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Whats so good about MAC laptops?
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See blue for response
.I wasn't thinking of the E6520, no.
My analysis was based on the Dell website and on the review I referred to.
Out of date.
My assumption that it was last years model was based on the fact it uses a 3rd gen Sandybridge processor rather than Haswell. As well as the large price discount quoted on the Dell website.
Last week, the non-retina MBP is third gen Ivy bridge as is the Dell model, so what is your point?
I conducted an analysis of the Dell as against last years non-retina MBP and this years rMBP. So regardless of your reasons for choosing the non-retina version, my analysis holds I think.
Out of date.
And it was you who chose the E6530 as a comparator to show the value in windows laptops versus apple, not I.
What is your point?
Also, you never mentioned a CD drive (at least not on this page). You mentioned a 7200 rpm disc which I took to be a reference to hard-drive.
You made an assumption that I was comparing with the retina model which was not based on anything
What I did miss though was that the Dell laptop was priced ex-VAT. So you can add 23% onto all the prices quoted.
My prices include VAT and the review you used is out of date
I would note of course that there has been no price drop for the non-retina MBP so it is now very much over-priced. But that's really a case of Apple not discounting dated technology - comparatively to the original price of the Dell it was actually much cheaper (once you add in the VAT the Dell i5 was €1790!).
Up until this point, you have made quite the stance on how the original Dell price is more than the current price. Then you concede Apple has overpriced their 3rd gen stuff but not accepting that Dell revised their prices? You lost credibility there
Finally In any event, this was a thread about Mac v Windows generally, rather than your specific use needs. My point was to show that for what you get in each computer, the Macbooks are price very competitively, at least versus that specific Dell line.
See table attached
Whether the new Macbook meets your specific needs or not doesn't really change the essential point I was trying to make.
You're yet to clearly make that point0 -
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See blue for response
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Well if the Dell website doesn't have the right specs up, how the hell am I meant to know them? Why don't you post where they are available?
Kind of difficult for me to get any idea of a comparison when there's no info provided.
Perhaps you posted it further back, but I haven't even seen pricing for the new version. And your table doesn't add much clarity as it's impossible to determine which models you are comparing. For example, you refer to MBP's having a HDD. But the HDD versions are discontinued now, with only SSD retina versions available.
My point on the 3rd gen processor (whatever the code name is - I may have gotten it wrong), is that it is now a generation out of date. Therefore, it should be priced below the latest version.
I know the old MBP is now out of date too. I don't know why apple haven't discounted it, but I don't think it undermines my credibility. I mean, i admitted upfront that it was overpriced.
Perhaps you meant it undermined my point.
But I don't think it's properly reflective to compare the pricing of older lines where the companies concerned adopt very difficult discounting policies.
When the 3rd gen models were released, they were comparable in pricing from what I can see. Now that Apple are onto the 4th gen 13" models, their pricing is comparable to 4th gen competitors (I've no idea about MBP 15" as I've no interest in that price range).
That they have kept the old line and not discounted is curious. But the pricing for the 2012 model now cannot be taken as generally indicative of the pricing for their product lines as a whole.
If you want to argue that specific model is over-priced compared to comparable windows models I will agree. But that conclusion doesn't translate across the line. Just because one model has been proved to be over-priced, you cannot say that is necessarily the rest of them are.
Most people won't really look at that 2012 model anymore. If they do an analysis, it will be on the new rMBP. In which case they may feel there is a premium to pay for having the latest gen processor.0 -
The ASUS UX301LA matches or beats the new 13" Haswell rMBP in every aspect. Aluminum body, 1.4 kg (rMBP 1.57 kg), 15.5mm thin (rMBP 18mm), Gorilla Glass Retina touch display, Core i7 processor (rMBP: Core i5), Iris graphics, 9 hrs battery life.
And if that's not good enough, the new UX302 will have a Nvidia GT 730M.
Any idea of pricing and availability? The linked site doesn't provide.
The specs are configurable though, so I presume the i7 model will be at a premium? Some sites list it going up as far as $2199 (which would be higher than the most expensive factory MBP configuration - though I think you can add RAM and maybe processor upgrades on top so I doubt there's much in it).
What's the base configuration like versus the base 13" rMBP?
Edit - I see here that the base model is circa €1300, which is €50 cheaper then the similarly spec'd base rMBP - http://www.ultrabookreview.com/3533-asus-zenbook-ux301la-review/.
What happened to much cheaper? You got me excited! Hence why I asked about availability
The review also puts the higest spec (seems to be same specs as yours) at €2000 or so. You can configure a rMBP to include an i7 processor for an extra €200 - so to achieve similar specs as the Asus you need to pay €2050.
Not much of a price difference there. I again fail to see the massive value differential. It really comes down to the choice of OS.
Edit - the quoted Apple spec has 512GB SSD versus 256GB on the Asus.
Dropping the apple back to 256GB gives you a saving of €200, so you are looking at €1850.0 -
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Response in blue.Well if the Dell website doesn't have the right specs up, how the hell am I meant to know them? Why don't you post where they are available?
