Rock & Roll Dublin City marathon - photogs wanted

keps

CabanSail wrote: »

To give you an idea, when I was shooting the Berlin Marathon I shot over 21thousand individual images on the day. 15K of them on one body. That's 10% of shutter life in a day.

Can I ask what you did with these 21k images?

keps

The D2H is a 10 year old DINOSAUR.

Corkbah

Jonnykitedude wrote: »

Corkbah I have called your bluff, accept it!
Anyway I have wasted enough of my time on this.

If you ever do have a real job and want somebody, look me up

it wasn't a bluff ..it was a legit offer to two boards members, both of which have said they are unwilling/unable to do it, doesn't matter what the excuse.
you could have made €200 for around 2hrs of "work"...but you declined due to work commitments.

earlier in the thread it was stated that its better to be out taking photos and earning a couple of euro than sitting on the couch/complaining on boards....neither of you were willing to take up the offer because despite the fact that you would probably be doing nothing at the specific time - you have said you are on annual leave wed-fri which essentially means that you are unwilling to earn money from photography unless it suits you.

for someone that works 6/7 days a week - and a few nights (occasionally), I value when I have time off and prefer to "sit on the couch" or "complain on boards", today(Sat) is my second day off in over three(3) months of working 7 days a week, at least it is a day off unless I get a text/call asking me to work - I love my job and work as often as its offered but to be honest if its not offered I try to make the most of my time off and relax.... would you do your day-job 7 days a week ? or at the drop of a hat if you receive a call are you available to work within the hour ...such is the life of a freelance photographer, my income has dropped over €60K since 2009 (actually it dropped by around €60K in 2009 and has been around the mid/late 30's since then)... photography was a decent respectable business but over the years since the introduction of digital there has been a huge rise in the amount of people not being able to value a job/their time...this has in effect caused people to question the fee's claiming "joe bloggs" can do it for half the price - but "joe bloggs" image and the image taken by the experienced pro were not always the same, people's expectations of quality have dropped as many people do not know what they want ...except a picture that looks nice.

Corkbah

CabanSail wrote: »

I used to do some work for MarathonFoto and found them to be very good.

The other mobs may pay a bit more BUT they make you use your own gear. MF supply the gear and pay you to shoot for them. They use Nikon D2H bodies, and you normally have a spare.

If using your own gear you need to take in to account the cost per actuation on your shutter. To give you an idea, when I was shooting the Berlin Marathon I shot over 21thousand individual images on the day. 15K of them on one body. That's 10% of shutter life in a day.

I have to ask.... did you receive a decent payment for that amount of images ? (not asking specifics of payment but at .17 per bib number and assuming there was at least one bib number visible in all images thats a minimum of €3.5K ...if there are multiple bib numbers that could increase hugely.

even if they sold **10% of those images at €1 each they make €2,100 ...but they don't sell the images for as little as €1, they sell for *€20-30-50 ... which would mean they could have earned €42,000, €63,000, €105,000 just from one photographer.

* = complete guess but most companies sell for min €20
** = figures assume 10% of all images were sold which is not unrealistic

CabanSail

keps wrote: »

The D2H is a 10 year old DINOSAUR.

Yes it is ..... but it's just a simple easy to use body. Does the job, Aperture Priority, ISO 400 to 800, Fixed Focus, Portrait

keps wrote: »

Can I ask what you did with these 21k images?

Nothing. I was shooting for MF and they owned the images.

Paulw

Corkbah wrote: »

earlier in the thread it was stated that its better to be out taking photos and earning a couple of euro than sitting on the couch/complaining on boards....neither of you were willing to take up the offer

Excuse me, I am far from unwilling. I am unable. Obviously you can't won't see the difference.

I work a day job. Many times it's a normal office hours job, but there are times when I work out of hours too. I also do on-call work, which means dealing with issues 24hrs a day for a week. That's one week in 6. Normally, when there are emergencies, it's at stupid hours in the morning. It doesn't bother me.

