Preview Thread -RaboDirect Pro12 Final - RDS, 25th May, 1645 - live on RTE2/TG4/BBCNI

jamiedav2011

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah we have seen him do it actually, the whole way up the underage ranks and when Pienaar is absent.

Do you not remember Ulster v. Munster earlier on in the year when he gave that young Cork fellah, Raymond O'Garmin or whatever his name is, a lesson in game management?

Hmmm I'd dispute your recollection there. He was grand that day aswell, but Ulster were on top all over.

If one game in Ravers and some underage performances are what you're pointing towards to indicate that he's good enough to be outhalf for the national side then I wouldn't agree.

As I've recounted already, I've no issues with his performance in general yesterday in general, but I fully believe that he isn't up to international level yet.

By the way IBF, no need for the condescending tone please!

irishbucsfan

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Hmmm I'd dispute your recollection there. He was grand that day aswell, but Ulster were on top all over.

If one game in Ravers and some underage performances are what you're pointing towards to indicate that he's good enough to be outhalf for the national side then I wouldn't agree.

As I've recounted already, I've no issues with his performance in general yesterday in general, but I fully believe that he isn't up to international level yet.

By the way IBF, no need for the condescending tone please!

I'm not being condesceding at all.

He has controlled plenty of games quite well for Ulster. He has done so far better than Ian Madigan was capable of until lately. The Munster game is not the only example, but it was the best example.

Is he ready for Ireland? I'd say that he's nowhere near Sexton. If Sexton is injured then I'd have himself and Madigan pretty close, although I'd prefer Madigan right now. But I think Jackson is a lot better than you're making him out to be.

shuffol

Grimebox wrote: »

If the ref hadn't blown this up, would it have been a double movement?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEUfmZcScoE

I can only imagine that Diack was being a typical forward and tried to absorb the contact rather than fall over the line.

shuffol

The Ulster game after the Scotland match Jackson was top class and ran the show. The Ulster-Leinster game in Ravenhill toward the end of last season he was brilliant and outplayed Sexton. He was great when Ulster bet Leinster in the RDS a few months back too. For a 21 year old outhalf he's a cracking talent.

ulster_Beef

bilston wrote: »

To be honest I would have thought kicking in complete silence would be a lot harder than kicking with background noise.

On TV anyway I thought the fans were pretty quiet for the kicks, a couple of noises from both sets of fans but nothing unusual.

I think it was clermont who said the quietness of ravenhill during kicks freaks them out

CIARAN_BOYLE

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

I'd hope that's not referring to me, because that's not what I said or think.

Not entirely anyway, its not really aimed at anyone just a summation of ideas expressed by a number of posters (here and on other forums) rolled together. The constand sniping refered to Bilston.

Grimebox

The only two Leinster matches I didn't go to the RDS for in a long time were this and the Amlin final. I make poor life choices

ulster_Beef

molloyjh wrote: »

Wonderful day out yesterday. Cracking weather, top class atmosphere, a fine game of rugby and the right result. I thought Lacey was a bit too quick to blow up at the breakdown in the first half in particular. He seemed to ease off a bit in the second, but not sure if that was him or just the sides adjusting to him. The difference in the first 10-15 seemed to be where Leinster conceded their penalties compared to where Ulster did. Didn't see the scrum on the Leinster line properly that seems to have caused a fuss. But in the few hits before hand Court wasn't binding properly and that was ignored too. Thought our back row was excellent and Jenno fully deserved his MOTM. The guy has been in great form recently.

Had a great sing-song with a bunch of Ulster fans in Kielys afterwards and all the Ulster lads we met were absolutely sound. They were all packed onto a bus fairly early though. Would have made for a really great night if they could have stayed. We were talking to one who said he was really embarrassed about the noise for the Leinster kicks. It was very noticeable in the ground that there was a difference between the two sets of fans. He reckons there's been an increasing soccer element coming into Ulster rugby and its not going down well with a lot of them.

Anyway, well done to Leinster. Great way to say goodbye to the lads. That's every trophy available to Leinster in 2 seasons. That'll do nicely. Next up, the Lions.

Just look at what flag the booing fans have you always get a few drunk 16 year olds flying the N.I flag as opposed to the true ulster flag. You wouldn't hear it from ravenhill regulars.

I myself reckon there is a football element coming into it. With all the media attention and the growth of ulster lately they will jump on anything to cheer. We don't have too much to cheer in N.I.... we cant even cheer Rory these days, hes probably in the rough as I type this haha.

As for people saying so what about booing, they boo in France and NZ for example. So what? This is Ireland, who cares what they do in other countries. I find booing disrespectful

Swiwi

bilston wrote: »

What was your problem with Jackson yesterday? I really don't understand the constant sniping that goes on at his expense from south of the border. It borders on the bizarre. I genuinely don't know what else he was meant to do yesterday. Two piercing breaks, lovely distribution, a couple of big kicks and excellent defence.

