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Seifer

nesf wrote: »

That's a dictionary definition. Dictionary definitions of words aren't exactly very useful when it comes to CCG jargon, or jargon in general.

Gimmick in CCGs refers to a very specific way in which the deck either functions or is made. So Zoo cannot use many spells and needs tons of creatures that aren't colour/class specific. Ramp decks need to "cheat" the usual resource building that limits the speed of other decks. Crucially, they must differ markedly from "standard" deck archetypes and must be noticeably different to what's considered a "normal deck build". Usually the deck heavily leverages some mechanic, e.g. the old Warrior OTK deck which combined the Warrior's ability to give Charge with cheap giants.

Normally, after they've become accepted, they stop being called gimmick decks and get their own name. E.g. OTK Giants or Miracle Rogue or whatever. They're still gimmick decks though, they require to be built around some very, very narrow design principle. Ramp druid requires Wild Growth and maybe Nourish sure but it also has very specific mana curves attached to it, it's not merely a regular Druid midrange or control deck with 2 x Wild Growth added.


Some people throw around gimmick like it's a bad word in CCGs really it just means a deck has an extremely strong theme in how it was constructed when talking in the most general terms. Murloc Warlock is a good example, it's a gimmick deck simply because, well, it's a Murloc deck and really stands out from more typical ways to build decks in Hearthstone.

By that definition anything that isn't a "standard" deck is a gimmick but wait what's a "standard" deck? 15 spells and 15 creatures?

Rogue, for example, has Miracle, Tempo, Backspace as its current most popular variants. What's a standard rogue deck?

A gimmick deck would be something like Total Biscuit's all legendaries deck which is bad, has no real consistency but call still win occasionally.

Dictionary definitions aren't useful in gaming sure when a word has become warped from it's original meaning e.g. farming in an MMO/RPG sense but gimmick in this context is just being mis-used and not redefined.

Kirby

Seifer wrote: »

What do you think gimmick means?

Seifer wrote: »

What are you saying I'm wrong about? You still haven't told us what you think gimmick means.

Seifer wrote: »

Maybe you can link to the post where you define the word gimmick and explain how the miracle rogue deck fits that definition? Because I must've missed it.

Seifer wrote: »

Didn't think so; thanks for playing though.

Right, you are starting to irritate me now. Here, for your pleasure, are the numerous times I explained EXACTLY what a gimmick deck, in the last 3 pages alone. I've bolded certain bits and made the font really big. I can add in different colours too.

Kirby wrote: »

Miracle rogue is the epitome of a gimmick deck. The idea is to cycle through your whole deck until you have shadowstep and Leroy. It's effective and quite clever, but it's a gimmick. There is only one win condition, and every victory involves this combo. Me loving it or hating it doesn't change this fact and is rather irrelevant.

Kirby wrote: »

You play your minion, I play my taunt and so on. It's not about ONE single card. It's about a deck of them.

If you were to nerf a dozen random cards tomorrow, that wouldn't change. Be it playing Aggro or Control style, people would just use other cards and carry on as normal.

But One Turn kill decks operate entirely on a single card winning them the game. You nerf or remove ONE card and they fall completely flat. That's what makes it a gimmick. It's operating completely off a single mechanic.

And that's why it's rightfully called a gimmick. Remove any card you want from the Warrior deck and control warrior would just adapt and move on. Same for paladin. Or priest control. Same with handlock or Zoo.

If a deck relies on a single win condition, it's the epitome of a gimmick. Not that there is inherently anything wrong with that. I've played gimmick decks before too. But I know exactly what they are.

nesf

Seifer wrote: »

By that definition anything that isn't a "standard" deck is a gimmick but wait what's a "standard" deck? 15 spells and 15 creatures?

Rogue, for example, has Miracle, Tempo, Backspace as its current most popular variants. What's a standard rogue deck?

A gimmick deck would be something like Total Biscuit's all legendaries deck which is bad, has no real consistency but call still win occasionally.

Dictionary definitions aren't useful in gaming sure when a word has become warped from it's original meaning e.g. farming in an MMO/RPG sense but gimmick in this context is just being mis-used and not redefined.

Standard just means falls into one of the normal archetypes which both Tempo and Backspace do as Aggro decks. Miracle is very different to regular combo decks in Hearthstone in that it works and Blizzard haven't nerfed it to the ground yet. :P (more seriously, no other deck has anything like its midgame card draw ability which is where the gimmick of the deck is, rather than the Shadowstep Leeroy)

Nody

Talking about Rogue I went up against what I believe was a Miracle one with my trollololol mage secret deck; he was not happy (instead of bouncing back his creature he bounced back my spell bender, gave me 2x zero mana cost taunts while pumping up minions further etc.) :P

2x Mirror Entity
2x Mana Wyrm
2x Secrete Keeper
1x Bloodmage Thalnos
2x Mad Scientist
2x Aracane Intellect
2x Counterspell
1x Duplicate
2x Ice Barrier
2x Mirror Entity
2x Spellbender
2x Kirin Tor Mage
2x Fireball
2x Ethereal Arcanist
2x Water Elemental
1x Blizzard (may end up replacing this for Flame strike)
1x Ragnaros

It's a fun on the side deck that I highly recommend simply because it can really mess up your opponents plays!

