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Why is it wrong to oppose mass immigration?

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    #602
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Nodin wrote: »
    They can't arrive and claim, so no.

    It does not fit the narrative so will be ignored. It's really like a merry go round.


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    #603
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    Last year Asylum applications the lowest in years 920 this year so far it will more than likely be less than 900 and dropping. Less than 10% get Asylum, not sure of current situation in relation to SP. But a person can have a valid claim to SP and not Asylum.

    What's your solution to the issue? What are the downside to your solution?
    Were paying out enough in social welfare there are those who wont get off their asses,those who come here to get social welfare,and those who cannot get a job or havet the money to leave ireland..

    Either way it needs a big clean up operation,we need to stamp out fraud and welfare tourism that will possibly break the state if we lose the case against the african family taking the state to court over provision.

    The reason why africans and whatever else get payed 19 euros per week is because we simply cannot afford them in the first place - lets also factor into account these people will never be homeless they always have free food and bed and board for the night,never have to worry about paying a bill or being chucked out/evicted from tenancy.


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    #604
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    Were paying out enough in social welfare there are those who wont get off their asses,those who come here to get social welfare,and those who cannot get a job or havet the money to leave ireland..

    Either way it needs a big clean up operation,we need to stamp out fraud and welfare tourism that will possibly break the state if we lose the case against the african family taking the state to court over provision.

    The reason why africans and whatever else get payed 19 euros per week is because we simply cannot afford them in the first place - lets also factor into account these people will never be homeless they always have free food and bed and board for the night,never have to worry about paying a bill or being chucked out/evicted from tenancy.

    Keep up with the news they dropped the case after the state put in replying affidavits. Again I ask what's your solution in relation to Asylum?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/african-family-withdraws-challenge-to-direct-provision-scheme-1.1623080


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    #605
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    The planet can only on an enviornmental scale support 2 billion people at max...
    Nonsense. Feel free to support that statement with something.
    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    ...africa is 2.4 billion...
    No, it’s half that.
    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    Ive seen plenty of blacks in ireland and much much more in the uk recently...
    So? You’re aware that not all black people come from Africa? You’re aware that not all Africans in the UK & Ireland are here illegally?
    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    ...they immigrate to our countries by the plane load,dump thier identity and passports just before touchdown,conveiniently enough,and just because they dont turn up on the census doesnt mean they are not there flouting our laws..
    So you’re trying to tell us that there are “plane loads” of Africans arriving in Ireland illegally all the time? How? How do they get out of the airport without passports and without applying for asylum?


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    #606
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    Keep up with the news they dropped the case after the state put in replying affidavits. Again I ask what's your solution in relation to Asylum?
    I want a stop to it all until we sort our house out - i dont think that is unreasonable at all..


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    #607
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    woodoo wrote: »
    We should send the bogus ones back after their first appeal is refused. To many are going for appeal after appeal.
    About half of all successful applications for asylum are granted on appeal.


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    #608
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    I want a stop to it all until we sort our house out - i dont think that is unreasonable at all..
    Define "until we sort our house out". What does that mean exactly?


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    #609
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    I'm 100% against immigration that does not directly benefit the host country. I don't think we should offer asylum or take in refugees. If there is a labour shortage and it benefits the country, we should allow workers to reside here.

    The catch is - we joined the EU. So EU citizens have ever right to move to Ireland. That's the deal we made. But Non-EU folk should only be here if it benefits Ireland, IMHO. Let them work, pay taxes, raise kids, and if they met the requirements, after enough time, they can be citizens. But if they lose their job or need to utilize social services or commit crimes....send them home. That's their problem, not ours.


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    #610
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,252 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    The reason why africans and whatever else get payed 19 euros per week is because we simply cannot afford them in the first place
    That was put in place to act as a deterrent.
    lets also factor into account these people will never be homeless they always have free food and bed and board for the night,never have to worry about paying a bill or being chucked out/evicted from tenancy.
    Even the ones who get deported?


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    #611
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    I want a stop to it all until we sort our house out - i dont think that is unreasonable at all..

    How and why? You have heard of the UN convention on Refugees and it's history and that ireland has signed up to it. What would happen if we refused to implement the convention.


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    #612
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    djpbarry wrote: »
    About half of all successful applications for asylum are granted on appeal.

    Can you show figures for that claim.

