Dublin Bus strike from Sunday 04/08 [called off - service resumes 07/08]

Peppa Pig · 17-08-2013 12:00am

cdebru wrote: »

do the maths

adult 188 a week
dependant 124
each child 29.80

plus rent allowance upto 1000 a month

2 adults 2 kids plus rent allowance, is over 30k a year, a bus driver is taking home about 28k

that is not counting medical card, back to school etc etc.

Social welfare is taxed

Devilman40k · 17-08-2013 12:03am

cdebru wrote: »

do the maths

adult 188 a week
dependant 124
each child 29.80

plus rent allowance upto 1000 a month

2 adults 2 kids plus rent allowance, is over 30k a year, a bus driver is taking home about 28k

that is not counting medical card, back to school etc etc.

If said driver was smart he could apply for FIS and take his €480pw (net) income up to €564pw (which is not counted for medical card - which he would get at €480pw considering his €250pw rent costs)

So saying he'd be better off on the dole is crazy (€372 + €250 is €512pw both have a medical card)

Fred Swanson · 17-08-2013 12:06am

This post has been deleted.

Peppa Pig · 17-08-2013 12:16am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In the above example about 6 or 7 grand would be lost to tax, so it would be significantly lower than a take home pay.
Never mind the pension contributions ........
Or DB allowances ......
Or overtime ......

If an argument is going to be made, at least all the factors should be taken into account.

It's nonsense that a driver is better off on the dole.

cdebru · 17-08-2013 12:24am

Devilman40k wrote: »

If said driver was smart he could apply for FIS and take his €480pw (net) income up to €564pw (which is not counted for medical card - which he would get at €480pw considering his €250pw rent costs)

So saying he'd be better off on the dole is crazy (€372 + €250 is €512pw both have a medical card)

it is marginal at best, there are costs associated with actually going to work even on your figures it is 52 euro, take fuel, lunch etc away and you better off on the dole.

Peppa Pig · 17-08-2013 12:29am

cdebru wrote: »

it is marginal at best, there are costs associated with actually going to work even on your figures it is 52 euro, take fuel, lunch etc away and you better off on the dole.

Do people on the dole not eat lunch?

cdebru · 17-08-2013 12:30am

Devilman40k wrote: »

If said driver was smart he could apply for FIS and take his €480pw (net) income up to €564pw (which is not counted for medical card - which he would get at €480pw considering his €250pw rent costs)

So saying he'd be better off on the dole is crazy (€372 + €250 is €512pw both have a medical card)

372 +250 is 612 and 28,000 by 52 weeks is roughly 540 not 480,

even if you had added correctly there is the expense of actually going to work and working a full week for 52 euro extra before added expenses is not better off but like i said you added it wrong it is 612 a week, so not crazy.

Devilman40k · 17-08-2013 12:31am

cdebru wrote: »

372 +250 is 612 and 28,000 by 52 weeks is roughly 540 not 480,

even if you had added correctly there is the expense of actually going to work and working a full week for 52 euro extra before added expenses is not better off but like i said you added it wrong it is 612 a week, so not crazy.

apologies you are correct...its late, been at screen all bloody day coding

cdebru · 17-08-2013 12:32am

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Do people on the dole not eat lunch?

they can do so at home which is generally cheaper, either way his figures were wrong, 372 +250 is 612.

Devilman40k · 17-08-2013 12:33am

cdebru wrote: »

they can do so at home which is generally cheaper, either way his figures were wrong, 372 +250 is 612.

although 28000 after tax is 480 pw

still point is moot, 612 not 512 so driver should get another job

Icepick · 17-08-2013 12:34am

cdebru wrote: »

what long term stability ? What short term gain ?

Who is brainwashed? Who is brainwashing them ?

brainwashed - employees
brainwashing - unions & others who think that the tax payer can be sponged off forever

cdebru · 17-08-2013 12:40am

Devilman40k wrote: »

although 28000 after tax is 480 pw still point is moot, 612 not 512 so driver should get another job

28,000 is take home after tax,

or just go on the dole at least then the labour party would defend you if they tried cutting you.

Devilman40k · 17-08-2013 12:47am

cdebru wrote: »

28,000 is take home after tax,

or just go on the dole at least then the labour party would defend you if they tried cutting you.

Bigger issue now is , where will DB get the savings from, it looks like fare increases and service cuts at this stage. Problem there is less people will use it and the cycle continues, many already now realise they can get by without bus

I know with the last strike I was worried about getting to/from work - 2 buses each way, however I walked it ...was fine for me and the difference in time spent walking was the wait I had on the linking buses. I dare say many others will have noticed this too (in fact I have never seen as many people cycling /walking as I did that Tuesday)

If DB goes out on strike again next week I cant see there being too many people sympathising

cdebru · 17-08-2013 2:01am

Icepick wrote: »

brainwashed - employees
brainwashing - unions & others who think that the tax payer can be sponged off forever

How do you make out the employees are sponging of the tax payer ?

they are working in a lot of cases for less money than they could get from social welfare.

The government wants them to provide a service but is not funding it, if anyone is being sponged off it is the employees who are expected to fund the difference between what the government wants to pay and what it costs.

cdebru · 17-08-2013 2:13am

Devilman40k wrote: »

Bigger issue now is , where will DB get the savings from, it looks like fare increases and service cuts at this stage. Problem there is less people will use it and the cycle continues, many already now realise they can get by without bus

I know with the last strike I was worried about getting to/from work - 2 buses each way, however I walked it ...was fine for me and the difference in time spent walking was the wait I had on the linking buses. I dare say many others will have noticed this too (in fact I have never seen as many people cycling /walking as I did that Tuesday)

If DB goes out on strike again next week I cant see there being too many people sympathising

Unfortunately, DB only see 3 ways to sort out its funding issues, cut services, cut wages or increase fares, none of these are a realistic solution.