Kirby

Kirby wrote: »

I might actually push for legendary for this month for the first time. I haven't tried since season 1 but there are no new games this month, so why not? :P

Kirby wrote: »

Good night tonight. Rank 6 and rising. Lots of time left in the month too so it's looking good.

Laddering makes me feel superior because I'm not using Miracle or Zoo. Actual effort!

Spoke too soon it seems. A week later and I cant get passed rank 5. I'll win a few, then lose a few. Then experiment and end up losing more.

About a third of the games I play against are against bots playing shaman or zoo. Kind of irritating. There are bots in legend rank. Tells you everything you need to know about the balance issues in the game.

Gbear

Kirby wrote: »

Spoke too soon it seems. A week later and I cant get passed rank 5. I'll win a few, then lose a few. Then experiment and end up losing more.

About a third of the games I play against are against bots playing shaman or zoo. Kind of irritating. There are bots in legend rank. Tells you everything you need to know about the balance issues in the game.

How do you know they're bots?

Ramza

Gbear wrote: »

How do you know they're bots?

Bots don't hover over cards, don't emote, and take exactly 3 seconds between every action, they're robotic. Easy to spot.

With regards to ladder, I haven't played HS in weeks, got to rank 5 in the first few days of the season and haven't played since. Got rank 1 last season, the ladder grind is VERY daunting, it just takes a lot of time which I don't usually have these days The higher ranks are for sure frustrating, there's times where I've gone on 10 game streaks at high ranks, and times where I will play for 6 hours straight and remain at the same rank (win 1, lose 1, etc)

I could play the new FOTM Hunter to legend but I just...cba :pac:

nesf

Do iPad users show hover over cards? Not emoting means little, I'll often forget to say hello and often say little else. Exactly the same time between plays would be the only reliable indicator there.

Ramza

Ipad users do hover over cards. I also think bots don't show targeting arrows. They can also play cards/hero powers without touching them (i.e, you won't see a red hover over the hero power when they use it, like you would if it was a human)

But the exact increments between plays is the dead giveaway, it's always exactly 3 seconds or something like that.

I also don't think the ability for bots to get to legend says anything about game balance, just more so about how important a solid positive winrate is (maybe 55% or higher, well achievable by a bot). There's more than likely a good number of decks a cleverly programmed AI could take to legend, it's just about time. If in theory you let the bot alone for a week or two on end (which is what most people do AFAIK, people usually leave bots on for days on end, while on holidays etc), it will likely hit legend or quite a high rank. But yeah, I will agree that it shows how strong certain decks are, Zoo is probably the most botted deck of all.

Most bots you'll meet on ladder will be some form of Zoo, Druid, or Shaman. Apparently these decks are quite straight forward and effective for the bot (play on curve, make good trades, win). It can't play more intricate decks like Miracle, Handlock, I've also never seen a midrange hunter or control warrior bot, so maybe those too. However, bots don't play around AOE or don't have an advanced understanding of the game in that regard. So many times as Hunter I've played Shaman bots who will flood the board coming up to turn 5, or not play around swipe etc. I've also seen bots act strange with certain druid cards, innervating into wild growths, or just innervating into an end turn. It doesn't understand certain cards, but it seems like Zoo, midrange shaman and any form of druid are the most botted decks

Nody

Ok, I'm making a full gold Murloc deck but as I've learned four of the cards are tied to class leveling (grrrr). So can someone suggest a good Priest deck with current meta?

Kirby

Yeah I spent all my dust on crafting gold cards. So puuurty.

Like you, my problem is that gold Taz'Dingo isn't craftable so the regular version sticks out. He is a level 58 rogue reward. Ain't nobody got time for that!

Nody

Kirby wrote: »

Yeah I spent all my dust on crafting gold cards. So puuurty.

Like you, my problem is that gold Taz'Dingo isn't craftable so the regular version sticks out. He is a level 58 rogue reward. Ain't nobody got time for that!

