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Happily married guy, but niggly feeling for years. Any advice?
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How do to know, he hasn't asked her.
He doesn't feel he can even bring it up - which many of us feel isn't a good thing, that a conversation can't even be had.
No no, it's not that the conversation CAN'T be had. It's that the OP isn't prepared or doesn't want to deal with the consequences of that conversation being had. He says his wife would kill him if she ever found out he had such fantasies. That's a little exaggerated for me tbh, I doubt she'd kill him, but I've no doubt she would be incredibly hurt by his admission.0 -
It's not just an open minded conversation about sex though, is it? The OP has fantasies about performing oral sex on another man. What sane wife would want to hear that? Where does it stop? When is enough enough?
That's pretty judgemental. You'd be surprised how many wives would be ok with it and use it as a fantasy too- watching gay porn together, reading erotica that had these elements of his fantasy in there, dirty talk utilising it... It's not just about physically replicating it during sex together. And yet if someone was ok with her partner telling her this she's insane?
I think that a lot of people are defending themselves- "I wouldn't like it, therefore everyone else is weird". That's not how human sexuality works.
There's a few issues in the thread as I see it:
1) Cheating. We've all agreed (bar one person) that to cheat would be awful. It breaks the boundaries of the relationship and that's not ok.
2) Confusion around discussing something and doing something. Two very different things!
3) Biphobia. It's like if a guy who is in a committed happy relationship with a woman starts to fantasise about being with a man, he needs to not discuss it, lest he be seen as weird.0 -
bodice ripper wrote: »What I meant was I think we would be talking far more about the pain this could cause the gay man.
You know we have had threads from women questioning their sexuality where we suggest they share it with their husband and see what, if anything, they can do to help her figure it out.
This is the last example I recall, and it's not as on point because her husband already knew and was supportive, but the overall sentiment was that they she should try and work through it with him
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20569834120 -
You know we have had threads from women questioning their sexuality where we suggest they share it with their husband and see what, if anything, they can do to help her figure it out.
This is the last example I recall, and it's not as on point because her husband already knew and was supportive, but the overall sentiment was that they she should try and work through it with him
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056983412
See the important difference there floggg? Her husband already knew. The OP here, his wife never had a clue. The OP has also pre-judged and written off his wife as "she wouldn't understand" before she's even had a chance to offer her opinion. So, the discussion hasn't even got off the starting blocks because of what the OP thinks, not his wife.0 -
Ahh floggg, I laughed, but tbf you're being a bit disingenuous. Look again at what the OP said in their opening post-
His wife isn't even aware of this fantasy as he knows already that even though she has been very supportive in every other way, on this one issue he doesn't feel she would support him. Well no shìt Sherlock.
He therefore has three choices -
Cheat on his wife with another man in order to fulfill his fantasy.
Separate from his wife and fulfill his fantasy.
Learn to accept that no human being has ever been born that doesn't have an unfulfilled fantasy of some sort and for those that do chase the fulfillment of their fantasies, there will always be that one fantasy or that one extra step they wanted to go that would push the envelope.
The third option would seem like the most reasonable and mature course of action.
Option one and two are non-starters apparently for the OP, and the fourth and fifth options of a threesome or open relationship are non starters for his wife.
The OP in this instance will have to sacrifice the fulfillment of a fantasy for the fulfillment he has from his wife. It may be a fantasy that'll never go away, but it's one that the OP will have to learn to accept exists rather than beat themselves up about it.
There is a sixth option you seemed to ignore. The talk, she listens to him, she doesn't necessarily feel comfortable doing any of 1, 2, 4, 5 or 7 (some sort of simulation play) but at least they are there for each other and if he ever gets it in his head again that he might need to explore the fantasy even if it meant cheating he can just open up to her a bit and talk things through rather than have to go to strangers online, one of whom might talk him into it.
I gather we won't see eye to eye on this ever. We clearly have differing views on sex, sexuality and marriage.
We can go back and forth as long as we want but the end of the day we won't get anywhere.0 -
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See the important difference there floggg? Her husband already knew. The OP here, his wife never had a clue. The OP has also pre-judged and written off his wife as "she wouldn't understand" before she's even had a chance to offer her opinion. So, the discussion hasn't even got off the starting blocks because of what the OP thinks, not his wife.
You mean that important difference I acknowledged in my post?
No, I must have missed it.
I never said they were directly comparable - in fact I acknowledged that they weren't.
I was simply making the point that the essence of the advice was work it through together - one poster even said go talk to your husband before he saw the OP had already done so.0 -
baby and crumble wrote: »That's pretty judgemental. You'd be surprised how many wives would be ok with it and use it as a fantasy too- watching gay porn together, reading erotica that had these elements of his fantasy in there, dirty talk utilising it... It's not just about physically replicating it during sex together. And yet if someone was ok with her partner telling her this she's insane?