I work in photography when it suits me, or when it is worth my while. I have done early starts (5am), and late nights to cover events. I enjoy what I do. I am very happy to make a decent bit from it. My main client considers me a premium expense. I charge a lot for what they get. But, they value the product I provide and my flexibility to cover things they need.

You moan about being down revenue since the digital age? Tough. That's life and that's business. I am all too familiar with that side of life, and have experienced such things many times over, not in photography. But, I simply adapted and found other means to suppliment my income, such as doing photography jobs for small money that still make me a profit.

You come to this thread and put down those who want to shoot things and make some money, just because you can't see the value in it. For many, the value simply isn't the amount of cash you make at the end. There are other values too - making contacts which can bring in further business, making friends, gaining experience, shooting different things, using different gear ... all of which can have an end financial benifit in time.

For the next two weeks, I have had to turn down some photography jobs, due to my family situation. These jobs would be worth a decent sum to me. I think I've roughly passed on €1k, so it is very easy for me turn down your offer. My family will always come first.

I always prefer getting out and making money, rather than putting down others who want to do the same. You're not interested in this particular job. That's fine. I can't do it. That's fine too. But yet you continue to go on and on and on .... just becuase YOU can't see any value in it. Fair play to pullandbang for coming here and offering PAID work to anyone who wants it. They can evaluate if it is worth it for them.

Anyway, I've said my piece and have had enough of this thread.

Corkbah

Paulw wrote: »

Excuse me, I am far from unwilling. I am unable. Obviously you can't won't see the difference.

I work a day job. Many times it's a normal office hours job, but there are times when I work out of hours too. I also do on-call work, which means dealing with issues 24hrs a day for a week. That's one week in 6. Normally, when there are emergencies, it's at stupid hours in the morning. It doesn't bother me.

I work in photography when it suits me, or when it is worth my while. I have done early starts (5am), and late nights to cover events. I enjoy what I do. I am very happy to make a decent bit from it. My main client considers me a premium expense. I charge a lot for what they get. But, they value the product I provide and my flexibility to cover things they need.

You moan about being down revenue since the digital age? Tough. That's life and that's business. I am all too familiar with that side of life, and have experienced such things many times over, not in photography. But, I simply adapted and found other means to suppliment my income, such as doing photography jobs for small money that still make me a profit.

You come to this thread and put down those who want to shoot things and make some money, just because you can't see the value in it. For many, the value simply isn't the amount of cash you make at the end. There are other values too - making contacts which can bring in further business, making friends, gaining experience, shooting different things, using different gear ... all of which can have an end financial benifit in time.

For the next two weeks, I have had to turn down some photography jobs, due to my family situation. These jobs would be worth a decent sum to me. I think I've roughly passed on €1k, so it is very easy for me turn down your offer. My family will always come first.

I always prefer getting out and making money, rather than putting down others who want to do the same. You're not interested in this particular job. That's fine. I can't do it. That's fine too. But yet you continue to go on and on and on .... just becuase YOU can't see any value in it. Fair play to pullandbang for coming here and offering PAID work to anyone who wants it. They can evaluate if it is worth it for them.

Anyway, I've said my piece and have had enough of this thread.

apologies for not saying "unable" - but you are able but choose to stay with family therefore are unwilling as you deem the money not sufficient, if it was upped to €10K for approx 2hrs of work.... or €50,000 an hour..... would you do it ? (I'm not offering that I'm just making a point).... you are doing the exact same thing that I am - just the amounts are different.

I'm saying I prefer not to do such a demanding job for such little money, its not for me - others may have no problem but as I have pointed out throughout the thread, others are welcome to do it Animalrights has said he/she will do it ...and I hope they enjoy their day (sorry...half-day)

most people do not see the expenses surrounding taking on this kind of work - such as paying for overnight stay (if travelling from outside Dublin or if they do not have access to a vehicle themselves)
- paying for travel expenses to get to and from the event
- some people will purchase food themselves and pay for parking - they may not realise its provided for or may not have eaten enough or eaten fast enough while it was available.

people have come on here saying its great - anyone that has said they think its not worth it has been attacked, I have said if people want to do it then let them, I'm not going to do it (at least I hope I'm not - might be sent there - you never know) but I'm making people here make an informed decision not making it out to be a "walk in the park" or "easy money".

you did make valid points about the networking and making contacts though - but apart from organisers its a gathering of enthusiastic photographers - not amateurs or professionals, so very limited professional contacts being made (in my opinion).

