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Whats so good about MAC laptops?

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    #122
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,896 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    stimpson wrote: »
    An old clunker Mac has far more value than an old clunker Dell.

    My 4 year MacBook will run Mavericks just fine, still gets used for "serious productivity" and even gets a minor speed bump due to the new Memory Compression in Mavericks.
    http://www.troyhunt.com/2013/02/operating-system-smackdown-windows-8.html

    Running Windows 8 on hardware designed and shipped with XP grants an appreciable performance increase also.
    The simple fact is that the useful life of a Mac is far longer than that of a PC and therefore has a higher residual value. If you don't take that into account when buying new kit then that is not a "rational purchase" as you put it.

    Edit: Actually, my MacBook is 5 years old, not 4 :)
    And I have a six year old laptop that works fine, so I don't see that your argument is valid.

    When you're talking about resale value it has everything to do with the brand and its "status" among people who want to be seen playing farmville at starbucks with a $1500 clamshell.

    These machines have the same guts as a PC and oftentimes have the same or better construction quality as Torqay pointed out but since few people in this thread have ever looked inside a Dell Precision I think the point was lost on the general audience here:

    http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m4600/pd

    click on the vid on the right. Note that you don't need an Apple proprietary screwdriver, in 2 steps you can pop out the internal hard drive.

    And you have a high number of ports and connection options. As for performance, $1300 gets you an i5, 8GB of RAM and a 2GB Firepro M5100 Workstation graphics card (translation: way, way more performance than a macbook has ever been specced with) http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=cap4800w7p001&model_id=precision-m4800-workstation&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04

    The first thing you'll notice, is its not designed to make girls swoon at you when you are sitting down at a table sipping a caramel macchiatto. But thats not really the point.

    The reason again, that macs resell better is not because of any inherent superiority, its all simply because they are coveted more by people who typically have more money than know-how. If its a mac, most people barely look at the specs. A run of the mill PC on the other hand a customer looks twice, and they aren't typically going to want to spend the same money on the same hardware thats in a mac shell simply because of consumer perception, nothing more.

    To top that the Precision has touch and digitizer-pen options, so its a super-no-brainer for anyone who actually needs to do graphics work. How you can pretend to do graphics on a platform that doesnt support a digital pen, I don't know.


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    #123
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Overheal wrote: »
    http://www.troyhunt.com/2013/02/operating-system-smackdown-windows-8.html

    Running Windows 8 on hardware designed and shipped with XP grants an appreciable performance increase also.


    And I have a six year old laptop that works fine, so I don't see that your argument is valid.

    When you're talking about resale value it has everything to do with the brand and its "status" among people who want to be seen playing farmville at starbucks with a $1500 clamshell.

    These machines have the same guts as a PC and oftentimes have the same or better construction quality as Torqay pointed out but since few people in this thread have ever looked inside a Dell Precision I think the point was lost on the general audience here:

    http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m4600/pd

    click on the vid on the right. Note that you don't need an Apple proprietary screwdriver, in 2 steps you can pop out the internal hard drive.

    And you have a high number of ports and connection options. As for performance, $1300 gets you an i5, 8GB of RAM and a 2GB Firepro M5100 Workstation graphics card (translation: way, way more performance than a macbook has ever been specced with) http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=cap4800w7p001&model_id=precision-m4800-workstation&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04

    The first thing you'll notice, is its not designed to make girls swoon at you when you are sitting down at a table sipping a caramel macchiatto. But thats not really the point.

    The reason again, that macs resell better is not because of any inherent superiority, its all simply because they are coveted more by people who typically have more money than know-how. If its a mac, most people barely look at the specs. A run of the mill PC on the other hand a customer looks twice, and they aren't typically going to want to spend the same money on the same hardware thats in a mac shell simply because of consumer perception, nothing more.

    To top that the Precision has touch and digitizer-pen options, so its a super-no-brainer for anyone who actually needs to do graphics work. How you can pretend to do graphics on a platform that doesnt support a digital pen, I don't know.

    So in summary,

    Some bloke I've never heard of but who is a Microsoft MVP can open a PDF and a word document on an old PC with Windows 8 quicker than XP on the same machine?
    You don't like Macs because they look better and if you had one and a girl in a coffee shop spoke to you could never be sure it was you she was interested in or the mac?
    Resale/residual value is irrelevent because all the people that are willing to pay more for a Mac are just wrong.
    The mac laptops don't support pens.