Well for Murlocks it's Priest (53), Rogue (52), Paladin (54) & Warlock (52)

Ramza

Golden Old Murk Eye is the hardest card to get AFAIK with regards to how many cards it takes (all golden murlocs, which involves leveling Priest, Pally, Warlock and Rogue, as well as crafting golden versions of all the other expert set murlocs)! Crazy stuff

Kirby wrote: »

He is a level 58 rogue reward. Ain't nobody got time for that!

Best card is golden Oasis Snapjaw for leveling Druid, so shiny and sexy looking

Tar.Aldarion

Nody wrote: »

Well for Murlocks it's Priest (53), Rogue (52), Paladin (54) & Warlock (52)

oh god my paladin and rogue is low, rest are high enough but they'll take a while

Joshua J

Got my first "The Dream" today. Was very pleased with myself. It doesent show but I had Antonidas and Rag, who just got value all the way.


Edit: Other cards were Lord of the arena, Blizzard and Flamestrike.

Big Knox

Joshua J wrote: »

Got my first "The Dream" today. Was very pleased with myself. It doesent show but I had Antonidas and Rag, who just got value all the way.


Edit: Other cards were Lord of the arena, Blizzard and Flamestrike.

Congrats on the 12 wins but eh "The Dream" is actually 12 - 0 :P

Seriously though well done, 12 wins isn't easy!

Joshua J

Big Knox wrote: »

Congrats on the 12 wins but eh "The Dream" is actually 12 - 0 :P

Seriously though well done, 12 wins isn't easy!

Hahaha my bad, just got swept up in the moment. You're right though. Ta.

Big Knox

Joshua J wrote: »

Hahaha my bad, just got swept up in the moment. You're right though. Ta.

12 - 1 for your first 12 win is excellent. Do you play constructed or mainly Arena?

Tar.Aldarion

12-0 is just the dream after the 12 dream comes true
After my 12-1 I haven't played arena since :eek:

Big Knox

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

12-0 is just the dream after the 12 dream comes true
After my 12-1 I haven't played arena since :eek:

I went the opposite. When I hit my first 12 win I gave up on Constructed until I finally got my 12 - 0 and haven't gone back to constructed since!

Currently running infinite arenas with plenty of gold to spare (was handy for naxx) and told myself I'd get back into constructed after naxx but I can't pull myself away from Arena!

Tar.Aldarion

Problem with constructed is after legend what do you do, no reward, it does make it kinda boring for me so maybe I'll try some arenas, kinda forgot they even existed

Wossack

I'd like to get better at arena, but I get very dejected when Im only scraping 4:3's

Tar.Aldarion

4/3s are fine to keep you going until you get better, no worse than constructed goldwise really.

Joshua J

Big Knox wrote: »

12 - 1 for your first 12 win is excellent. Do you play constructed or mainly Arena?

Mainly arena. I haven't put money into it so just do the daily quests for the gold to do arenas i think they're more fun. I enjoy drafting mostly. I got to lvl 8 or so a few seasons back with Trumps F2P Shaman deck but the grind started to get kinda tedious. Well that win got me gold for three more arenas so am happy out

Gbear

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

4/3s are fine to keep you going until you get better, no worse than constructed goldwise really.

You only need to win 3 to break even with just buying packs. With daily challenges as well you can keep quite a lot of gold ticking over.

Wossack

managed 5:3 last night with a paly deck - the lost games were all really close (1 or 2 hp in it in 2 games - smushed in the last one though). Was 3:0 at stage point too, so happy with that

Kirby

I prefer constructed and always have but there is something to be said for the unpredictability of Arena. It's nice to have no idea whats coming next from your opponent.

Gbear

Yippee!


I've decided that the most important thing in arena is having lots of 2 mana minions.

I've found Paladin to be the easiest to get to 12 wins and I'd say access to Argent Protectors and Aldor Peacekeepers is a very large part of that.

I didn't even need any Concecrations because I never lost control of the board.

The only loss came to a hunter with who used a Hunters Mark, Vulture, UTH combo to completely turn the game around but that's going to get nerfed sooner or later (Hunters Mark in particular) so I'm not to worried about that.

Kirby

Gbear wrote: »

The only loss came to a hunter with who used a Hunters Mark, Vulture, UTH combo to completely turn the game around but that's going to get nerfed sooner or later (Hunters Mark in particular) so I'm not to worried about that.

Buzzard could be fixed by changing it to "draw a card for every beast at the end of the turn. And change Hunter's mark to 1 mana. It's ridiculous that its free.

Nice Arena run btw.

Gbear

Kirby wrote: »

Buzzard could be fixed by changing it to "draw a card for every beast at the end of the turn. And change Hunter's mark to 1 mana. It's ridiculous that its free.

Nice Arena run btw.

Making it 1 mana would make it strictly worse value than Execute though.

I did see an interesting idea on Reddit that they could change it to something like "reduce health by 4" or something like that.