Corkbah

Jonnykitedude wrote: »

Ehhhh...

that was about the marathon foto advert - how they could/should have phrased it.... re read it again please ... in full context of what was said before it.

CabanSail

Corkbah wrote: »

I have to ask.... did you receive a decent payment for that amount of images ? (not asking specifics of payment but at .17 per bib number and assuming there was at least one bib number visible in all images thats a minimum of €3.5K ...if there are multiple bib numbers that could increase hugely.

even if they sold **10% of those images at €1 each they make €2,100 ...but they don't sell the images for as little as €1, they sell for *€20-30-50 ... which would mean they could have earned €42,000, €63,000, €105,000 just from one photographer.

* = complete guess but most companies sell for min €20
** = figures assume 10% of all images were sold which is not unrealistic

I was paid a fair amount for the day. It was a flat fee to shoot for a Marathon. They paid for return air fares, meal & hotel. My estimate is I was shooting at about 85% saleable images.

It took a few races for me to get my technique right. They also do statistics as to how well your shots sell. If you are shooting well you get invited away more.

I know that after a London Marathon they upload over a million images to the US

Corkbah

keps wrote: »

Nobody seems to have mentioned that the income from Marathonfoto is taxable

any income that you receive is taxable - you are not going to be an employee so it is "supposed" to be declared and if tax is due that would be paid for from the amount received.

To be honest ... I doubt revenue are going to go after people for it.... but then again, you never know how tight things are with revenue, its only a matter of time before they "investigate" different areas where the taxman is avoided.

I did notice on the marathon foto website it says you can get your medal engraved with your finish time just after the race .... €10 cash only.

lets go by projected numbers of 8,000 participants, approx 10% uptake thats €8,000 cash for one day ....someone has a very profitable business !!

Corkbah

CabanSail wrote: »

I was paid a fair amount for the day. It was a flat fee to shoot for a Marathon. They paid for return air fares, meal & hotel. My estimate is I was shooting at about 85% saleable images.

It took a few races for me to get my technique right. They also do statistics as to how well your shots sell. If you are shooting well you get invited away more.

I know that after a London Marathon they upload over a million images to the US

would you not prefer a % of sales instead of a flat fee ? basically let your work earn you more money....the better you shoot the more rewarded financially you are.

given the expense they went through to get you there (Germany) you were obviously making them a healthy profit - but as you have said you were happy to do it for X amount.

Congrats

Corkbah

P&B .... Earlier in the thread I asked if you knew someone in Marathonfotos when you said you were helping out a friend....just wanted to clarify something ....

pullandbang wrote: »

No, just the Irish guy Neil McShane who is a former club member and he asked me to put a call out here and in the club.
.

now ... you have said "No" you dont know someone in Marathonfoto but the guy you mention Neil McShane is "part of their European operations"

I am now part of their European operations and will be covering events across europe, with the next event on the cards in Turin, Italy at the end of September and then the Dublin Marathon.

Quote taken from his blog http://mononeil.blogspot.ie/2008/09/marathonfoto.html I'm assuming this is the same guy you mentioned same information on his "official"website http://nmsphoto.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/marathonfoto/ ??

stcstc

Corkbah wrote: »

P&B .... Earlier in the thread I asked if you knew someone in Marathonfotos when you said you were helping out a friend....just wanted to clarify something ....



now ... you have said "No" you dont know someone in Marathonfoto but the guy you mention Neil McShane is "part of their European operations"


Quote taken from his blog http://mononeil.blogspot.ie/2008/09/marathonfoto.html I'm assuming this is the same guy you mentioned same information on his "official"website http://nmsphoto.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/marathonfoto/ ??

jeez man, for someone NOT interested in the gig, you have half spent a lot of your precious time here complaining about it

its a little gig for people, ok money might not be great but whats the point in going on and on and on............

thebaz

CabanSail wrote: »

I shot over 21thousand individual images on the day. 15K of them on one body. That's 10% of shutter life in a day.