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    #124
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    Graham wrote: »
    It's a pity the Asus is likely to have a resale value of about 27c in a year or two.

    Example total cost of ownership:

    Asus €1800
    Resale €0.27
    Real Cost €1799.73

    You, sir, are full of faeces.
    stimpson wrote: »
    The Airs by necessity aren't upgradable.

    LOL... The Airs are very much upgradable.

    They are, in fact, being upgraded right in time for every "keynote" (Apple's service for worshippers). If you mean, they're not upgradable by the customer, this is by design and indeed a crucial necessity as Apple customers must be thoroughly screwed over to feel good, the common Mac user does not expect anything less. Courtesy of the very limited swarm inteligence of the "Mac Community", this sort of robbery is being hailed as a "necessity".

    The reaction of normal people to such policy would be outrage, the common Mac user on the other hand is just fueled with delight and will be drooling over the opportunity presented to them to cough up another grand. This is how their pyramid scheme works: the richer folks sell their old piece of junk to some poor fella who will be forever grateful to become a member of the Mac community without having to pay the full membership fee.


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    #125
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Torqay wrote: »
    You, sir, are full of faeces.

    Apple customers must be thoroughly screwed over to feel good

    the common Mac user does not expect anything less. Courtesy of the very limited swarm inteligence of the "Mac Community"

    What a compelling argument.


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    #126
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭GTE


    Graham wrote: »
    Rational debate much?/What a compelling argument.

    Quite on the same lines as your 20 odd cent retail value argument. :pac:


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    #127
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    Graham wrote: »
    What a compelling argument.

    If not riduculous, how would you describe the costs for replacing the display of a Macbook Air (700 yoyos)?


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    #128
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,896 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Graham wrote: »
    So in summary,

    Some bloke I've never heard of but who is a Microsoft MVP can open a PDF and a word document on an old PC with Windows 8 quicker than XP on the same machine?
    Incorrect summary. The point is a windows machine will run functionally in excesses of ten years. Myth: Macs last longer than PCs. Busted.
    You don't like Macs because they look better and if you had one and a girl in a coffee shop spoke to you could never be sure it was you she was interested in or the mac? Resale/residual value is irrelevent because all the people that are willing to pay more for a Mac are just wrong.
    Incorrect Summary. The visual appeal and "culture"/"cult" that Apple has created around 'The Mac' is simply the reason why they have a higher economic resale value, and has nothing to do with any technical superiority to a windows machine in the same category.
    The mac laptops don't support pens.
    Correct. Apple does not support pen-on-screen functionality. I find the lack of the functionality ironic given that the stereotype remains that "Mac is best for graphics." The Mac supports LeapMotion and even the Wacom Cintiq, if you want to venture into that expense, but a Windows Laptop can be purchased with more performance and still have those features, making them a much more viable option for use with a pen.


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    #129
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Overheal wrote: »
    http://www.troyhunt.com/2013/02/operating-system-smackdown-windows-8.html

    Running Windows 8 on hardware designed and shipped with XP grants an appreciable performance increase also.


    And I have a six year old laptop that works fine, so I don't see that your argument is valid.

    When you're talking about resale value it has everything to do with the brand and its "status" among people who want to be seen playing farmville at starbucks with a $1500 clamshell.

    These machines have the same guts as a PC and oftentimes have the same or better construction quality as Torqay pointed out but since few people in this thread have ever looked inside a Dell Precision I think the point was lost on the general audience here:

    http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m4600/pd

    click on the vid on the right. Note that you don't need an Apple proprietary screwdriver, in 2 steps you can pop out the internal hard drive.

    And you have a high number of ports and connection options. As for performance, $1300 gets you an i5, 8GB of RAM and a 2GB Firepro M5100 Workstation graphics card (translation: way, way more performance than a macbook has ever been specced with) http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=cap4800w7p001&model_id=precision-m4800-workstation&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04

    The first thing you'll notice, is its not designed to make girls swoon at you when you are sitting down at a table sipping a caramel macchiatto. But thats not really the point.