I actually wouldn't be surprised tbh b&c, I know well it's fairly common, but lets not kid ourselves as to just HOW common homosexual fantasies are shared among heterosexual couples. It's hardly common enough that it's the norm as you're trying to make out.
I posed the question, "What sane wife wants to hear that her husband wants to perform oral sex on another man?". I didn't suggest that she would be insane if she entertained the idea, I asked what sane wife would WANT to hear that her husband wants to perform oral sex on another man. It's taking quite a leap to imagine her first thought would be "Ohh YES! I married a man who now decides to tell me he wants to perform oral sex on another man! How exciting!".
The OP is seeking approval from strangers on the internet that it would be ok for him to take this from beyond the realms of fantasy into the world of reality. I think there's a hell of a lot more to consider. Fantasies never have consequences, unlike making fantasies a reality however which has all manner of consequences.I think that a lot of people are defending themselves- "I wouldn't like it, therefore everyone else is weird". That's not how human sexuality works.
No, but that is how some people's minds work, you don't agree with someone else's justification for their thoughts because it simply doesn't agree with how you think. The OP posed the issue looking for advice and from what I recall, it was moved from Relationship Issues to the LGBT forum. However, even in the LGBT forum, not everyone subscribes to the "It's just sex baby" ideology. They understand that there are more people will be affected than the OP should he choose to make his fantasy a reality.
Human sexuality may be fluid, but an individuals ethics and morality- not so much. Are we not still allowed to express our opinions in a civil manner just because we disagree? Isn't that what you are accusing this man's wife of doing, shutting him down because he assumes she won't agree with him, even though he has never even given her the opportunity to have an opinion because he has already written her off that she will find his fantasy objectionable.There's a few issues in the thread as I see it:
1) Cheating. We've all agreed (bar one person) that to cheat would be awful. It breaks the boundaries of the relationship and that's not ok.
See? We're all judgemental, yes, even you b&c. We can either be positively judgemental, or negatively judgemental, I have no issue with admitting I'm judgemental. I do it all the time. Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it.
So, cheating may not rate too high on your moral and ethical compass, but it clearly doesn't bother people as much as this thread would have anyone believe. It's certainly far more within the bounds of normality than a heterosexual married man wanting to play hide the sausage with another man.
The discussion of monogamy as a social construct that is unnatural and peculiar to human species shouldn't need to be pointed out to someone who understands human sexuality.2) Confusion around discussing something and doing something. Two very different things!
The OP doesn't just want to discuss it though, they WANT to do it, but what's stopping them is themselves, because they don't want to cheat on their wife, and it is the OP that doesn't want to have that discussion with his wife, because he already assumes that she will find the very thought of it objectionable.
You talk about cheating breaking the bounds of a relationship, well when you choose to marry someone, I'm sure you're also well aware of the fact that you choose to love and cherish them, forsaking all others. I think expressing your desire to have sex with another man falls within that boundary. There's no issue with a person fantasising about it, let's not get into the realms of "thought police", but expressing a strong desire to act out that fantasy that you've kept hidden from the other person for years- that's going to hurt the other person in the marriage, and hurt them hard, in the worst ways possible- emotionally, mentally, spiritually and psychologically.
As I mentioned already, the OP shouldn't expect that his wife will ever look at him the same way again. His wife didn't sign up for that, and the OP kept this game changing little nugget of information from her. The OP was not only deceptive, but they were only thinking of themselves in keeping this information hidden and not giving his girlfriend the opportunity to make a decision with ALL the information to hand, before she chose to become his wife. He never gave his wife a chance to say no, and she married him based on a false premise that he put forward.
How can anyone judge his wife to be selfish and uncompromising about something she was never made aware of in the first place?3) Biphobia. It's like if a guy who is in a committed happy relationship with a woman starts to fantasise about being with a man, he needs to not discuss it, lest he be seen as weird.
It's only the OP again has made that assumption. The OP is the person who is unwilling to have that discussion with his wife, because he's more worried about what the consequences will be for him- "My wife would kill me". I genuinely do wonder has he given any serious thought to the consequences of this admission from his wife's point of view or is it just all about the consequences for him, again.
I don't see the OP as weird, we cannot control how we think (the more information we gather however, helps us form a more controlled and measured conclusion), I do see them as continuing to be deceptive and dishonest, with the one person whom they profess to care about and love.
The only way the OP will ever be happy is when his wife encourages him to have sex with another man. I can't see that happening, and it would be insane to think it will, based on the information the OP has presented here of course.0 -
There is a sixth option you seemed to ignore. The talk, she listens to him, she doesn't necessarily feel comfortable doing any of 1, 2, 4, 5 or 7 (some sort of simulation play) but at least they are there for each other and if he ever gets it in his head again that he might need to explore the fantasy even if it meant cheating he can just open up to her a bit and talk things through rather than have to go to strangers online, one of whom might talk him into it.