Hey hey hey, no helling around here. I said that a like for like comparison, the Dell is much cheaper. It is no issue of mine that you can not find that on their site.
Kind of difficult for me to get any idea of a comparison when there's no info provided.
Like for like.
Perhaps you posted it further back, but I haven't even seen pricing for the new version. And your table doesn't add much clarity as it's impossible to determine which models you are comparing.
Dell E6530, MD104LL and BTO
My point on the 3rd gen processor (whatever the code name is - I may have gotten it wrong), is that it is now a generation out of date. Therefore, it should be priced below the latest version.
Which Apple doesn't do across the lifespan of the machine until it is cut from the line up.
I know the old MBP is now out of date too. I don't know why apple haven't discounted it, but I don't think it undermines my credibility. I mean, i admitted upfront that it was overpriced.
The 13" is but it looks like the 15" has been dropped. The credibility is undermined when on one hand there is an argument of competitive pricing and on the other hand an admission of overpricing.
Perhaps you meant it undermined my point.
Strictly speaking, that is the point of showing up someone who is wrong in ones opinion :pac:
But I don't think it's properly reflective to compare the pricing of older lines where the companies concerned adopt very difficult discounting policies.
When the 3rd gen models were released, they were comparable in pricing from what I can see. Now that Apple are onto the 4th gen 13" models, their pricing is comparable to 4th gen competitors (I've no idea about MBP 15" as I've no interest in that price range).
Possibly but even Haswell based M4800s come in at just 100 quid more at the 1700 mark so Dells somewhat "dynamic" pricing is not limited to mid to end of life products. It looks like the 4th gen machines are widespread in other laptop lines.
That they have kept the old line and not discounted is curious. But the pricing for the 2012 model now cannot be taken as generally indicative of the pricing for their product lines as a whole.
It must be down to stock levels and commitment to the model given it is fully customisable. The E6540 is a Haswell laptop but built for a different segment of the business market.
If you want to argue that specific model is over-priced compared to comparable windows models I will agree. But that conclusion doesn't translate across the line. Just because one model has been proved to be over-priced, you cannot say that is necessarily the rest of them are.
I am not saying that as there are too many brands with too many market strategies to paint with the same brush. The thought of doing that is idiotic.
Most people won't really look at that 2012 model anymore. If they do an analysis, it will be on the new rMBP. In which case they may feel there is a premium to pay for having the latest gen processor.
That coupled with the display indeed but it is unfortunate that it is only in the last couple of days that the regular MacBook 15" was dropped.0 -
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floggg - if you're seriously considering a purchase you should read Ars Technicas detailed review of Mavericks (as Hardware is only half the story).
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/10/os-x-10-9/
There are a few things in there that made me go "F*cking hell". Especially around the new Energy management features in the OS and memory compression. Apparently he saw 25% increase in battery life on a 2007 MacBook, and even better increases on a 2013 MacBook air.
I installed it on my 2008 Unibody MacBook last night and ran GeekBench 3.0 - I saw a 6% bump over Mountain Lion. For free 0 -
Credibility is about trust worthiness or believability. My credibility isn't undermined by me admitting something which tends to undermine my argument.
A comparison for value purposes of the Dell (of unknown specs) versus a discontinued product isn't really relevant.
You also said the Dell isn't a 2012 model, so it's not a like for like comparison to compare it to the now discontinued and out of date apple 2012 model.
And while it may not be an issue for you that the Dell website is out of date, there is no possible way for me or anybody else to objectively evaluate or verify your claims regarding the value offered by the Dell if we can't see the up to date specs and pricing.
Therefore I can't really comment further or draw any valid conclusions from your posts.
Mr. Floggg, the Dell of supplied spec is being compared with a MacBook Pro which was discontinued some of the way through the life of this thread! That is not really that out of date at all at all :rolleyes: Your Jan 13 review of the laptop, with out of date pricing is.
The Mac pricing I have quoted is correct as of last Friday.
The Dell has the same components, generally released in the last quarter of 2012, which the Macbook has, which are probably still being built and shipped up fulfill orders.
Now, to keep my spend under 2000 the best MacBook Pro as of last Friday would have been a 15" MBP with an i7 3610QM CPU (Second quarter 2012), 4 gigs of ram, standard screen, standard disc, and a GFX card that is at least as good as the Dell.
Compared that to the Dell I am on about with an i7 3640QM (Fourth Quarter 2012), more ram, better screen, faster disc and an as good if a little worse GFX card. Backlit keyboard and HD webcam on par with the Mac.
I am not anti-mac, like I have said. They serve a purpose in my industry and I use them most days but I do notice an attitude from your posts which tie in with what you noticed in this thread, a snobbery and condescension which seem to stem from you not knowing how to work the Dell site, not being aware of or believing the prices Macbooks go/went for.
I have also addressed your question regarding a cheaper Macbook Pro alternative being heavier (350 grams is not worth getting in a huff about) and battery life as there isn't that much of a difference aside from the Dell having a 60 watt hour vs. the 77ish and 97ish Mac ones.
