German Volume Training

ronanc15

For my next training cycle I am considering trying the GVT methods. I know it's old but Poliquin has a good article explaining the methodology:

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/441/German_Volume_Training.aspx

I'd be interested to hear some experiences from people who have previously or are currently using this type of program.

Poliquin makes some big noises about it and I have previously seen other big names praising it:

"The German Volume Training program works because it targets a group of motor units, exposing them to an extensive volume of repeated efforts, specifically 10 sets of a single exercise. The body adapts to the extraordinary stress by hypertrophying the targeted fibers. To say this program adds muscle fast is probably an understatement. Gains of 10 pounds or more in six weeks are not uncommon, even in experienced lifters!"

I'm not getting hung up on exact figures here but I'm interested to hear what type of gains people experienced in comparison with other styles of training.

n1ck

I've done it before and did it wrong, i superset two exercises for 10 sets each. I did put on a decent bit of size even with a poor diet but it's incredibly boring.

ronanc15

n1ck wrote: »

I've done it before and did it wrong, i superset two exercises for 10 sets each. I did put on a decent bit of size even with a poor diet but it's incredibly boring.

Were you doing much in the way of accessory work in addition to your primary exercise?

n1ck

ronanc15 wrote: »

Were you doing much in the way of accessory work in addition to your primary exercise?

I was too knackered to do anything other than the main movements I was doing.

Hanley

There's a load of GVT in my log from like nov 2012 to jan 2013. I loved it.

xgtdec

Im a big fan, true it could be seen as a bit boring...but headphones in and get it done!!

ronanc15

Hanley wrote: »

There's a load of GVT in my log from like nov 2012 to jan 2013. I loved it.

Must take a look, why did you change of it in Jan - change of scenery?

xgtdec wrote: »

Im a big fan, true it could be seen as a bit boring...but headphones in and get it done!!

Are you working off it at the mo? Are you noticing much in the way of muscle mass gains?

Sangre

n1ck wrote: »

I was too knackered to do anything other than the main movements I was doing.

Does article not specify this for A1 and A2?

Hanley wrote: »

There's a load of GVT in my log from like nov 2012 to jan 2013. I loved it.

How long did your workouts typically take?

Hanley

ronanc15 wrote: »

Must take a look, why did you change of it in Jan - change of scenery?



Are you working off it at the mo? Are you noticing much in the way of muscle mass gains?

It was time to change after that period of time!

Sangre wrote: »

Does article not specify this for A1 and A2?



How long did your workouts typically take?

45ish mins...

Upper body days;

A1) 10x10
A2) 10x10
B1) 3x15
B2) 3x15

Lower;

A) 10x10
B1) 10x10
B2) 10x10

45-60s between sets, stop watch set, bish bash bosh in and out easy.

amazingemmet

I've seen various people try GVT over the years and one thing I've noticed is if you don't religiously stick to the tempo's your results will be sub par.

Tried it myself just before I moved back didn't get to finish a whole cycle with disruptions due to moving etc but I followed the poliquin BCAA protocol, ie take f*cking loads of them and the doms was not bad at all. Also I replicated the poliquin bcca formula with ones from myprotein its about 1/4 the cost, for those interested 1kg of bcaa, 250g of leucine and 250g of lysine will give the same as poliquin bcaa's

xgtdec

ronanc15 wrote: »

Are you working off it at the mo? Are you noticing much in the way of muscle mass gains?

Yes working off it at the moment, BUT...im not eating for mass right now so gvt is at the moment my way of training to get away from my more normal routines which became a tiny bit stale, the gvt is a nice change!

So to answer the question..no gains:rolleyes:...but i'd really recommend it for fat loss if your bored or stuck!!

ronanc15

I'm looking forward to the challenge, which no doubt it will be. I think this type of training will definitely require more rest than I have been allowing myself previously (as in between sessions). Will have to dig out a stopwatch to regulate the rest between sets

Im working on introducing tempo controls on some of the main lifts at the moment so as it's fresh in my mind it should be relatively easy to transfer across to the GVT (famous last words?!)

@amazingemmet, any link to some more info on his BCAA protocol? How much did that home brew cost you

amazingemmet

You got to remember the way GVT is laid out its 3 workouts over 5 days then repeat. It should take 30 days to finish the 10x10 section.

You'll find that the weights if chosen properly will be light enough that you can focus on counting, 1 thousand, 2 thousand etc.