    The reason again, that macs resell better is not because of any inherent superiority, its all simply because they are coveted more by people who typically have more money than know-how. If its a mac, most people barely look at the specs. A run of the mill PC on the other hand a customer looks twice, and they aren't typically going to want to spend the same money on the same hardware thats in a mac shell simply because of consumer perception, nothing more.

    To top that the Precision has touch and digitizer-pen options, so its a super-no-brainer for anyone who actually needs to do graphics work. How you can pretend to do graphics on a platform that doesnt support a digital pen, I don't know.

    I don;t understand the need for such smugness and condescension about Mac v Windows. Unless your name is Jobs or Gates, there's really no need to feel smug about using a particularly OS.

    In any event, I would again make the point that your comparator laptop is way heavier than a MBP - by around a kg or more.

    Regardless of the brand or price, your hypothetical Famrville playing girl in starbucks would for the MBA over the Dell because it's actually convenient for her to carry and set up in Starbucks (no plug needed for at least the first five venti mochas). The Dell would be an awkward lug for her to carry in her bag, and she'd probably need to bring a charger (I couldn't see a battery life spec).

    It's all well and good if being smug if you just talk about hardware specs, but your not actually taking into account people's actual use cases. Most people who want laptops value portability over GPU processing. They put a greater value on being able to play farmville in starbucks then being able to do intensive design work.

    If the main concern was raw processing power, desktops would be a much bigger market. But for the majority of people, that's not the main concern.

    i think that's what some people don't necessarily get when talking about apple being over-priced.

    If you really want a windows comparator for macbook pro's or air, you really need to look at ultrabooks - because the are the one's with the features most desirable to the so-called clueless apple user with too much money.

    Maybe people should put themselves in their shoes and think about how they use laptops and why the see apple as representing the right choice?


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    #130
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭GTE


    floggg wrote: »
    In any event, I would again make the point that your comparator laptop is way heavier than a MBP - by around a kg or more.

    I accept that one of the nice points of a Macbook Pro is the lightness however I have to say, the difference between the Dell Latitude 15" that I am getting and the Macbook 15" (before the Retina switchover last night) 380 grams. According to Everymac, matching the CPU alone would have cost me 1000 euro more. Then I need to add in a 7200rpm disc. Same RAM, backlit keyboard and better expansion from the Dell however I can readily admit the latter point may be more specialist.

    I am not anti Mac by any means and they were very much in the running for my new laptop as I need Firewire but I do question the pricing. I would hazard a guess that if they wanted to get a majority market share that they would have to cut their profit margin to make products more accessible. That or create a new budget line but that could force down the price of high end gear once the gap is created. Isn't the iPad Mini running at 40 to 55% profit margin?

    I think Apple are doing a good job at appealing to customers who prefer looks and image over everything else but they do make a fundamentally great product. That is of course not their entire market, and I would be fairly confident that people hanging around a Laptops board would generally have much better reasons for choosing a Mac over anything else.

    For people who need the processing power and have the luxury of multi-platform programs there there is a genuine question of why would you go Mac?

    For the everyday user again, I wonder why they would go Mac as they could get the same "everyday" spec for cheaper in a Windows machine. I think this is where we get the question mark and lesson in business over Macs. The main thing to do though is compare like for like. I don't feel that it is fair criticism to fail a non-Apple machine just because they cater for a much cheaper price point from new.

    From Windows point of view, I guess they get their money from the OS and the market share would probably back up the point that the entry to mid range computer market is where the Dells and Toshibas do their selling. With so many of them, it is a wonder about how profitable that is.


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    #131
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,896 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    floggg wrote: »
    I don;t understand the need for such smugness and condescension about Mac v Windows. Unless your name is Jobs or Gates, there's really no need to feel smug about using a particularly OS.
    I'm really not, but I will respond to mac snobbery by sticking my finger in their mocha latte.
    In any event, I would again make the point that your comparator laptop is way heavier than a MBP - by around a kg or more.
    Interesting. Let me google that.