21,000 in day ??

I think if I took that amount in one day , I'd be glad if the camera packed up and I never took another photograph again . 300 shots in a session and i start questioning what I am doing .

Corkbah

stcstc wrote: »

jeez man, for someone NOT interested in the gig, you have half spent a lot of your precious time here complaining about it

its a little gig for people, ok money might not be great but whats the point in going on and on and on............

I'm only responding to the replies made to me ... am I supposed to keep quiet and not respond when someone asks me something or replies to a comment I have made and I have a different opinion.

I've said it a few times that everyone is welcome to do this, I'm not able, willing to stop them, but I'm sure people can make an informed choice when given FULL information not bits and pieces.

the original request came from MarathonFoto (direct or indirect) - an employee of Marathonfoto asked a person who takes photos to try find people who are willing to take photos for some money.

if Marathonfoto started this thread it would have been pushed to the jobs/work available section and most likely been missed by most people whom may have been interested in it.

This thread started without a starting figure of payment or hours or what is expected from the photographer, throughout the thread the details of having to be there from 6am, getting paid approx €60 for a number of hours work...without me and others asking ...its possible none of this information would have been made out to the public.... people were asked to simply PM P&B who would pass on the details to his marathonfotos friend.

So in response to your comment ... why did you feel the need to "complain" to me about my responses throughout the thread.

* = I say complain but I assume your comments are not meant in an attacking way.

stcstc

i just dont see the point in you going on and repeating things on and on

and hinting at things, like suggesting P&B is up to something, where you question him being connected to marathon fotos etc.

surely what happens with the money etc is kinda irrelavant here, if people get the info and its not for them then good luck

but to keep going over the same ground multiple times just doesnt have a point

Corkbah

stcstc wrote: »

i just dont see the point in you going on and repeating things on and on

and hinting at things, like suggesting P&B is up to something, where you question him being connected to marathon fotos etc.

surely what happens with the money etc is kinda irrelavant here, if people get the info and its not for them then good luck

but to keep going over the same ground multiple times just doesnt have a point

you don't have to read it - there is an unfollow button which allows you to stop getting updates when someone responds.

I feel I've gone over the same ground because different people have asked the same questions or have implied similar things.

P&B started this thread but it was not revealed that the request actually came from Marathonfoto until maybe page 8/9, this to me is an important piece of information, why not put full disclosure out there when making the request instead of hiding bits and pieces.

Marathonfotos want people to take photos, pay is €60ish
0.17¢ per bib number you photograph or €15/hr for during the race - some people are willing to do it, others are not, if people want to ...then go for it ..but it is not an easy number ... I dont see why people are picking on me, I'm not stoping people doing it, I'd like to think I'm opening a few eyes to whats involved .... but at the end of the day - because of the thread ...a few people have decided to sign up and try it for themselves, which means Marathonfotos get what they want.

stcstc

Corkbah wrote: »

you don't have to read it - there is an unfollow button which allows you to stop getting updates when someone responds.

I feel I've gone over the same ground because different people have asked the same questions or have implied similar things.

P&B started this thread but it was not revealed that the request actually came from Marathonfoto until maybe page 8/9, this to me is an important piece of information, why not put full disclosure out there when making the request instead of hiding bits and pieces.

