with on the thread previously. There I found the following

The tragic fact of business is that ordinary Africans were better off under colonialism.

...'backed up' with the usual tired underplaying of colonialist violence, atrocity and racism. Then there's the usual playing around with economic stats, dragging in other parts of Africa to have a dig at South Africa by association (they're all black, don'tcha know)......

So yes, in a nutshell, it's tired, pathetic racist cack.

Do you agree with all of it? Would you care to spell out your position in your own words? Or are you going to take the course most favoured by those bereft of an argument and scuttle off with no further replies.

Amazingfun

Did you watch the whole video? And no, I don't "agree" with every word Molyneux utters, but I surely do agree with most of this video.

South Africa is indeed the rape capital of the world, even some of the Blacks themselves say things were better run under Apartheid, etc.

You are just practicing your usual "outraged shtick" , par for the course really.

Hande hoche!

I noticed they were selling Nelson Mandela t-shirts in Henry St. in Dublin today.

Nodin

Amazingfun wrote: »

Did you watch the whole video? And no, I don't "agree" with every word Molyneux utters, but I surely do agree with most of this video.

South Africa is indeed the rape capital of the world, even some of the Blacks themselves say things were better run under Apartheid, etc.

You are just practicing your usual "outraged shtick" , par for the course really.

Lovely. So not only are you some sort of racist, you can't even expound your own racist argument. Very classy indeed.

Piliger

All completely and utterly irrelevant to the Topic.

Amazingfun

Nodin wrote: »

Lovely. So not only are you some sort of racist, you can't even expound your own racist argument. Very classy indeed.

Oh look, another "tut tut" from a habitual Tut Tutter :rolleyes: It's common knowledge that Boards is no place for a fair debate on race, lol.
I do love that a few of you shysters like to pretend it is though.

***Here is something well worth looking at for the lurkers, not the whiny "you're a waaaaacist!!!" name-caller crowd (yes that includes you).

Watch from 33:10 to hear some truly eye-opening statements re: Zimbabwe's model of land/wealth redistribution.

The whole thing is worth watching, for reasons obvious , but do watch from 18:00 -19:00 thereabouts as well to hear a Black South African say that often services provided were better under Apartheid.

Nodin

Amazingfun wrote: »

Oh look, another (............)Apartheid.

Still completely unable to make your own arguments.....not exactly an advert for superiority amongst the races.

Amazingfun

Bye Nodin, I'll leave you now with your weak tut-tuts and your delusions of "adverts for claims of superiority".
A true load of BS, as expected.

Mod

Amazingfun banned

opr

Piliger wrote: »

There is a kind of person who cannot cope with the existence of great people. They feel that the very existence of great people reflects on them and makes them feel small and insignificant and diminished. So they deal with this by creating a myth in their heads that reduces great people down to their size. Truth is the first casualty. We see this a lot in the aftermath of Mandela's passing.

It's weird in that I thought while reading some of amzingfun's idiotic posts that in many ways your's where the yin to their yank. While AF has gone completely off the deep end in one direction, you on the other extreme seem incapable of recognizing even the slightest misgivings about Mandela.

Your impassioned response above has been typical, rather than addressing the points being made you instead give some vague response with little value. You could have through good debate made the poster look silly by focusing on the facts but choose instead to vilify anyone whom dare speak ill of the man.

I and others are not afraid of greatness but the reality is they are just men and as such have faults, have make mistakes, have not always got it right. That doesn't take from recognising that they still have been capable of great things. The only person creating myths and legends of perfect people is yourself and others like you.

Opr

Femme_Fatale

Personally I have absolutely no issue with acknowledging the less savoury aspects to Nelson Mandela, but only from a balanced source; and certainly not when it's presented in such a way as to suggest that maybe there were things about apartheid which weren't so bad.

Apartheid was a sick system that needed to end; the way things can be in South Africa now (appalling) does not make it justifiable to lament the ending of apartheid.

opr

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Personally I have absolutely no issue with acknowledging the less savoury aspects to Nelson Mandela, but only from a balanced source; and certainly not when it's presented in such a way as to suggest that maybe there were things about apartheid which weren't so bad.