    2007 MBP 15.6": 5.4 pounds, 2.45kg http://support.apple.com/kb/SP13
    HP dv6500t, 15.6": 5.8 pounds, 2.63kg http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2231595,00.asp

    Verdict: False. Did you mean the Precision? I could tell you without thinking that certainly is, but two different beasts that compete on no other category but performance and price. Not a consumer laptop, its a power user laptop which frankly I don't find the mac to be.
    Regardless of the brand or price, your hypothetical Famrville playing girl in starbucks would for the MBA over the Dell because it's actually convenient for her to carry and set up in Starbucks (no plug needed for at least the first five venti mochas). The Dell would be an awkward lug for her to carry in her bag, and she'd probably need to bring a charger (I couldn't see a battery life spec).
    Granted, the Mac OS can hold battery efficiency as a badge of honor. There is however a lot to be said for the performance you dont have as a result. Does that matter the average Mac user? No. But for actual, Professional use, its considerable, absolutely.
    It's all well and good if being smug if you just talk about hardware specs, but your not actually taking into account people's actual use cases. Most people who want laptops value portability over GPU processing. They put a greater value on being able to play farmville in starbucks then being able to do intensive design work.

    If the main concern was raw processing power, desktops would be a much bigger market. But for the majority of people, that's not the main concern.

    i think that's what some people don't necessarily get when talking about apple being over-priced.

    If you really want a windows comparator for macbook pro's or air, you really need to look at ultrabooks - because the are the one's with the features most desirable to the so-called clueless apple user with too much money.

    Maybe people should put themselves in their shoes and think about how they use laptops and why the see apple as representing the right choice?
    See I vouch for the Ultrabook a lot. Very similar in performance to the macs and available in even the same form factors as the MBA. The Zenbook can be rather nice and the Ultrabooks, to be badged an ultrabook, have to meet a minimum battery life of 9 hours while idle under standardized testing and 6 hours in video application. This means it still lags behind the Mac in terms of power efficiency, definitely, but its a good place to be for a couple hundred dollars under the Mac though. I struggle to think of a ton of use cases where I'd be away from a plug for 6-9 hours but yeah I am sure thats handy, but its just not necessary and of itself not a closing factor on migrating to the platform.


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    #132
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    bbk wrote: »
    I accept that one of the nice points of a Macbook Pro is the lightness however I have to say, the difference between the Dell Latitude 15" that I am getting and the Macbook 15" (before the Retina switchover last night) 380 grams. According to Everymac, matching the CPU alone would have cost me 1000 euro more. Then I need to add in a 7200rpm disc. Same RAM, backlit keyboard and better expansion from the Dell however I can readily admit the latter point may be more specialist.

    I am not anti Mac by any means and they were very much in the running for my new laptop as I need Firewire but I do question the pricing. I would hazard a guess that if they wanted to get a majority market share that they would have to cut their profit margin to make products more accessible. That or create a new budget line but that could force down the price of high end gear once the gap is created. Isn't the iPad Mini running at 40 to 55% profit margin?

    I think Apple are doing a good job at appealing to customers who prefer looks and image over everything else but they do make a fundamentally great product. That is of course not their entire market, and I would be fairly confident that people hanging around a Laptops board would generally have much better reasons for choosing a Mac over anything else.

    For people who need the processing power and have the luxury of multi-platform programs there there is a genuine question of why would you go Mac?

    For the everyday user again, I wonder why they would go Mac as they could get the same "everyday" spec for cheaper in a Windows machine. I think this is where we get the question mark and lesson in business over Macs.

    A budget line would damage their business model. Won't happen. They are a massivley profitable company. The sell a premium product, so don't need the largest market share.

    That said, if you accept there is value in portability and battery life, you'll see that all comparable offerings are in that price range. I can't see any ultrabook offering similar specs (including battery and weight) a much lower price - they are just as expensive.

    I can't see any manufacturer who has been able to deliver a premium product for much less. It seems if you want to marry portability and power, you'll pay.

    So you will not get the "same everyday specs" cheaper - unless you add substantial bulk, which means it's no longer a practical option for many user.


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    #133
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,896 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    "many users" are not apple users. as demonstrated earlier in the thread, "Mac Users" are 7% of the total market.


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    #134
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    floggg wrote: »
    A budget line would damage their business model.

    Their "budget line" is a variety of overpriced refurbished old clunkers. ;)


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    #135
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Overheal wrote: »
    I'm really not, but I will respond to mac snobbery by sticking my finger in their mocha latte.
    Interesting. Let me google that.