BCAA protocl There's more online if you google it.

The cost worked out at the homebrew was 1.5kg for the same cost of 400g of the poliquin brand ones.

ronanc15

amazingemmet wrote: »

You got to remember the way GVT is laid out its 3 workouts over 5 days then repeat. It should take 30 days to finish the 10x10 section.

You'll find that the weights if chosen properly will be light enough that you can focus on counting, 1 thousand, 2 thousand etc.

BCAA protocl There's more online if you google it.

The cost worked out at the homebrew was 1.5kg for the same cost of 400g of the poliquin brand ones.

I take it that given the volume in each session, you guys found the rest essential in between?

Cheers for the link, I had toyed with the idea of making my own BCAA mix so this will be useful

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Read this yesterday and thought it looked good. Started last night on a 3 day split.
Chest and back, Arms and Shoulders, Quads, Hams and Calfs. A1 A2 superset 10x10 and b1 + B2 superset 3 x 10.

Oh my god. Wanted to vomit after. Had nothing left at set 5 and came near to getting stuck under the bar on the bench. It is very time efficient. Think this is going to be a challenge. Chins are particularly difficult as I dont have that many, but the gym has an assisted chins machine to allow me to complete the sets. Still have the shakes this morning. I think this will be a epic training cycle.

Duck's hoop

You're going too heavy. It's tricky getting the weight right the first couple sessions.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Duck's hoop wrote: »

You're going too heavy. It's tricky getting the weight right the first couple sessions.

Yeah your not wrong. I was going 60% max, may tail that down a bit. Leg day should be fun. Have disabling arse doms from a split squat session 3 days ago still

ronanc15

Dominique Salty Above wrote: »

Yeah your not wrong. I was going 60% max, may tail that down a bit. Leg day should be fun. Have disabling arse doms from a split squat session 3 days ago still

Keep us in the loop with how you get on!! I won't be starting my cycle until after 14th July.

ronanc15

@fitzgeme, how was leg day :-D

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Its a real ego check, can backsquat 140kg for reps but at 60kg the 10x10 was a red faced grunt fest. Did them with goodmornings and my B sets were leg extensions and hamstring curls. Some calf work to round it out.....

Then I went into a 45 minute spin class and nearly died. Legs feel numb now, glutes ache. Going to have some serious pain for a few days. At least tomorrow is chest day again. Arm and shoulder day was a breeze as far as recovery but uncomfortable at the time. I am really hungry on this training.

thinking rosary beads to keep track of the sets.

imnothim

fitzgeme - i ran gvt a few times and loved it. i always programme it a 70% of max but test maxes immedietly before i start (fri before the mon, if you follow) rather than an enormous squat you may have hit months/years ago which wouldnt be as relevant. the first few sessions are pretty horendous, but as a way of tracking progress i marked myself out of 100 at the end of each move, so if i managed 90/100 squats last week and was on 80reps going into my last 2 sets this week i could afford a 6+6 or whatever combination to be progressing and then obviously the rep total goes up for next week and the challenge starts again.
i hit each movement 2 times per week for 4-6 weeks and would be completing full sets from about 60% of the way through the cycle, at this point id start start adding weight each session just to try and keep that 100rep completion out of touching distance, tiny bits of weight though, like 5kg to a squat which feels like the world in the last few sets though.

oh yeah, the assisted chinups thing - rehab bands.

ronanc15

Brave one hitting the spin class after that, surprised you could even throw the leg over!! Not sure whether I'll do stiff leg deadlifts or GM with the squats. Leaning towards stiff leg DLs. Are you deadlifting in your back day?

Is there a recommended % weight you should be adding per session? Or per X amount of weeks>

The Guvnor

Did this for a bit was great - 10x10 with 60% 1RM on Squats!
Roughly 60%.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

2 day out from leg day and all I can say is fcuk GVT. Check/back/shoulders and arms are fine and there is a monster pump at the end. (question does the feeling of a pump actually mean anything as regards the effectiveness of the training?).

Think I will stubborn this out for 6-8 weeks and do a 1RM test after that.

ronanc15

DOMS still molesting you after leg day??

Did my 1RM test for DL last week, squat this week so good timing for me to start after my hols next week

n1ck

Can you put up your programme? I'd be interested to see it.

amazingemmet

Dominique Salty Above wrote: »

2 day out from leg day and all I can say is fcuk GVT. Check/back/shoulders and arms are fine and there is a monster pump at the end. (question does the feeling of a pump actually mean anything as regards the effectiveness of the training?).