So, anyone reading the thread who has gotten this far through the rubbish (on both sides) that has been spouted, if you are multi-platform/platform independent just shop around. I am one of those people and found a computer that is as well built and better value for money, spec for spec and component by component. 0 -
floggg - if you're seriously considering a purchase you should read Ars Technicas detailed review of Mavericks (as Hardware is only half the story).
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2013/10/os-x-10-9/
There are a few things in there that made me go "F*cking hell". Especially around the new Energy management features in the OS and memory compression. Apparently he saw 25% increase in battery life on a 2007 MacBook, and even better increases on a 2013 MacBook air.
I installed it on my 2008 Unibody MacBook last night and ran GeekBench 3.0 - I saw a 6% bump over Mountain Lion. For free
I am seriously thinking about it, but I have two concerns.
Firstly, the price! Its extremely expensive, competitive or not. I don't know if I can justify spending that on any laptop, Macbook or Windows.
But when I see the weight of of other cheaper laptops, it gives me the sads. I have an iPad and am in love with the ability to just pick it up and carry it around at will, and only having to think about the battery every few days. I want my laptop to be able to do the same.
The other is gaming performance - primarily Football Manager. It's the only game I ever really play seriously on the PC or my soon to be out of date Xbox. I might play one or two other games every year, but I can take or leave them.
I think it should be able to easily handle FM2014 (the 2013 MBA seems to handle it fairly well for others so the new Pro should be fine). I would hope that would last for the next few years (though diminishing returns every year are to be expected).
I would like to be able to play other games every now and then too (don't need fancy graphics, and mainly interested in RTS games like Civ or RPGs like Diablo) but I can take it pr leave it for the most part.
In any event, most laptops have similar limitations, unless you go into something heavy and immobile, which I definitely don't want.
So I'm trying to decide if i can really justify an expensive laptop with usage limitations. Though if i am to stick to my guns on weight, i may have no choice as most ultrabooks have the same limitations.0 -
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Mr. Floggg, the Dell of supplied spec is being compared with a MacBook Pro which was discontinued some of the way through the life of this thread! That is not really that out of date at all at all :rolleyes: Your Jan 13 review of the laptop, with out of date pricing is.
The Mac pricing I have quoted is correct as of last Friday.
The Dell has the same components, generally released in the last quarter of 2012, which the Macbook has, which are probably still being built and shipped up fulfill orders.
Now, to keep my spend under 2000 the best MacBook Pro as of last Friday would have been a 15" MBP with an i7 3610QM CPU (Second quarter 2012), 4 gigs of ram, standard screen, standard disc, and a GFX card that is at least as good as the Dell.
Compared that to the Dell I am on about with an i7 3640QM (Fourth Quarter 2012), more ram, better screen, faster disc and an as good if a little worse GFX card. Backlit keyboard and HD webcam on par with the Mac.
I am not anti-mac, like I have said. They serve a purpose in my industry and I use them most days but I do notice an attitude from your posts which tie in with what you noticed in this thread, a snobbery and condescension which seem to stem from you not knowing how to work the Dell site, not being aware of or believing the prices Macbooks go/went for.
I have also addressed your question regarding a cheaper Macbook Pro alternative being heavier (350 grams is not worth getting in a huff about) and battery life as there isn't that much of a difference aside from the Dell having a 60 watt hour vs. the 77ish and 97ish Mac ones.
So, anyone reading the thread who has gotten this far through the rubbish (on both sides) that has been spouted, if you are multi-platform/platform independent just shop around. I am one of those people and found a computer that is as well built and better value for money, spec for spec and component by component.
As of today, the MBP you are referring to is not available from apple. You will find it in stores, but in many cases there are €200-300 discounts.
They (the discounts) were available in some places as of last Sunday or Monday at least (I checked). It was recognized that it was counting time until it get refreshed.
I'm sure any Mac advocate would have told you it was a bad buy at any point this October, because it was none it was at the end of its life cycle and was being replaced.
So compare all you like, but the price differential of two products at the end of or nearing the end of their product life cycles is not a good illustration of their relative value. The differential only arises because one supplier decided to discount their offering one it's technology became dated as a result of subsequent innovations and the other just discontinued it.
And while you got value in shopping around, you only got that value because you are buying dated technology. Which is a perfectly valid choice. I saw a 3rd gen i5 asus earlier which seemed like very good value but I decided against it as I couldn't see an option to upgrade the RAM past 4gb.
Like I said, you will also find discounts available on old non-retina MacBooks right now.
The savings are only there though value because you are paying for older technology.0 -
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Nonoperational wrote: »People talk about Apple fanboys a lot, well the anti Apple stuff on this thread is as bad!
I bought an air this week. i7/8gb/256 ssd, cost me €1400 with a student discount. I spent weeks thinking about it and looking at alternatives. Nothing matched the package for me. I think the air looks fantastic, and I've had 2 MacBooks over the past 8 years with not a single issue in that time. I honestly don't see how you could get better build quality and I've looked at quite a few machines. But that's just me. It's funny to see people get so worked about it. There are some mighty fine windows machines available too.
A substantially good thing about the Mac store is the hefty student discount I get 15% from my Uni. 0 -
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