    2007 MBP 15.6": 5.4 pounds, 2.45kg http://support.apple.com/kb/SP13
    HP dv6500t, 15.6": 5.8 pounds, 2.63kg http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2231595,00.asp

    Verdict: False. Did you mean the Precision? I could tell you without thinking that certainly is, but two different beasts that compete on no other category but performance and price. Not a consumer laptop, its a power user laptop which frankly I don't find the mac to be.
    Granted, the Mac OS can hold battery efficiency as a badge of honor. There is however a lot to be said for the performance you dont have as a result. Does that matter the average Mac user? No. But for actual, Professional use, its considerable, absolutely.

    See I vouch for the Ultrabook a lot. Very similar in performance to the macs and available in even the same form factors as the MBA. The Zenbook can be rather nice and the Ultrabooks, to be badged an ultrabook, have to meet a minimum battery life of 9 hours while idle under standardized testing and 6 hours in video application. This means it still lags behind the Mac in terms of power efficiency, definitely, but its a good place to be for a couple hundred dollars under the Mac though. I struggle to think of a ton of use cases where I'd be away from a plug for 6-9 hours but yeah I am sure thats handy, but its just not necessary and of itself not a closing factor on migrating to the platform.

    Yes, your comparator was the Dell precision. It's the model you put forth as the much cheaper alternative to the MBP - though as a result of its increased weight it's not really an alternative for most people who don't want to be tied to a desk.

    As for professional users, I assume they aren't buying for the same reason as the girl in starbucks. Really, they don't belong in the same conversation. And i would doubt image or farmville even enter their heads.

    As I said before, can you point me to a cheaper Ultrabook with comparable specs (weight, battery, haswell, iris etc)? I haven't seen any, but would be interested in one.

    Preferaby the savings would be in Euros mind;)


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    #136
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Overheal wrote: »
    "many users" are not apple users. as demonstrated earlier in the thread, "Mac Users" are 7% of the total market.

    Surely you could see that "many users" had a context. Many users of Macbooks and/or ultrabooks.

    Weight would put them off.


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    #137
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭GTE


    floggg wrote: »
    A budget line would damage their business model. Won't happen. They are a massivley profitable company. The sell a premium product, so don't need the largest market share.

    Indeed, that is exactly the basis of that part of my post :P
    floggg wrote: »
    So you will not get the "same everyday specs" cheaper - unless you add substantial bulk, which means it's no longer a practical option for many user.

    Again, I have to point out that there is only a 350 gram difference between the Macbook Pro 15" and a higher sped Dell Latitude E6530 so I can't see where you are getting that from other then there being so many different PC manufactures who offer so many options, terrible to great.

    On the battery note, Notebookcheck reviews do not show a colossal difference between the E6530 and Macbook Pros. Things like 45 mins of DVD difference in favour of the Mac with the Dell having 60 watt hours as opposed to a 77 or 97 watt hour battery from the Mac. I would wonder how often the full battery life is tested in an environment with no power available.

    I do agree with another point you raise that once you get into the premium side of things with PC manufactures that things can get expensive too. Those ThinkPads shocked the hell out of me when I speced them up!


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    #138
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    bbk wrote: »
    Those ThinkPads shocked the hell out of me when I speced them up!

    Why can't you get the ThinkPad T without the Nvidia NVS when you configure it with a quad Core i7? :confused:


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    #139
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Torqay wrote: »
    ... But fact of the matter is, Apple is selling laptops which can compete with with business-grade machines only in price but not in performance, build quality and technical support.
    I disagree completely.

    The real power in any Apple device is the superb user-interface that allows a user to be able to get their work / hobby / recreation done quickly, consistently, reliably and repeatably.

    This of course is where all the Windoze techs eyes glaze, losing interest once the focus shifts from remarks like "Oooh, look at the giga-hertz on that" or "Terra-flops are your oney man; the more the merrier".

    The reality is that most "business-grade machines" are over-specc'd for the "office" type tasks the majority of them will undertake in a working day; a bit of email, a bit of surfing, a bit of spread-sheeting, presenting, a bit of typing and maybe a bit of corporate data-base access when the expensive lap-top with all of its luscious gizmos will act as a dumb terminal.