The pump is good for a number of reasons, one increased blood flow to the muscles if your workout nutrition is good then increased nutrients going there, two big pump also facilitates some facsial stretching.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Its a bit of a mish-mash of what I have read. I do this 3 consecutive day and rest. Getting in 3 spin class 45 minute a week also.

Day 1 Chest/Back.
A1 Flat bench, medium width grip 10 x 10
A2 Chins 10 x 10 starting at BW and taking weight off to complete reps.
90 seconds after each A1,A2 superset.

B1 Decline Bench Close grip 10 x 3
B2 Lat pulldown wide grip 10 X 30
B3 Pushups 10 X 3
B1+B2+B3 60 seconds rest.

Day 2 Shoulders and Arms. (deadlifts in here also)
A1 Millitay press 10 X 10
A2 Deadlift 10 X 10 light enough
A3 Dips 10 X 10
90 seconds after each A1,A2, A3 superset.

B1 Curls 3 x 5 really heavy straight bar
B2 Curls 3 x 5 Preacher
B3 Curls 3 X 5 light dumbell
B4 Tricep push downs 3 X 5
B1+B2+B3+B4 60 seconds rest.

Day 3 Legs
A1 Squats 10 X 10 slow down, fast up.
A2 Goodmornings/straightleg deadlifts 10 X 10
90 seconds

B1 Leg extension 3 X 15
B2 Lying ham curls 3 X 15
No rest B1-B2-B1-B2-B1-B2

C1 Calf raises 3 X 15 on smith machine and step (I have to be careful if I put too much volume into my calf the get crippling DOMS, I am blessed with calf you dont really need to train, if only my fecking gut was the same)

Suggestions welcomed.

amazingemmet

@Fitzgeme it's a bit frankensteinish

Not to say it won't work but the GVT program from the link in the first article is tried and trusted to do the job. Also you need to go over your exercise selection a bit. Ie squats and goodmornings in the same pairing will be trashing your lower back once the pump kicks in about set 5. Also you're not working knee flexion anywhere. Also military press and dips.

ronanc15

Dominique Salty Above wrote: »

Its a bit of a mish-mash of what I have read. I do this 3 consecutive day and rest. Getting in 3 spin class 45 minute a week also.

Day 1 Chest/Back.
A1 Flat bench, medium width grip 10 x 10
A2 Chins 10 x 10 starting at BW and taking weight off to complete reps.
90 seconds after each A1,A2 superset.

B1 Decline Bench Close grip 10 x 3
B2 Lat pulldown wide grip 10 X 30
B3 Pushups 10 X 3
B1+B2+B3 60 seconds rest.

Day 2 Shoulders and Arms. (deadlifts in here also)
A1 Millitay press 10 X 10
A2 Deadlift 10 X 10 light enough
A3 Dips 10 X 10
90 seconds after each A1,A2, A3 superset.

B1 Curls 3 x 5 really heavy straight bar
B2 Curls 3 x 5 Preacher
B3 Curls 3 X 5 light dumbell
B4 Tricep push downs 3 X 5
B1+B2+B3+B4 60 seconds rest.

Day 3 Legs
A1 Squats 10 X 10 slow down, fast up.
A2 Goodmornings/straightleg deadlifts 10 X 10
90 seconds

B1 Leg extension 3 X 15
B2 Lying ham curls 3 X 15
No rest B1-B2-B1-B2-B1-B2

C1 Calf raises 3 X 15 on smith machine and step (I have to be careful if I put too much volume into my calf the get crippling DOMS, I am blessed with calf you dont really need to train, if only my fecking gut was the same)

Suggestions welcomed.

The only part of that I'm unsure of is the deadlifts after the MP on shoulders day. Bit of a catch 22 as you can't really put them at full volume on your chest day either.

I may opt for a 4 day split giving back a day of it's own.

EDIT: or would a 4 day split be too much given the VOL involved?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Unfortunately I have to work around the equipment in my gym and also the fact I need alternatives instead of waiting around. If I did the poliquin method by the time I went say from squats to lying leg curls, my squat wrack would have been taken. I know its German but putting a towel on something mean nothing to the guys in my gym. Also there are no DB over 30kg so my progression is limited strickly his system.

As for knee flexion I am unsure what that is?