    Page 32 on http://www.refappeal.ie/website/rat/ratweb.nsf/page/CRSE-98MKRV1683113-en/$File/Annual%20Report%202012%20English.pdf

    Does not support the 50% allowed on appeal.


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    #613
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,252 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    UCDVet wrote: »
    I'm 100% against immigration that does not directly benefit the host country. I don't think we should offer asylum or take in refugees.
    We have international obligations to do so, not every action the state takes can or should boil down to economic value. What you're saying also implies that asylum seekers/refugees will not contribute (economically or otherwise) to the host state, which is not true.


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    #614
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    Define "until we sort our house out". What does that mean exactly?
    We need to stamp out fraud on every level from welfare recipients to business owners,politicians,gardai and banksters.

    We need to send out a strong message to welfare tourists too..

    We need to show strong example and make an example of these people,what about the anglo two who were joking on the phone running off with millions and last i heard they were living the good life in some sleepy suburbs of america?


    What kind of fucking country are we at all..


    We need to show strong example that people cannot just turn up here and claim asylum or get to be an immigrant living in ireland,its just not on..

    We have serious unemployment levels here in ireland,and enda kennys solution is job bridge and working 20 hours for the council and get payed 20 euros for working 20 hours..

    These schemes only worsen the unemployment levels undercutting the real paid jobs market,and converting what could be a paid job to unpaid work..

    Stealing what could be a paying job from the working classes and middle classes.

    Ive seen care jobs being advertised by job bridge and the like,its a disgrace.


    Our country is a mess and its getting worse,and the more asylum seekers / immigratns that are taken on the worse it will get.

    Its a numbers game to them,they dont care they just want more heads to tax for water and property but they will pay for it in the end when they have to fund their stay here and some of these cases of asylum go on for ten years..


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    #615
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    We have international obligations to do so, not every action the state takes can or should boil down to economic value. What you're saying also implies that asylum seekers/refugees will not contribute (economically or otherwise) to the host state, which is not true.

    If a person wants to come to Ireland, I feel like the only consideration should be whether or not it is in Ireland's best interest. Nobody can see the future, but we should do our best to accurately gauge what someone will contribute to the country.

    If everyone who applied for asylum/refugee status would benefit Ireland in a meaningful/measurable/objective way - then we should let them all in. But I thought the entire point of asylum/refugees is that these were people who would not otherwise meet the criteria to be an immigrant. IE - they don't have a relatively high-paying job lined up.


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    #616
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,252 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    UCDVet wrote: »
    If a person wants to come to Ireland, I feel like the only consideration should be whether or not it is in Ireland's best interest. Nobody can see the future, but we should do our best to accurately gauge what someone will contribute to the country.

    If everyone who applied for asylum/refugee status would benefit Ireland in a meaningful/measurable/objective way - then we should let them all in. But I thought the entire point of asylum/refugees is that these were people who would not otherwise meet the criteria to be an immigrant. IE - they don't have a relatively high-paying job lined up.
    That is not the case; despite what many people seem to believe not all asylum seekers are chancers looking to get one over on Paddy. Look up programme refugees too.


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    #617
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    We need border control like in austrailia - why are we leaving them in are we soft in the head.?

    We need to know are they just using mosney and all these other places in ireland b& bs and the like as doss houses?


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    #618
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    We need border control like in austrailia - why are we leaving them in are we soft in the head.?

    We need to know are they just using mosney and all these other places in ireland b& bs and the like as doss houses?

    Austrialia has had 1.2 million immigrants arrive between 2000 and 2010, 25% of their population are migrants compared to Ireland's 12%. It's far easier to migrate to Australia than Ireland. While you may not like that it's a fact.

    They also according to their own estimates have in excess of 60,000 illegal workers. http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/87illegal.htm#c


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    #619
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    That is not the case; despite what many people seem to believe not all asylum seekers are chancers looking to get one over on Paddy. Look up programme refugees too.

    Asylum seekers show up and immediately start getting paid and housing provided for them. And they aren't able to work. They fill out some paperwork and wait.

    Someone with financial resources and career prospects would be unlikely to go the Asylum route.

    In fairness, I can't find any criteria that is used in determining if someone is granted refugee status or not. Just that it's ~1% of applicants. Still, it would be about the worst possible way I could imagine of getting into a country and I can't imagine that some fancy hot-shot surgeon with 500k in the bank would bother with it. He'd show up on a tourist visa, find a job, apply for a work permit, fly out of the country when his tourist visa expired and wait for his work permit to be approved. Then he'd fly back to Ireland and start working.