It's not that his wife is unwilling to listen. They haven't even got that far because it's the OP refuses to discuss it with his wife, instead preferring to seek the opinions of strangers who would be unaffected by his decision, than the person whom it would secondly most effect besides himself. His only concern seems to be the consequences for himself.
As for the idea of a position by position list of what's acceptable and what's not, well really now, when's the last time you sat down in the living room with your boyfriend, foolscap and pen in hand to have a conversation about sex? Talk about mood killer! It'd be like actually reading one of those sex manuals or "100 ways to please your lover". I could only ever read the first few before I said "fcuk that!", because talking about it, and theorising about it, and discussing it, all mean nothing when it comes down to doing it. Do you think a virgin would ever have a clear idea about sex from books or from talking about it? No, I wouldn't think so either.I gather we won't see eye to eye on this ever. We clearly have differing views on sex, sexuality and marriage.
We'd actually be fairly similar in our views, but it's the OP and his wife wouldn't share similar views to ours, and I'm thinking about the issue from both their perspectives rather than my own. That's why perhaps the thread was moved from Relationship Issues to LGBT, to allow for discussion, rather than the way RI works which is meant for advice and support directed at the OP, rather than general perspectives on any given issue.We can go back and forth as long as we want but the end of the day we won't get anywhere.
It may not look like it, but I've reached a better understanding of some posters from reading the last 16 pages of just this thread alone. I know nobodys so black and white and this is just one specific set of circumstances, but that'd be the 1, 3, 7 etc you were talking about. That shìt takes time, and you're quite correct floggg, we don't all have all the time in the world to be devoting ourselves to making out lists of what is or isn't morally or ethically on the level by our own individual standards.0 -
It's not that his wife is unwilling to listen. They haven't even got that far because it's the OP refuses to discuss it with his wife, instead preferring to seek the opinions of strangers who would be unaffected by his decision, than the person whom it would secondly most effect besides himself. His only concern seems to be the consequences for himself.
As for the idea of a position by position list of what's acceptable and what's not, well really now, when's the last time you sat down in the living room with your boyfriend, foolscap and pen in hand to have a conversation about sex? Talk about mood killer! It'd be like actually reading one of those sex manuals or "100 ways to please your lover". I could only ever read the first few before I said "fcuk that!", because talking about it, and theorising about it, and discussing it, all mean nothing when it comes down to doing it. Do you think a virgin would ever have a clear idea about sex from books or from talking about it? No, I wouldn't think so either.
We'd actually be fairly similar in our views, but it's the OP and his wife wouldn't share similar views to ours, and I'm thinking about the issue from both their perspectives rather than my own. That's why perhaps the thread was moved from Relationship Issues to LGBT, to allow for discussion, rather than the way RI works which is meant for advice and support directed at the OP, rather than general perspectives on any given issue.
It may not look like it, but I've reached a better understanding of some posters from reading the last 16 pages of just this thread alone. I know nobodys so black and white and this is just one specific set of circumstances, but that'd be the 1, 3, 7 etc you were talking about. That shìt takes time, and you're quite correct floggg, we don't all have all the time in the world to be devoting ourselves to making out lists of what is or isn't morally or ethically on the level by our own individual standards.
Where the **** did I mention a list? Or a pen and paper?
It's a simple conversation, you talk it through and see where you have common ground. It's really not that hard.0 -
Where the **** did I mention a list? Or a pen and paper?
It's a simple conversation, you talk it through and see where you have common ground. It's really not that hard.
You'll have to forgive me, I seem to have misunderstood the point you were making here-There is a sixth option you seemed to ignore. The talk, she listens to him, she doesn't necessarily feel comfortable doing any of 1, 2, 4, 5 or 7 (some sort of simulation play)
I thought when you were talking about 1, 2, 4, 5 or 7 that it was some sort of a numbered list that had to be written down as a yes/no/maybe for the next time they were to have sex.
I wouldn't think it a "simple conversation" either for a man to discuss the idea with his wife that he would like to have sex with another man. Deciding what to have for dinner is a simple conversation. Talking about deviant sexual fantasies is anything but simple and must be approached with due consideration for his wife, not just dismissing it as "she wouldn't understand".
I think the OP can't tell the difference between a lack of understanding, and a lack of acceptance. I'm sure his wife could be helped to understand his fantasies, but that doesn't mean she should have to accept or entertain them when she was not made aware that the OP had these fantasies before she married him.