Marathonfotos want people to take photos, pay is €60ish
0.17¢ per bib number you photograph or €15/hr for during the race - some people are willing to do it, others are not, if people want to ...then go for it ..but it is not an easy number ... I dont see why people are picking on me, I'm not stoping people doing it, I'd like to think I'm opening a few eyes to whats involved .... but at the end of the day - because of the thread ...a few people have decided to sign up and try it for themselves, which means Marathonfotos get what they want.

and again

yes i could but felt i should reply to say how much you are going on. and yes i could unsubcribe, in the same way you could choose not to reply again with the same thing

Corkbah

stcstc wrote: »

and again

yes i could but felt i should reply to say how much you are going on. and yes i could unsubcribe, in the same way you could choose not to reply again with the same thing

its a bit stupid/rude not to reply when someone "speaks" to you ..... if I say nothing they don't know my response to their comment....just so you dont feel like you have to reply ...its ok, I think the thread has run its course...a few things are not confirmed (i.e.. if P&B knew the guy was working for Marathonfotos and if so, why not disclose that)


yes I put speaks in inverted commas due to it not actually being a conversation with words spoken but rather a conversation with text.

thebaz

agree with Steve , corkbah you made some good points - but sometimes in life it is best to let things go - people aren't being forced to take these pics , they have a choice, its wouldn't be for me - but if others are happy to do so - so what ?

Corkbah

thebaz wrote: »

agree with Steve , corkbah you made some good points - but sometimes in life it is best to let things go - people aren't being forced to take these pics , they have a choice, its wouldn't be for me - but if others are happy to do so - so what ?

please read the whole thread ...I'm not stopping or trying to stop anyone ...I think around page 1 or two I said if people want to do it... then go for it, its not for me ...or words to that effect. (I was trying to make people aware that it was not as easy a job as advertised)

but I'm only trying to make people aware of the unmentioned bits .... sure they'll give you money, equipment and you spend your day taking hundreds (possibly thousands) of images which they sell off individually or as packages....if people are happy with that - no problem - just as long as they know what they are getting into BEFORE they sign up !!

..from page2

again - its the same thing, Stcstc said why am I repeating myself ... I'm repeating myself because different people keep coming on and "having a go" and I respond telling them the same thing, is there any need for you to make your comment, was there any need for Stcstc to make his comment.

in my opinion no, and again ... my reason for responding is to air my view on being told that I'm not letting things go ...I've had my say and made my points and from an early stage I've said that people shouldn't advertise a job under false pretences (not having a go at P&B ...we dont know if he knew his friend was working for marathonfoto...he hasn't responded to that question yet although in the original post he says he will pass the details on to one of the organisers - take from that what you will)

The job at the start should have been moved to the jobs available/jobs wanted section....and all of this "debate" could have been avoided.

Jonnykitedude

Corkbah wrote: »

it wasn't a bluff ..it was a legit offer to two boards members, both of which have said they are unwilling/unable to do it, doesn't matter what the excuse.
you could have made €200 for around 2hrs of "work"...but you declined due to work commitments.

earlier in the thread it was stated that its better to be out taking photos and earning a couple of euro than sitting on the couch/complaining on boards....neither of you were willing to take up the offer because despite the fact that you would probably be doing nothing at the specific time - you have said you are on annual leave wed-fri which essentially means that you are unwilling to earn money from photography unless it suits you.

for someone that works 6/7 days a week - and a few nights (occasionally), I value when I have time off and prefer to "sit on the couch" or "complain on boards", today(Sat) is my second day off in over three(3) months of working 7 days a week, at least it is a day off unless I get a text/call asking me to work - I love my job and work as often as its offered but to be honest if its not offered I try to make the most of my time off and relax.... would you do your day-job 7 days a week ? or at the drop of a hat if you receive a call are you available to work within the hour ...such is the life of a freelance photographer, my income has dropped over €60K since 2009 (actually it dropped by around €60K in 2009 and has been around the mid/late 30's since then)... photography was a decent respectable business but over the years since the introduction of digital there has been a huge rise in the amount of people not being able to value a job/their time...this has in effect caused people to question the fee's claiming "joe bloggs" can do it for half the price - but "joe bloggs" image and the image taken by the experienced pro were not always the same, people's expectations of quality have dropped as many people do not know what they want ...except a picture that looks nice.

Don't go putting words in my mouth, I never said I wouldn't do it I told you the days I'm free and you specified some of the days I mentioned along with others...so whats your point?