They refuse to look at their revenue and the massive fare evasion, they don't seem to know it even exists, they refuse to look at management structures, there is another issue I cant mention as it is deemed off topic but there is a thread here about it elephant in the room.

I agree with you that it is a cycle and it has to stop, drivers really don't have anymore to give, neither do passengers nor can the service sustain more cuts.

Vahevala · 17-08-2013 8:43am

If they don't want the job, leave, there are plenty of people out there who will happily take their jobs.

Greed comes to mind.

Hilly Bill · 17-08-2013 9:44am

Vahevala wrote: »

If they don't want the job, leave, there are plenty of people out there who will happily take their jobs.

Greed comes to mind.

And they will also do the same if their wages get cut.

Vahevala · 17-08-2013 10:06am

What about the passengers who live too far from work to walk, or they don't drive or don't have any hope of getting to work and their jobs will be at risk because of this strike and can't afford taxis.

I hate the fact that these drivers can hold us all to ransom like this. It actually makes me sick if I am honest.

LXFlyer · 17-08-2013 10:24am

cdebru wrote: »

Unfortunately, DB only see 3 ways to sort out its funding issues, cut services, cut wages or increase fares, none of these are a realistic solution.

They refuse to look at their revenue and the massive fare evasion, they don't seem to know it even exists, they refuse to look at management structures, there is another issue I cant mention as it is deemed off topic but there is a thread here about it elephant in the room.

I agree with you that it is a cycle and it has to stop, drivers really don't have anymore to give, neither do passengers nor can the service sustain more cuts.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

And they will also do the same if their wages get cut.

Let's be honest about this - most people in the private sector have had their wages cut in the past 3 years - and they've had to do it for companies to survive.

When a recession happens and there is a massive drop in revenue, companies have to cut back - wages is always the principal area as that is generally the highest cost. You can do that through redundancy and cutting hours, but you also have to look at the labour cost itself.

In the two companies I worked in over the last 10 years, staff took a 5-10% pay cut. Frankly we had no option - if we didn't, neither company would have survived. That is the bottom line.

Companies need to look at all aspects of their operations in a recession - revenue, costs, and the scale of operations. No company lives in a vacuum.

If people are naïve enough to think that clamping down on fare evasion will make up €11.7m then they are living in la-la land frankly. There is a trade-off between the additional costs of having extra RPU staff -v- the marginal revenue that would result in. I suspect having regular blitzes might be more effective. But costs have to reduce and that is the reality every company faces.

The company has no control over the amount of state funding that it gets - that is down to the NTA and the DSP. Again the reality is that with reduced services, that funding should drop proportionately.

No one realistically expects public transport to deliver a profit. However, it should be delivered in the most cost effective, flexible and efficient manner possible. Being honest about it, that is not currently the case. Analysing those financials, the wage cost is just too high in percentage terms, and it is unsustainable. The transport companies need to move with the times, and the workforce needs to wake up to the reality which the companies are facing, which frankly is their ongoing competitiveness and survival. It doesn't look like that penny has dropped with many Dublin Bus workers.

Peppa Pig · 17-08-2013 10:26am

€28,000 net is a basic of €35,000 for a public servant (married with 2 kids). Is a drivers income really so low ?

bmaxi · 17-08-2013 12:09pm

cdebru wrote: »

they are working in a lot of cases for less money than they could get from social welfare.

If you feel that way then I suggest you try Social Welfare and let somebody else come off it, this would seem an ideal solution and at the same time not discommode those who want to go to work. You may, however, become less than enchanted with your leisurely lifestyle sooner than you think
One thing is sure, the longer this crap goes on the more certain it is that the next step will be redundancies and cuts in service, who is that going to suit?

StreetLight · 17-08-2013 1:33pm

Peppa Pig wrote: »

€28,000 net is a basic of €35,000 for a public servant (married with 2 kids). Is a drivers income really so low ?

Yes. As I mentioned before, it's around the average industrial wage.

It'll be interesting to see if the same vitriol being levelled at drivers here will also be shown against other grades (clerical, maintenance, etc.) should they also reject the proposals when they are balloted next week.

StreetLight · 17-08-2013 1:39pm

lxflyer wrote: »

If people are naïve enough to think that clamping down on fare evasion will make up €11.7m then they are living in la-la land frankly.

But it would certainly help. Cutting ten chief inspectors would save a million euro at the drop of a hat.

devnull · 17-08-2013 1:42pm

But you would have to pay them redundancy, which would cost quite a bit in the short term, and short term is the biggest problem.

gazzer · 17-08-2013 2:03pm

Is the €35000 gross figure the average wage for a driver or the max? Its a pretty good wage in fairness. Am I right in saying this core wage is not been touched?

StreetLight · 17-08-2013 2:21pm

gazzer wrote: »

Is the €35000 gross figure the average wage for a driver or the max? Its a pretty good wage in fairness. Am I right in saying this core wage is not been touched?

That's a basic flat wage including shift allowance, no overtime.

gazzer · 17-08-2013 2:29pm

StreetLight wrote: »

That's a basic flat wage including shift allowance, no overtime.

So that wage is not been cut? Its just the overtime rates that are been reduced?

StreetLight · 17-08-2013 2:35pm

gazzer wrote: »

So that wage is not been cut? Its just the overtime rates that are been reduced?

Correct. The problem is that DB relies so much on drivers doing overtime to cover basic duties. If the rate is cut, drivers say it won't be worth doing the overtime - they would just be working for the taxman.