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    #620
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    infosys wrote: »
    Last year Asylum applications the lowest in years 920 this year so far it will more than likely be less than 900 and dropping. Less than 10% get Asylum, not sure of current situation in relation to SP. But a person can have a valid claim to SP and not Asylum..

    Its not only about Ireland this is a Europe wide issue.

    What will it be like here when all of Europe is like Burnley.


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    #621
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Asylum seekers show up and immediately start getting paid and housing provided for them. And they aren't able to work. They fill out some paperwork and wait.

    Someone with financial resources and career prospects would be unlikely to go the Asylum route.

    In fairness, I can't find any criteria that is used in determining if someone is granted refugee status or not. Just that it's ~1% of applicants. Still, it would be about the worst possible way I could imagine of getting into a country and I can't imagine that some fancy hot-shot surgeon with 500k in the bank would bother with it. He'd show up on a tourist visa, find a job, apply for a work permit, fly out of the country when his tourist visa expired and wait for his work permit to be approved. Then he'd fly back to Ireland and start working.

    There is a scheme for surgeons he would not have to do what you set out. He would apply for the relevant visa and stamp and be granted same. Most non EU in ireland are here on a valid working permission either green card or stamp 1.

    The reason some are willing to try asylum is they have no other legal way, but as I pointed out applications are dropping every year since 2004. The only real issue is the length of time to make decision the system to make a decision is a mess.


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    #622
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    woodoo wrote: »
    Its not only about Ireland this is a Europe wide issue.

    What will it be like here when all of Europe is like Burnley.

    How many countries in EU are in the top 10 countries in the World for Asylum population.


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    #623
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    Austrialia has had 1.2 million immigrants arrive between 2000 and 2010, 25% of their population are migrants compared to Ireland's 12%. It's far easier to migrate to Australia than Ireland. While you may not like that it's a fact.

    They also according to their own estimates have in excess of 60,000 illegal workers. http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sh...7illegal.htm#c

    Ah but there is more land mass and more resources to support that.And australia have woken up to their earlier mistakes and are slowly gaining more control over the situation as they realise its at boiling point..


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    #624
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    UCDVet wrote: »
    If a person wants to come to Ireland, I feel like the only consideration should be whether or not it is in Ireland's best interest. Nobody can see the future, but we should do our best to accurately gauge what someone will contribute to the country.

    That seems like a very selfish policy. We'll take educated workers and benefit from the investment that their host countries have put into their education and training, but we'll turn our back of people fleeing for their lives?

    Harsh.


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    #625
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    Ah but there is more land mass and more resources to support that.And australia have woken up to their earlier mistakes and are slowly gaining more control over the situation as they realise its at boiling point..

    But you want us follow their policies, that was your view. When the error of the view is pointed out, you change again. To be honest unless you are willing to actually educate yourself on the issue, or at least take on board arguments, it's not really beneficial continuing the debate. Enjoy the New Year.


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    #626
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    infosys wrote: »
    How many countries in EU are in the top 10 countries in the World for Asylum population.

    Zero presumably.


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    #627
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Zero presumably.

    Actually 1 Germany, it's number 3 if I remember. The number one spot is Pakistan. Most of the worlds Refugees are not in fact in the West.

    Page 6 http://www.unhcr.org/52a722c49.html


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    #628
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    Were paying out enough in social welfare there are those who wont get off their asses,those who come here to get social welfare,and those who cannot get a job or havet the money to leave ireland..
    .

    You cannot arrive and claim. This is not the first time this has been pointed out to you.
    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    want a stop to it all until we sort our house out - i dont think that is
    unreasonable at all..

    Considering this would require us to withdraw from sections of the Geneva convention, over a relatively small number of persons, yes, it would be most unreasonable.


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    #629
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    woodoo wrote: »
    Its not only about Ireland this is a Europe wide issue.

    What will it be like here when all of Europe is like Burnley.

    What is Burnley supposed to be like?


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    #630
    camel jockey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭camel jockey


    OP, who said it was wrong to oppose mass immigration? Nodin and his ilk?


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    #631
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Nodin wrote: »
    What is Burnley supposed to be like?

    http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do?a=7&b=6275041&c=BB11+1JA&d=13&e=13&g=6440141&i=1x1003x1004&m=0&r=0&s=1388250237453&enc=1&dsFamilyId=47

    Pretty average I think for a city in England.


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