The more we know about somebody, the more informed we are to make a decision as to whether we can compromise our own ideologies to accommodate their ideologies, and the person putting forward those ideologies should be prepared to allow for the fact that another person's ideologies may not gel with theirs.0 -
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You'll have to forgive me, I seem to have misunderstood the point you were making here-
I thought when you were talking about 1, 2, 4, 5 or 7 that it was some sort of a numbered list that had to be written down as a yes/no/maybe for the next time they were to have sex.
I wouldn't think it a "simple conversation" either for a man to discuss the idea with his wife that he would like to have sex with another man. Deciding what to have for dinner is a simple conversation. Talking about deviant sexual fantasies is anything but simple and must be approached with due consideration for his wife, not just dismissing it as "she wouldn't understand".
I think the OP can't tell the difference between a lack of understanding, and a lack of acceptance. I'm sure his wife could be helped to understand his fantasies, but that doesn't mean she should have to accept or entertain them when she was not made aware that the OP had these fantasies before she married him.
The more we know about somebody, the more informed we are to make a decision as to whether we can compromise our own ideologies to accommodate their ideologies, and the person putting forward those ideologies should be prepared to allow for the fact that another person's ideologies may not gel with theirs.
Deviant?
Go **** yourself. Though that line of thinking does appear to be colouring your thinking on this.0 -
Dr. Shrike wrote: »Interesting way of putting it.
What do you consider the limits of non-deviant sex?
I wouldn't have thought it's use so interesting, how and ever, that behaviour which deviates from the norm would be considered deviant behaviour. Do the majority of heterosexual married men normally have sexual fantasies about performing oral sex on another man? Not to my knowledge. I'd appreciate the education if you could show me anything that would contradict that assertion, but for now I'm working off the assumption that none shall be forthcoming.
The word "deviant" itself isn't a derogatory term for a behaviour, it's a term used to describe any behaviour that wouldn't be considered the norm. It's the "norm" that differs for every individual based on their moral and ethical persuasions.Deviant?
Go **** yourself. Though that line of thinking does appear to be colouring your thinking on this.
"Mature discussion about sex" they said.
"Go fcuk yourself" they said.0 -
Deviant?
Go **** yourself. Though that line of thinking does appear to be colouring your thinking on this.I wouldn't have thought it's use so interesting, how and ever, that behaviour which deviates from the norm would be considered deviant behaviour. Do the majority of heterosexual married men normally have sexual fantasies about performing oral sex on another man? Not to my knowledge. I'd appreciate the education if you could show me anything that would contradict that assertion, but for now I'm working off the assumption that none shall be forthcoming.
The word "deviant" itself isn't a derogatory term for a behaviour, it's a term used to describe any behaviour that wouldn't be considered the norm. It's the "norm" that differs for every individual based on their moral and ethical persuasions.
"Mature discussion about sex" they said.
"Go fcuk yourself" they said.
No more snide comments or personal attacks guys, this is your one and only warning, you're both here long enough to know better.0 -
I wouldn't have thought it's use so interesting, how and ever, that behaviour which deviates from the norm would be considered deviant behaviour. Do the majority of heterosexual married men normally have sexual fantasies about performing oral sex on another man? Not to my knowledge. I'd appreciate the education if you could show me anything that would contradict that assertion, but for now I'm working off the assumption that none shall be forthcoming.
The word "deviant" itself isn't a derogatory term for a behaviour, it's a term used to describe any behaviour that wouldn't be considered the norm. It's the "norm" that differs for every individual based on their moral and ethical persuasions.
"Mature discussion about sex" they said.
"Go fcuk yourself" they said.
If you are smart enough to understand deviation in a statistical sense you are smart enough to know that the term is very rarely used in the statistical sense when used to describe homosexual behaviour.0 -
If you are smart enough to understand deviation in a statistical sense you are smart enough to know that the term is very rarely used in the statistical sense when used to describe homosexual behaviour.
Indeed. It stands to reason that people will take offence when it is attached to a homosexual act.0 -
If you are smart enough to understand deviation in a statistical sense you are smart enough to know that the term is very rarely used in the statistical sense when used to describe homosexual behaviour.
I hadn't meant to get into an argument over word play and their meanings floggg tbh, but we're not talking about homosexual behaviour here either. We are referencing a homosexual act. In order for it to be described as a behaviour it would need to be a consistent series of acts, or a pattern.
The OP describes a fantasy common, but not limited to, homosexual behaviour. This doesn't mean the OP themselves could be described as homosexual or even bisexual, and from the description of the fantasy given, the focus seems merely to be on sexual gratification from the derivation of pleasure from performing oral sex on a another man.
The OP hasn't given any indication that they have developed the fantasy beyond merely the one off sexual act, so to be so quick to claim it a homosexual behaviour, or that I was being in any way derogatory towards homosexual men, is disingenuous at best, completely misrepresentative at worst.0
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