Yeah the deadlifts are kina stuck in there, but I got to do them sometime...maybe better on leg day but that would probably kill me. Its hard not to feel I am not getting a full workout. I used to do chest and shoulders together, and that would be three inclinations of bench, and flys and pushups. Trying to let go of that "hit em from every angle" things is hard. Takes a good 50 minutes get through those as I layed them out.

ronanc15

Dominique Salty Above wrote: »

Unfortunately I have to work around the equipment in my gym and also the fact I need alternatives instead of waiting around. If I did the poliquin method by the time I went say from squats to lying leg curls, my squat wrack would have been taken. I know its German but putting a towel on something mean nothing to the guys in my gym. Also there are no DB over 30kg so my progression is limited strickly his system.

As for knee flexion I am unsure what that is?

Yeah the deadlifts are kina stuck in there, but I got to do them sometime...maybe better on leg day but that would probably kill me. Its hard not to feel I am not getting a full workout. I used to do chest and shoulders together, and that would be three inclinations of bench, and flys and pushups. Trying to let go of that "hit em from every angle" things is hard. Takes a good 50 minutes get through those as I layed them out.

That right there is where I know I'll come up against the biggest obstacle, myself!!

amazingemmet

Dominique Salty Above wrote: »

Trying to let go of that "hit em from every angle" things is hard. Takes a good 50 minutes get through those as I layed them out.

That's the point of german volume training is to not hit everything from every angle but to pick one angle and trash the muscles from it. If you're really counting the tempos on each set then you should have little left for extra work.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

In a way I feel its a bit more metabolic conditioning than isolation. Reminds me of boot camp training (oh the horrible memories). Medium weight circuits for time with little rest.

What are thoughts on inclined Leg press after the squats rather than the GM's or SLDL?

Hanley

Dominique Salty Above wrote: »

In a way I feel its a bit more metabolic conditioning than isolation. Reminds me of boot camp training (oh the horrible memories). Medium weight circuits for time with little rest.

What are thoughts on inclined Leg press after the squats rather than the GM's or SLDL?

Could be worth thinking of it from the other perspective too if you're THAT limited - Leg Press + SLDL/GM.

But yah if you're doing it right, you shouldn't have anything left for metcons, spinning or any of that crap.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Hanley wrote: »

, spinning or any of that crap.

Hey I like spinning, the view is great.

amazingemmet

Now to scare everyone off GVT

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/1hfhvd/how_fittit_saved_my_life_extremely_painful_doms/

googled eyes

amazingemmet wrote: »

Now to scare everyone off GVT

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/1hfhvd/how_fittit_saved_my_life_extremely_painful_doms/

I'm selling my weights tomorrow !!!!!:eek:

:pac:

colman1212

so is the idea you just train 3 days a week on this thing?

amazingemmet

colman1212 wrote: »

so is the idea you just train 3 days a week on this thing?

No its five day cycle.

dor843088

amazingemmet wrote: »

Now to scare everyone off GVT

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/1hfhvd/how_fittit_saved_my_life_extremely_painful_doms/

Shouldv just sucked it up stop being a pu$$y and went and hit the weights the next day lol

ronanc15

Bear with me guys while I thrash out some potential GVT plans. Critique on this one please:

Rest Intervals: STRICT – If exercises are being performed independently – 60secs rest. If exercises are being performed as a superset – 90 to 120 secs.

"Tempo: For long-range movements such as squats, dips and chins, use a 40X0 tempo; this means the eccentric portion of the exercise is 4 seconds and the concentric portion is done as rapidly as possible. For movements such as curls and triceps extensions, use a 3020 tempo."


Day 1: Chest

A1 - Flat Bench 10 x 10
A2 – Dumbell Flyes 10 x 10

B1 – Incline Barbell Press 3 x 10-12
B2 – Decline Bench 3 x 10-12

Day 2: Back
A1 – Deadlift 10x10
A2 – Pull Ups 10x10

B1 –Wide Grip Lat Pull Downs 3 x 10-12
B2 – One Arm Dumbell Rows 3 x 10-12

Day 3: Rest

Day 4: Legs
A1 – Squat 10 x 10
A2 – Barbell Step-Up 10 x 10

B1 – Seated Calf Raises 3 x 10-12
B2 – Walking Barbell Lunges x 3

Day 5: Shoulders & Arms

A1 – Military/OH Press 10 x 10
A2 – Dips 10 x 10

B1 – Lat Raises 3 x 10-12
B2 – Front Raises 3 x 10-12

C1 – Preacher Curls 3 x 10-12
C2 – Shrugs 3 x 10-12

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Day 4 looks like a killer

ronanc15

Dominique Salty Above wrote: »

Day 4 looks like a killer

Looks rough alright, lunges could be the nail in the coffin!