    These machines will never be expected to re-calculate the current and future values of esoteric derivatives based on changes to the values / value-dates of the underlyings. They'll never have to run a net-change material requirements plan based on chages to the master production schedule, but might be expected to model changes to sales forecasts and cash flows.

    Some may do serious software development, but these will be in the minority; the majority will fit into the portable "office", data-capture, dumb-terminal arenas so ease of use, reliability, consistency of performance and reduced need for tech support are the order of the day IMHO. A Mac every time


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    #140
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    mathepac wrote: »
    The reality is that most "business-grade machines" are over-specc'd

    Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental. ;)

    Business machines like the ThinkPad T, Latitude and ProBook can be configured according to the requirements. You'll get a ThinkPad T 530 with a Core i3 processor for 900 yoyos (a lot less if you can claim VAT), perfectly fine for regular "office type tasks" and by no means overspecc'd, not everybody needs a mobile workstation for two and half grand or more.


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    #141
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Torqay wrote: »
    Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental. ;)

    Business machines like the ThinkPad T, Latitude and ProBook can be configured according to the requirements. You'll get a ThinkPad T 530 with a Core i3 processor for 900 yoyos (a lot less if you can claim VAT), perfectly fine for regular "office type tasks" and by no means overspecc'd, not everybody needs a mobile workstation for two and half grand or more.

    About the price of a MacBook Air with is it a 13h or 15h battery life.


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    #142
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    Graham wrote: »
    About the price of a MacBook Air with is it a 13h or 15h battery life.

    Which is far more fragile and of inferior build quality. Hardly a comparable match.


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    #143
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    There's that build quality and fragility myth again.


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    #144
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    Graham wrote: »
    There's that build quality and fragility myth again.

    Even hardcore Apple worshippers can possibly contest the superior build quality of the ThinkPad T.


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    #145
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    bbk wrote: »
    Indeed, that is exactly the basis of that part of my post :P



    Again, I have to point out that there is only a 350 gram difference between the Macbook Pro 15" and a higher sped Dell Latitude E6530 so I can't see where you are getting that from other then there being so many different PC manufactures who offer so many options, terrible to great.

    On the battery note, Notebookcheck reviews do not show a colossal difference between the E6530 and Macbook Pros. Things like 45 mins of DVD difference in favour of the Mac with the Dell having 60 watt hours as opposed to a 77 or 97 watt hour battery from the Mac. I would wonder how often the full battery life is tested in an environment with no power available.

    I do agree with another point you raise that once you get into the premium side of things with PC manufactures that things can get expensive too. Those ThinkPads shocked the hell out of me when I speced them up!


    Well in fairness, that Dell E6530 is evidently last year's model. Per the Dell Website, the original price for the minimum spec laptop was €1,190 (now down to €799).

    That's for a 15" Sandy Bridge i3 with 4gb ram,a (relatively small HDD) and weighing in at 2.44kg. It does have dedicated (or "discrete" as it's termed on the dell website - not sure of there's a difference) though gaming performance is rated pretty low here -http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Dell-Latitude-E6530-Notebook.88073.0.html so i doubt it's powerful.

    While that's a 15" model, I think it's most natural comparator spec wise is the 13" Macbook pro.

    I think though to get an accurate comparison you'd need to look at the i5 E6530, which went for €1450 (plus VAT) last year (and €899 plus VAT now).

    That's more expensive than the 2012 non-retina MacBook (which was the current model macbook at the time of the Dell's release, and gives you your suggested 350g weight differential) - with less harddrive, but a dedicated graphics card. You could have bumped last years MBP pro up to 8gb ram and come out even though.

    And at that, the 2012 non retina MBP weighed circa 2.00kg (which does make it more portable) and had (per apple) 7 hours wireless web battery. I don't know what that means exactly, but notebookcheck.net gave the E6530 a "network independent work time" of 4-5 hours and max 7 hours with brightness to low and wireless off (which they noted was artificial usage). So perhaps its slightly less than the MBP's 7 hours with brightness on, but lets call them even.

    So last year, the non-retina MBP was better value at €1250 (inclusive of VAT).

    If you want to compare it to the new rMBP, then you're looking at €900 (plus VAT) v €1350 (inclsuive of VAT). Though the rMBP comes with a far superior screen, weights only 1.57kg and has 9 hours wireless web or itunes movie play back (per apple). Notebookcheck.net put the Dell at 4.30 hours DVD playback with powersaving settings on and wifi off.