Apartheid was a sick system that needed to end; the way things can be in South Africa now (appalling) does not make it justifiable to lament the ending of apartheid.

You won't find any balanced person expressing anything other than those views. The panel discussion posted above, which I posted earlier in the thread was actually suppose to be a celebration of his legacy. It does however discuss how the ANC has gravely failed since coming to power.

The difficulty I have for example is pointing out Mandela fight for equality for all, something which he spoke about many times while being told that his fight was purely one for the struggle of black versus white equality.

Mandela wrote:

The normal condition for human existence is democracy, justice, peace, non-racism, non-sexism, prosperity for everybody, a healthy environment and equality and solidarity among the peoples.

It's like talking to a wall of ignorance, who has one viewpoint which no matter what you say will never change any thinking on the subject.

Opr

Femme_Fatale

opr wrote: »

You won't find any balanced person expressing anything other than those views. The panel discussion posted above, which I posted earlier in the thread was actually suppose to be a celebration of his legacy. It does however discuss how the ANC has gravely failed since coming to power.

The difficulty I have for example is pointing out Mandela fight for equality for all, something which he spoke about many times while being told that his fight was purely one for the struggle of black versus white equality.



It's like talking to a wall of ignorance, who has one viewpoint which no matter what you say will never change any thinking on the subject.

Opr

I guess Mandela thought whites didn't really need to be fought for as they were the ones with the upper hand anyway? He probably did not foresee how things would turn out.

opr

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I guess Mandela thought whites didn't really need to be fought for as they were the ones with the upper hand anyway? He probably did not foresee how things would turn out.

I've no idea what the white's needing protecting is about? Just because there is a black elite now alongside the white one hasn't lead to a more fairer and equitable society which is the point. The mistakes he made in the transition where at the expense of the country. It all seemed to go against everything that has previously been policy. He surrendered much of the ANC's original social and economic policy and in effect became an economic neoliberal.

I posted earlier in the thread, Ronnie Kasrils, former deputy minister in the Mandela administration has been banging the same drum for quite a while now.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/24/anc-faustian-pact-mandela-fatal-error

This idea that he was successful, satisfied etc obscures from the fact that while it was a good start things are still deeply wrong within SF, much of which have been caused by the current regime. That I'm sure is of deep regret.

Opr

opr

btw, this Irish guy is great back during a protest against the murder of dozens of mine workers in South Africa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea57ukL2Qs

Opr

Piliger

opr wrote: »

It's weird in that I thought while reading some of amzingfun's idiotic posts that in many ways your's where the yin to their yank. While AF has gone completely off the deep end in one direction, you on the other extreme seem incapable of recognizing even the slightest misgivings about Mandela.

Totally false, if you read my posts.

Your impassioned response above has been typical, rather than addressing the points being made you instead give some vague response with little value. You could have through good debate made the poster look silly by focusing on the facts but choose instead to vilify anyone whom dare speak ill of the man.

One cannot debate with people who are ignorant of simple facts and who are incapable of realising their own ignorance.

I and others are not afraid of greatness but the reality is they are just men and as such have faults, have make mistakes, have not always got it right. That doesn't take from recognising that they still have been capable of great things. The only person creating myths and legends of perfect people is yourself and others like you.

Lame. Very lame.

nacho libre

Piliger wrote: »

I was fully aware of it. You on the other hand completely fail to show any ability to grasp the meaning of the connection.

it doesn't seem as if you do, when you make comments like this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87876517&postcount=353

You were also unaware that Nelson praised Adams and the IRA on the steps of government buildings, much to the embarrassment of Albert Reynolds at the time.

I understand why there was the connection, you seemingly want to play it down or misrepresent it because you admire Nelson, but you can't abide the fact he had a close connection to the likes of Gerry Adams. You can bluster also you like, but this is the crux of the matter.



It seems you are incapable of acknowledging Mandela's faults. You become emotionally involved if anyone challenges your Canonization of Nelson. He was a man, a great man, but a man nonetheless with failings.
My motivation for pointing out his failings is not because I feel inferior( I happily accept he's a better human than i am , so is Bob Geldof, Adi Roche and countess others, and in so doing makes me somehow feel better about myself, or because I have some political agenda. Leave the psychological analysis to the experts, piliger.