Question which I should know the answer to.

Is supersetting a fundamental part of GVT?

Take Day 4 for an example, should the squats and step-ups be supersetted, no pause, between A1 & A2? Or can they be performed independently i.e. 10 sets of squats first, 10 sets of step-ups

amazingemmet

Day one is terrible in terms of exercise selection.

So is day 4.

Try again and think antagonists.

But why not just follow the program as laid out by Poliquin?

ronanc15

amazingemmet wrote: »

Day one is terrible in terms of exercise selection.

So is day 4.

Try again and think antagonists.

But why not just follow the program as laid out by Poliquin?

As I understand Poliquins example is just a sample to expand on the theory - he's not necessarily stating it has to be followed that way unless I'm mistaken?

I'm keen to give back a day of it's own and personally i feel that I could cope with 4 days - I could be proven horribly wrong :P

Any suggestions for Day 1/4? Open to suggestions on both!

EDIT: Also I know that by separating Chest & Back I am removing some antagonistic aspect

Hanley

ronanc15 wrote: »

As I understand Poliquins example is just a sample to expand on the theory - he's not necessarily stating it has to be followed that way unless I'm mistaken?

I'm keen to give back a day of it's own and personally i feel that I could cope with 4 days - I could be proven horribly wrong :P

Any suggestions for Day 1/4? Open to suggestions on both!

EDIT: Also I know that by separating Chest & Back I am removing some antagonistic aspect

YNDTP.

Why do people always think they know better...

ronanc15

Hanley wrote: »

YNDTP.

Why do people always think they know better...

I don't - that's why I'm asking. That was actually a question, albeit phrased differently.

P.s. Had to google that abbreviation, learn something new everyday

To avoid any confusion what I was asking is

A) For GVT to be properly executed as it was designed does it have to be a 3 day split. i.e. can I do a 4 day split giving back a day of it's own or is this incorrect?
Poliquin's program - is this guidance or instruction?

amazingemmet

Its not a three day split, its 3 days over five, So you'll train 5 days a week in effect

Ie,

Mon chest/back
tues Legs
Wed Off
Thur shoulders/ arms
Fri off
Sat chest back
Sun legs

Do the Poliquin program as suggest in his article on the charlespoliquin.com site. Don't try and reinvent the wheel. Only mess with the accessory exercises if you know you have a certain deficit that needs to be corrected. It'll take you 30 days for the 10x10 section then 15 for the 10x6 section. Follow as closely as possible, take your bcaa's, sleep as much as possible reap the rewards.



Etc

Hanley

amazingemmet wrote: »

Its not a three day split, its 3 days over five, So you'll train 5 days a week in effect

Ie,

Mon chest/back
tues Legs
Wed Off
Thur shoulders/ arms
Fri off
Sat chest back
Sun legs

Do the Poliquin program as suggest in his article on the charlespoliquin.com site. Don't try and reinvent the wheel. Only mess with the accessory exercises if you know you have a certain deficit that needs to be corrected. It'll take you 30 days for the 10x10 section then 15 for the 10x6 section. Follow as closely as possible, take your bcaa's, sleep as much as possible reap the rewards.



Etc

What he said.

..and if you ARE going to sub exercises, which you shouldn't but probably will do anyway, try to stick to the spirit of what is prescribed. So if it's back and chest, don't change it to bench press and dumbbell flys.

ronanc15

amazingemmet wrote: »

Its not a three day split, its 3 days over five, So you'll train 5 days a week in effect

Ie,

Mon chest/back
tues Legs
Wed Off
Thur shoulders/ arms
Fri off
Sat chest back
Sun legs

Do the Poliquin program as suggest in his article on the charlespoliquin.com site. Don't try and reinvent the wheel. Only mess with the accessory exercises if you know you have a certain deficit that needs to be corrected. It'll take you 30 days for the 10x10 section then 15 for the 10x6 section. Follow as closely as possible, take your bcaa's, sleep as much as possible reap the rewards.



Etc

OK I understand what you mean about the 5 day cycle now.

So are the A1 and A2 exercises always supersetted?