    That's a weight differential of 830grams, or almost a kilo. That is very substantial.

    The rMBP also gives you 128gb SDD at that price, which although less capacity is faster and more efficient and more expensive - justifying extra cost to the purchaser. If you swap a 128gb SSD into the Dell for example it will cost an extra €120 (plus VAT). I'm not sure what type of SSD that is, though I know apple claim to be using a newer fancier type than previously. I have no idea what difference it makes.

    Again, the dell does have dedicated graphics while the apple only has integrated. the apple does have iris graphics though which are meant to be much better than previous integrated graphics, but i have no idea if it's enough to compensate for the dell's dedicated gpu.

    The rMBP also has a newer generation processer (Haswell) - though from what I understand that only provides greater efficiency and battery length, so you might note notice any difference in performance in processors alone.

    So taking the Dell plus SSD as now looking at €1120 (plus VAT) versus €1350 (inclusive of VAT) but with a clear advantage to the rMBP in terms of specs, battery and weight - though obviously against an outdated and therefore discounted model.

    Now unless there is something I am missing (and if I am please point it out for my education), in terms of a hardware comparison, I think the apple is just as good, if not better, value for what you get. In any event, I don't think you could say based on that comparison that windows offers substantially better value.

    As of 2012, the Mac was actually cheaper for a similarly spec'ed machine to your Dell.

    Really though, the comparator for the rMBP is something like an Asus Zenbook or other ultrabook (though the Zenbook Infinity mentioned above was circa €450 dearer than the entry level rMBP).


    As for not needing 9 hours battery, you will rarely need it in one sitting, no.

    What it does give you is peace of mind, in that you can go to bed most days without having to remember to take it out of your bag and charge it if you need it one the go, as you know there should be enough in the tank. It's a fail safe against forgetting a charger - or indeed allows you to leave it at home on purpose.

    My old laptop has a battery life of about 2-3 hours depending on what I do with it. I can't take it any further than my sitting room without having the charger in tow.

    Now, I think at least 6 hours is a must for how I want to be able to use it.

    EDIT - The Dell prices above are quoted ex VAT! I've noted this above.


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    #146
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭GTE


    floggg wrote: »
    Well in fairness, that Dell E6530 is evidently last year's model etc.

    You're thinking of the E6520 :)

    That was a very big post where you missed the laptop needs which were the basis for my comparison. I purposely compared with the non-retina because I need the CD drive for a HDD caddy.

    If you want a retina comparison with the expansion drawbacks such a small laptop has I think the XPS range is the one you should have done the work on :D

    Companies should be allowed adjust their pricing and show off some sort of discount as they wish, I would only ever deal with like for like as it happens so the price difference for like for like, generation for generation hardware stands. Additionally, I am not talking about last year, I am on about last week. :)

    EDIT: And I think you mentioned screen resolution as a selling point so in my comparison there is a 1440x900 vs 1920x1080 for Apple vs Dell.


  • Options
    #147
    keyboard_cat
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭keyboard_cat


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Because Apple make them. That's all.

    If you're thinking of getting a laptop, be sure it'll suit your needs. If you want to surf the web and look at email and join the "kewl" gang, then by all means get a mac.

    But if you want to actuherally do some work and be able to share that work with others, to move files between different types of machines without hassle and to generally be more compatable with ots you are working with, then get a windows based machine.

    Also, they don't last a lot longer than "other" laptops and they are hideously overpriced.

    In their defence, they are made well and they do look nice, but if I have to do work of any kind, I'll choose a windows machine any day of the week.

    they do last longer then most other laptops i have had 2 laptops break at the internal power jack, on a macbook thats impossible, also they are made from metal instead of cheap plastic like 99% of other laptops which is better for heat dissipation and general sturdyness

    also they are better at running windows then other windows machines
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57581290-37/macbook-pro-declared-best-performing-windows-laptop/

    and i dont know what you mean about the incompatibility of files? that is something that is long gone and pretty much every single file is transferrable between windows and mac as they are software defined i have been using my mac for 2 years now and i have yet to come across a file that i have had to convert before i could transfer it between mac or windows


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    #148
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,909 ✭✭✭GTE


    keyboard_cat wrote: »
    they do last longer then most other laptops i have had 2 laptops break at the internal power jack, on a macbook thats impossible, also they are made from metal instead of cheap plastic like 99% of other laptops which is better for heat dissipation and general sturdyness

    You touch on a good point when it comes to laptops vs Apple. With so many different laptop manufacturers you can get some utter rubbish where there is one Mac manufacturer so that is a good point for Apple, it takes what could be guess work for some people out of the equation. If you can stick to a manufacturer who has comparable build quality to Apples then a good debate can be had.


  • Options
    #149
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    bbk wrote: »
    You're thinking of the E6520 :)

    That was a very big post where you missed the laptop needs which were the basis for my comparison. I purposely compared with the non-retina because I need the CD drive for a HDD caddy.

    If you want a retina comparison with the expansion drawbacks such a small laptop has I think the XPS range is the one you should have done the work on :D

    Companies should be allowed adjust their pricing and show off some sort of discount as they wish, I would only ever deal with like for like as it happens so the price difference for like for like, generation for generation hardware stands. Additionally, I am not talking about last year, I am on about last week. :)

    EDIT: And I think you mentioned screen resolution as a selling point so in my comparison there is a 1440x900 vs 1920x1080 for Apple vs Dell.

    I wasn't thinking of the E6520, no.

    I'd never heard of either.

    My analysis was based on the Dell website and on the review I referred to.

    My assumption that it was last years model was based on the fact it uses a 3rd gen Sandybridge processor rather than Haswell. As well as the large price discount quoted on the Dell website. And finally, from the online reviews of the E6530 from 2012, such as this one from 21st August 2012 - http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Dell-Latitude-E6530-Review-156inch-BusinessClass-Machine-With-SSD/

    I conducted an analysis of the Dell as against last years non-retina MBP and this years rMBP. So regardless of your reasons for choosing the non-retina version, my analysis holds I think.

    And it was you who chose the E6530 as a comparator to show the value in windows laptops versus apple, not I.

    Also, you never mentioned a CD drive (at least not on this page). You mentioned a 7200 rpm disc which I took to be a reference to hard-drive.

    What I did miss though was that the Dell laptop was priced ex-VAT. So you can add 23% onto all the prices quoted.

    Which brings you way over the non-retina Macbook pro on last years Dell pricing (€1,790). And to €1107 at present without the SDD. It works out roughly the same as the rMBP this year if you add the SSD.

    I would note of course that there has been no price drop for the non-retina MBP so it is now very much over-priced. But that's really a case of Apple not discounting dated technology - comparatively to the original price of the Dell it was actually much cheaper (once you add in the VAT the Dell i5 was €1790!).

    Finally In any event, this was a thread about Mac v Windows generally, rather than your specific use needs. My point was to show that for what you get in each computer, the Macbooks are price very competitively, at least versus that specific Dell line.

    Whether the new Macbook meets your specific needs or not doesn't really change the essential point I was trying to make.


  • Options
    #150
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    keyboard_cat wrote: »
    i have had 2 laptops break at the internal power jack, on a macbook thats impossible

    Is that so?

    LOL
    keyboard_cat wrote: »
    they are made from metal instead of cheap plastic like 99% of other laptops which is better for heat dissipation and general sturdyness

    Rubbish.

    1. Plastic has a higher heat capacity than aluminum.

    2. Both are going to absorb shock just the same. The real difference is the resulting difference. Plastic is going to scratch easier because it is softer, but most of these scratches are going to be much harder to notice because the plastic can be colored the same all the way through. Metal won't scratch as much, but scratches will be much more noticeable, no question about it. When it comes to actual drops, metal has a lower yield point, so there will be more permanent denting/bending, but plastic will have gashes, dents, chips, and possible cracks, especially if you drop it on something nasty like broken concrete/asphalt. The difference is that plastic is brittle in behavior, and metal is ductile.

    3. Metal is not RF transparent but plastic is which makes it the preferable material for devices with internal WiFi and BT transceivers, such as laptops.

    But even if you don't like plastic, you'll get aluminum or even carbonfibre body laptops elsewhere for a lot less.


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    #151
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Serious question; what specs are the Apple servers?


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