I'm ALWAYS on call in the position I hold...I don't get extra pay for this....I don't get overtime...cry me a river!

I didn't know you are a full time photographer until now so now I know what your gripe is.
Get over yourself, my wife and I along with a the majority of others have had massive pay cuts since 2009.....some of us have had to make an extra income by taking a 2nd job...maybe you should too!

30k drop and your still doing the same if not more hours???

Corkbah

Jonnykitedude wrote: »

Don't go putting words in my mouth, I never said I wouldn't do it I told you the days I'm free and you specified some of the days I mentioned along with others...so whats your point?

I'm ALWAYS on call in the position I hold...I don't get extra pay for this....I don't get overtime...cry me a river!

I didn't know you are a full time photographer until now so now I know what your gripe is.
Get over yourself, my wife and I along with a the majority of others have had massive pay cuts since 2009.....some of us have had to make an extra income by taking a 2nd job...maybe you should too!

30k drop and your still doing the same if not more hours???

drop was €60K - not that it matters....it was more about valuing the time off.... you said you were only available Wed/thur/fri ...because you have work ... so you couldn't do it Mon/tues ... which meant you were not able/willing to do it....are you available mon/tues to do it ... drop me a PM with bank account details or postal address (for payment) and a contact number to reach you at and I'll call/text sometime Mon and another day in the week.

Jonnykitedude

Corkbah wrote: »

drop was €60K - not that it matters....it was more about valuing the time off.

So a 60k drop in 3-4 years.....so the prices you where charging must of been too high, do you blame people taking up cheaper alternatives?

Jonnykitedude

Corkbah wrote: »

drop was €60K - not that it matters....it was more about valuing the time off.... you said you were only available Wed/thur/fri ...because you have work ... so you couldn't do it Mon/tues ... which meant you were not able/willing to do it....are you available mon/tues to do it ... drop me a PM with bank account details or postal address (for payment) and a contact number to reach you at and I'll call/text sometime Mon and another day in the week.

You keep telling people to go back and read all the posts....maybe you should read your own. You said to me Mon-Tue-Wed-Thurs.

Would you like to see my work before you hire me? Are you going to answer some of the questions I asked you about the job?

Corkbah

Jonnykitedude wrote: »

You keep telling people to go back and read all the posts....maybe you should read your own. You said to me Mon-Tue-Wed-Thurs.

Would you like to see my work before you hire me? Are you going to answer some of the questions I asked you about the job?

plain and simple ...its my choice of the day - not yours, I'm offering the money/work - I don't need to see any previous work - I trust you are capable of taking a photo, you are either up for the money/challenge or not.

all you need to know about it is that you'll be sent somewhere (maybe 2/3 places) to take photos ... you give me the photos you receive your money within 2/3days.

Jonnykitedude

Corkbah wrote: »

I said "of my choice" - don't need to see any previous work - I trust you are capable of taking a photo, you are either up for the money/challenge or not.

all you need to know about it is that you'll be sent somewhere (maybe 2/3 places) to take photos ... you give me the photos you receive your money within 2/3days.

Wow this offer keeps changing with every post....when you go back and read your posts and have a your "real offer" in order come see me.

Can I ask, you say you took a hit of 60k.....why are you so eager to give this "job" away.

humberklog

Jonnykitedude wrote: »

Can I ask, you say you took a hit of 60k.....why are you so eager to give this "job" away.

I didn't think there was a real job offered, I thought it was a spot of hyperbole: I think that's allowed on the Internet. I could be wrong though on both counts.

It sounds like a good crew of very decent people going. My only problem is is that it made me think that it was a bank holiday weekend this weekend. Right up to about an hour ago.

thebaz

Corkbah wrote: »

please read the whole thread ...

no thanks, it seams to be just going round in repetive circles - you both have different opinions , such is life - if you dont want to do it , just dont do it

keps

humberklog wrote: »

My only problem is is that it made me think that it was a bank holiday weekend this weekend. Right up to about an hour ago.

that's a bit of a bummer:D--looking forward to a nice lie-om on Monday were you?:pac: