Whats so good about MAC laptops?

Torqay

Well, I wouldn't buy a Dell consumer laptop for 1800 yoyos, simply because I'll get much better value elsewhere.

But fact of the matter is, Apple is selling laptops which can compete with with business-grade machines only in price but not in performance, build quality and technical support.

Graham

Torqay wrote: »

But fact of the matter is, Apple is selling laptops which can compete with with business-grade machines only in price but not in performance, build quality and technical support.

That's not a fact, that's an opinion. It may be your opinion, but personal experience of Dell laptops and Dell technical support/build quality across many many hundreds of Dell machines leaves me with a differing opinion.

GTE

stimpson wrote: »

An old clunker Mac has far more value than an old clunker Dell.

My 4 year MacBook will run Mavericks just fine, still gets used for "serious productivity" and even gets a minor speed bump due to the new Memory Compression in Mavericks.

The simple fact is that the useful life of a Mac is far longer than that of a PC and therefore has a higher residual value. If you don't take that into account when buying new kit then that is not a "rational purchase" as you put it.

Edit: Actually, my MacBook is 5 years old, not 4

The resale value of a Mac is driven by the perceived value only which is why people are getting ripped off.

My Toshiba has lasted 5 years before getting stolen, it had another 2 of hardcore audio production work left in it, not due to build quality, but just because I would want to treat myself to a faster CPU. Resale value for it was probably a couple of hundred yet macs with a quarter of the RAM and a much weaker CPU would go for 500 plus.

It would be interesting to see what a user would prefer in a blind test of a Hackintoshed version of my old laptop compared with with more expensive and less powerful Macbooks.

On your OS speed point, my 4 year old Netbook is running Windows 8 and runs very quickly indeed. You could imagine how much faster it ran on a more powerful machine so your OS point is flawed.

If one wishes to use the point about how long one machine lasts versus another, 4 or 5 years is not really that long at all. That is the least I would expect from a high end machine.

It depends on what people buy and this is where you are falling into the Mac trap. Macs are only high end machines, price-wise they do not have entry or middle of the road machines like so many other manufacturers of PCs do. For some reason, this shields people from the logical thought that no entry level machine can compete with high end ones in terms of longevity, Apple or otherwise.

At the very least compare like for like instead of comparing Macs with a market that Apple don't remotely compete in.

Torqay

Doesn't have to be a Dell, a Lenovo ThinkPad T with quad core processor, full HD display and enterprise-grade GPU is still cheaper than a MBP and yet it offers far better build quality and performance.

stimpson

Graham wrote: »

That's not a fact, that's an opinion. It may be your opinion, but personal experience of Dell laptops and Dell technical support/build quality across many many hundreds of Dell machines leaves me with a differing opinion.

I'll just leave this here:

http://blog.laptopmag.com/tech-support-showdown-2013

GTE

Torqay wrote: »

Doesn't have to be a Dell, a Lenovo ThinkPad T with quad core processor, full HD display and enterprise-grade GPU is still cheaper than a MBP and yet it offers far better build quality and performance.

Indeed, though I just speced up the Lenovo ThinkPad thinking that I had overlooked it in my laptop search and once it got 400 quid more than the Dell I stopped.

It is a decent example of comparing a like for like machine, which is the main thrust of the debate against the Macbook. This is what I feel is not being appreciated by the pro Macbook people as we are getting comparisons of Macbook vs entry level Toshiba for instance.

Torqay

stimpson wrote: »

I'll just leave this here:

http://blog.laptopmag.com/tech-support-showdown-2013

This is consumer support. NBD tech support for businesses is a very different affair.

Graham

stimpson wrote: »

I'll just leave this here:

http://blog.laptopmag.com/tech-support-showdown-2013

That would more accurately reflect my experience of Dell support INCLUDING NBD tech support for business


Tech Support Showdown 2013
Sony 95 (1st)
Apple 93 (2nd place)
Dell 82 (6th)

PC Mag Readers' Choice Awards 2013: Laptops and Desktops
Apple 9.2 (1st)
Dell 8.1 (7th)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415494,00.asp

PC Mag Readers' Choice Awards 2013 Winners: Laptops and Desktops
Winners: Laptops - Apple
Winners: Desktops - Apple
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415580,00.asp

Laptop Mag Best and Worst Notebook Brands 2013
Apple 89 (1st)
Dell 65 (7th)
http://blog.laptopmag.com/best-worst-notebook-brands-2013/3

Laptop Mag - Results from this year’s ACSI poll
Apple registered a 87 percent customer satisfaction rating on this year’s ACSI poll, making a 1 percent increase from 2012. HP placed second at 80 percent, while Dell, Toshiba and Acer followed with 79, 78 and 77 percent, respectively.
http://blog.laptopmag.com/apple-top-customer-satisfaction-rankings

Laptop Reliability and Satisfaction: MacBooks Rule
http://www.pcworld.com/article/244419/laptop_reliability_and_satisfaction_macbooks_rule.html

Torqay

bbk wrote: »

Indeed, though I just speced up the Lenovo ThinkPad thinking that I had overlooked it in my laptop search and once it got 400 quid more than the Dell I stopped.

Yup, the ThinkPad T can go beyond 2000 yoyos very easy, entering MBP territory.

Torqay

Graham wrote: »

That would more accurately reflect my experience of Dell support INCLUDING NBD tech support for business


Tech Support Showdown 2013
Sony 95 (1st)
Apple 93 (2nd place)
Dell 82 (6th)

PC Mag Readers' Choice Awards 2013: Laptops and Desktops
Apple 9.2 (1st)
Dell 8.1 (7th)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415494,00.asp

PC Mag Readers' Choice Awards 2013 Winners: Laptops and Desktops
Winners: Laptops - Apple
Winners: Desktops - Apple
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2415580,00.asp

Laptop Mag Best and Worst Notebook Brands 2013
Apple 89 (1st)
Dell 65 (7th)
http://blog.laptopmag.com/best-worst-notebook-brands-2013/3

Laptop Mag - Results from this year’s ACSI poll
Apple registered a 87 percent customer satisfaction rating on this year’s ACSI poll, making a 1 percent increase from 2012. HP placed second at 80 percent, while Dell, Toshiba and Acer followed with 79, 78 and 77 percent, respectively.
http://blog.laptopmag.com/apple-top-customer-satisfaction-rankings

Laptop Reliability and Satisfaction: MacBooks Rule
http://www.pcworld.com/article/244419/laptop_reliability_and_satisfaction_macbooks_rule.html

You cannot compare consumer support with business support. I'm talking about next business day on-site service as offered to professionals here.

And then, those statistics are of very little concern to me as I have life-long subscription for the most awesomest technical support there is: my good humble old self.

Graham

Torqay wrote: »

You cannot compare consumer support with business support. I'm talking about next business day on-site service as offered to professionals here.

But you can compare consumer Apple support with consumer Dell support which is what the OP alluded to when discussing the price differential between most laptops and Apple laptops.

Torqay wrote: »

And then, those statistics are of very little concern to me as I have life-long subscription for the most awesomest technical support there is, my humble good old self.

Even then I'm afraid I'd have to argue that your subscription is to the 2nd most awesomest technical support there is

Torqay

Graham wrote: »

Even then I'm afraid I'd have to argue that your subscription is to the 2nd most awesomest technical support there is

I'll bow my head in defeat so...

the_syco

stimpson wrote: »

- run OSX and Windows natively

Are we talking only recent MacBooks, or all chipsets (ie; not just Intel CPUs)? Once you find somewhere that sells OSX on a disc, you can install it onto a PC.

stimpson wrote: »

- develop for iOS devices

Never tried, so can't comment.

stimpson wrote: »

- run without anti virus software

No-one really bothers writing viruses for Macs, as there's no much point. When they gain a decent market share, people will start writing viruses for it.

stimpson wrote: »

- run without constantly hanging

Never had that problem. Have only seen this with people who buy low end machines, install programs that need power, and then ponder why it's so slow.

stimpson wrote: »

- automate common desktop tasks

Like what?

stimpson wrote: »

- run spell check and dictionary from any edit box in any app

I find it hard to believe that the Mac doesn't have a barebones text editor.

stimpson wrote: »

- retrieve any old version of any file

Can't comment, as I switch this option off in Windows, as it is wasteful, and can archive viruses.

stimpson wrote: »

- instantly view the contents of a file in Finder

Do this at the moment?

stimpson wrote: »

- make voice or video calls to any other mac or iOS device out of the box

I'm sure this will be curtailed once someone moans about OSX having a monopoly.

stimpson wrote: »

- create an encrypted file store anywhere in the file system

Haven't tried using the Windows one, as I don't think it's that secure.

stimpson wrote: »

- create a PDF from any app you can print from

Can do this.

=-=

IMO, you can do whatever with either one of them. Not going to say one is better than the other, as I haven't used a Mac much, and never interfaced with a Mac server.

Sisko

danish pasterys wrote: »

Dont wanna start a big heated arguement here because I know how serious people take this stuff, but I just want to know why an apple mac laptop is supposedly so much better than other laptops other than there nice sleek look dosent it do the same thing as another laptop with the same specs

Why are they so much more expensive?
Fare enough if they last alot alot longer than other laptops, are they the fastest laptop on the market ?

LOL well its like trying that with atheists versus creationists, you are gonna get heated arguments and well, apple fans are pretty damn religious.

The blunt run down :

Its not a case of Apple Fans versus, Windows fans. Its a case of Apple fans versus people who know about computers. Generally.

Few people that advise against MACs are "Windows" fans praying to their god Bill Gates every night...

Apple are marketing geniuses. Remove brand loyalty and just look at the hardware:

Macbooks are not crap laptops. They are good machines. The build quality is nice and they score high on aesthetics.

They are otherwise grossly overpriced.

So its up to you, if you care more about how your laptop looks and fitting in with the hipsters than how much it costs, go for a macbook. But when you know about computers and can see you can get a machine with more customisation options, with the same specs for half the price and a more open operating system. Well its easy to see why so many cringe when they see people with macbooks.

Also if your into gaming stick to windows. And I'm no fan of windows.


To lighten the mood :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA

Graham

Sisko wrote: »

Its not a case of Apple Fans versus, Windows fans. Its a case of Apple fans versus people who know about computers. Generally.

Alternatively it's about people that have been working long enough with and know enough about computers to recognise that each has a place with relative pros and cons to both ecosystems.

jester77

Graham wrote: »

Alternatively it's about people that have been working long enough with and know enough about computers to recognise that each has a place with relative pros and cons to both ecosystems.

Exactly. Where I work, the accountants, finance, sales and marketing have windows laptops as that is where the best software for their job is. The developers, IT and site op guys have mac laptops as they are more developer friendly with better terminal and tools.

floggg

Sisko wrote: »

So its up to you, if you care more about how your laptop looks and fitting in with the hipsters than how much it costs, go for a macbook. But when you know about computers and can see you can get a machine with more customisation options, with the same specs for half the price and a more open operating system. Well its easy to see why so many cringe when they see people with macbooks.

There's a lot of condesceniion and reverse snobbery in this thread from the windows side - along the lines of the "only stupid hipsters with too much money and who know nothing about computers buy apple" approach.

But anyway, since weight and bettery life are "specs" in many people's eyes, could somebody point me to a (non-custom built) windows laptop with comparable or better tech specs, battery life and weight as the new 13" Macbook pro?

It seems that anything cheaper than the MBP is heavier and shorter battery. And anything comparable in battery and weight is the same price.

Torqay

floggg wrote: »

But anyway, since weight and bettery life are "specs" in many people's eyes, could somebody point me to a (non-custom built) windows laptop with comparable or better tech specs, battery life and weight as the new 13" Macbook pro?

ASUS new Zenbook Infinity... Core i7, Iris graphics, 13.3" Retina touch display (Gorilla Glass), €1,800. Surely beats the sh*t out of the the fastest 13" Retina MacBook Pro for sure, which only has a Core i5 processor and costs more.

Graham

Torqay wrote: »

ASUS new Zenbook Infinity... Core i7, Iris graphics, 13.3" Retina touch display (Gorilla Glass), €1,800. Surely beats the sh*t out of the the fastest 13" Retina MacBook Pro for sure, which only has a Core i5 processor and costs more.

Macbook Pro 13" Retina Display, Core i7, Iris graphics €1649 inc VAT

It's a pity the Asus is likely to have a resale value of about 27c in a year or two.

Example total cost of ownership:

Asus €1800
Resale €0.27
Real Cost €1799.73

Macbook Pro €1649
Resale €900
Total Cost €749

floggg

Torqay wrote: »

ASUS new Zenbook Infinity... Core i7, Iris graphics, 13.3" Retina touch display (Gorilla Glass), €1,800. Surely beats the sh*t out of the the fastest 13" Retina MacBook Pro for sure, which only has a Core i5 processor and costs more.

So approx €450 more expensive then the lower speced entry level rMBP. And €50 more expensive than an i7 13" rMBP w/ 8gb RAM and 256GB SSD. And €300 more expensive then a higher speced 15" rMBP.

Know any comparable or better laptops that cheaper? Or at least same price for better specs?

The consensus among some is that windows laptops are much better value, and MBP's over priced and only bought by fools who don't know any better.

However I've spent the last week looking for a windows laptop that offers better value for comparable specs, build, battery and portability.

I haven't been able to find any though. I can get the hardware specs cheaper, sure. But in heavier machines with worse battery.

So can somebody point me in the right direction (without going the custom build route)?

the_syco

Graham wrote: »

resale value

Like a car, the resale value is how much people are prepared to spend. I get that Apple machines are fairly reliable and thus keep their resale, but they are very expensive to upgrade. Until recently, it was fairly hard to upgrade any Mac product.

Graham

I wouldn't consider many laptops to be user upgradeable so for the most part you're stuck with what they come with unless you go down the build to order route. With Mac laptops, this is indeed an expensive path to go down but at least you have the option. I'd usually recommend getting a standard config for a MacBook.

John_Rambo

Sisko wrote: »

So its up to you, if you care more about how your laptop looks and fitting in with the hipsters than how much it costs, go for a macbook. But when you know about computers and can see you can get a machine with more customisation options, with the same specs for half the price and a more open operating system. Well its easy to see why so many cringe when they see people with macbooks

That's ridiculous. Cringing when you see people with certain makes of laptops? Snob much?

The_Honeybadger

floggg wrote: »

So approx €450 more expensive then the lower speced entry level rMBP. And €50 more expensive than an i7 13" rMBP w/ 8gb RAM and 256GB SSD. And €300 more expensive then a higher speced 15" rMBP.

Know any comparable or better laptops that cheaper? Or at least same price for better specs?

The consensus among some is that windows laptops are much better value, and MBP's over priced and only bought by fools who don't know any better.

However I've spent the last week looking for a windows laptop that offers better value for comparable specs, build, battery and portability.

I haven't been able to find any though. I can get the hardware specs cheaper, sure. But in heavier machines with worse battery.

So can somebody point me in the right direction (without going the custom build route)?

Off topic maybe but what's wrong with a custom build?

Graham

mickeyk wrote: »

Off topic maybe but what's wrong with a custom build?

Can you get a custom build with the following options:

Weight: Normal/Lighter
Battery: Normal/Better

floggg

mickeyk wrote: »

Off topic maybe but what's wrong with a custom build?

Probably nothing.

But I'm an average Joe consumer and would prefer to buy an off the shelf option from a reputable brand with established support system. Ideally from a bricks and mortar shop whose staff I can shout at in person if it goes wrong.

There is a value in that for me, compared to a cheaper alternative from a smaller producer with less well established support and/or reputation and which probably requires you to know a little bit about the components and parts for minor troubleshooting purposes.

Edit - and as per the above, I looked at PC Specialist but for the options I was considering they wouldn't specify battery length (only capacity) and weight without the battery and some other part (which started at 2kg but no idea the battery weight).

I didn't like that they couldn't specify that sort of info and that you'd kind of have to know the parts a bit to figure out what the weight and battery life would be.

The_Honeybadger

floggg wrote: »

Probably nothing.

But I'm an average Joe consumer and would prefer to buy an off the shelf option from a reputable brand with established support system. Ideally from a bricks and mortar shop whose staff I can shout at in person if it goes wrong.

There is a value in that for me, compared to a cheaper alternative from a smaller producer with less well established support and/or reputation and which probably requires you to know a little bit about the components and parts for minor troubleshooting purposes.

Edit - and as per the above, I looked at PC Specialist but for the options I was considering they wouldn't specify battery length (only capacity) and weight without the battery and some other part (which started at 2kg but no idea the battery weight).

I didn't like that they couldn't specify that sort of info and that you'd kind of have to know the parts a bit to figure out what the weight and battery life would be.

Fair nuff, once you know you are paying dearly for that value. I'm not anti apple btw, was just interested to know why you wouldn't consider a custom build.

floggg

mickeyk wrote: »

Fair nuff, once you know you are paying dearly for that value. I'm not anti apple btw, was just interested to know why you wouldn't consider a custom build.

Nor am I "pro-Apple."

Honestly, I'd love if somebody could point me to a cheaper alternative with comparable specs, battery and weight so I can save myself some money on a MacBook.

I realise they aren't spec'd very well, but I think the battery and weight make them better value than a cheaper but heavier battery with less battery life. It would mean far greater usability, which would mean id be getting better value for every euro spent.

The_Honeybadger

floggg wrote: »

Nor am I "pro-Apple."

Honestly, I'd love if somebody could point me to a cheaper alternative with comparable specs, battery and weight so I can save myself some money on a MacBook.

I realise they aren't spec'd very well, but I think the battery and weight make them better value than a cheaper but heavier battery with less battery life. It would mean far greater usability, which would mean id be getting better value for every euro spent.

Yes I think the battery and resale value are a big plus on the macs. Not a factor for me, but I can see why people go for them especially seeing as they are also really stylish. For general browsing and email etc I use an iPad or phone, so a laptop has become a work tool only. Gpu is important so it's PC all the way for me.

stimpson

the_syco wrote: »

Like a car, the resale value is how much people are prepared to spend. I get that Apple machines are fairly reliable and thus keep their resale, but they are very expensive to upgrade. Until recently, it was fairly hard to upgrade any Mac product.

Upgradeability depends on the machine. The Airs by necessity aren't upgradable. The Mini can easily get a RAM upgrade and with a bit if effort you can add another 2.5 inch drive (even roll you own Fusion Drive). What I would like to see is an external chassis for a GPU over Thunderbolt.