Baffling.

I thought Jackson went OK TBH. The losing of the game for Ulster was the first 20 minutes. Rubbish defence for that first try off the lineout, and a series of penalties. It was a reasonable comeback in the 2nd half, although a few too many handling errors snuffed out a number of forays. When you are up close, you realise how fast the game is played these days, how vital the breakdown is, and how the better players make the better split second decisions.

phog

Getting to this thread late but congrats to Leinster, great display and brilliant to get the double. As a neutral I was half hoping Ulster would win, they could do with some silverware but was happy Leinster managed the double with Joe, Jonny and Isa all thoroughly deserved it.

Diack must be kicking himself, charged into Sexton rather than diving turned down a certain try, it would have made a great end but I think Leinster had enough in the tank.

totallegend

shuffol wrote: »

I can only imagine that Diack was being a typical forward and tried to absorb the contact rather than fall over the line.

He can always console himself that it wasn't as bad as these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EwALPEKESc

Not far off though.

.ak

I thought Jackson had a great game, especially off the set piece.

durkadurka

You just feel he's in the shadow of Ruan though.

Swiwi

totallegend wrote: »

He can always console himself that it wasn't as bad as these:

Not far off though.

Yeah, he should have dived. That clip (at least on rugbydump) also has 5 that missed the cut, I remember Cullen's clanger, the Canes were making a great comback v the Tahs in a must-win game, and he dropped the ball over the line.

Swiwi

.ak wrote: »

I thought Jackson had a great game, especially off the set piece.

Points decision to Sexton, but that's no disgrace, and he played better than Madigan, but obviously Madigan was at 12.

totallegend

Swiwi wrote: »

Yeah, he should have dived. That clip (at least on rugbydump) also has 5 that missed the cut, I remember Cullen's clanger, the Canes were making a great comback v the Tahs in a must-win game, and he dropped the ball over the line.

Ha, yeah that was class:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McZAjlZgs_U

can't embed this one but it's right up there too:

http://www.bbcmotiongallery.com/gallery/clip/1B28410_0037.do

accensi0n

Anyone else having issues watching the match on RTE player?

awec

Just watching the BBC iPlayer coverage of the game with Jonathan Davies commentating and he called the Boss on Williams tackle a "definite penalty try".

.ak

awec wrote: »

Just watching the BBC iPlayer coverage of the game with Jonathan Davies commentating and he called the Boss on Williams tackle a "definite penalty try".

Nothing definite about it though. A penalty try, in theory, should only be awarded if a definite try is about to be scored and something illegal/cynical prevents it from doing so. We don't know if Williams would've carried too early, could've gotten held up in contact etc., etc. So no, probably should've been a penalty.

Having said that, I haven't seen the incident on replay, so I'm not entirely sure, but I'm basing this on what posters said here.

awec

.ak wrote: »

Nothing definite about it though. A penalty try, in theory, should only be awarded if a definite try is about to be scored and something illegal/cynical prevents it from doing so. We don't know if Williams would've carried too early, could've gotten held up in contact etc., etc. So no, probably should've been a penalty.

Having said that, I haven't seen the incident on replay, so I'm not entirely sure, but I'm basing this on what posters said here.

But that was the third scrum was it not in the same position, the previous 2 being penalties against Leinster? We were going forward each time.

This comes back to the inconsistencies between referees when awarding penalty tries I guess.

If not a penalty try then definitely another penalty to Ulster. But Lacey had other ideas. He's going down on my list now, never to be removed. :P

irishbucsfan

Penalty try as far as I'm concerned. Not for the tackle off the ball but for Healy going down. The tackle off the ball was just extras.

Not sure how Lacey managed to get that so catastrophically wrong!

Buer

awec wrote: »

But that was the third scrum was it not in the same position, the previous 2 being penalties against Leinster? We were going forward each time.

The first one was against Ross when it went down and it could have gone either way; Court seemed to be pulling downwards. I don't recall either side going forward. Second penalty was definitely moving when it dropped. A penalty try was definitely in the minds but it would have been extremely soft to give it at that point.

.ak

awec wrote: »

But that was the third scrum was it not in the same position, the previous 2 being penalties against Leinster? We were going forward each time.

This comes back to the inconsistencies between referees when awarding penalty tries I guess.

If not a penalty try then definitely another penalty to Ulster. But Lacey had other ideas. He's going down on my list now, never to be removed. :P

Ha, I'd reserve judgement for him by looking at the game again. Or even better, watch him ref games your team isn't involved in. He's actually a very good ref. One of the best in the league imo.

awec

.ak wrote: »

Ha, I'd reserve judgement for him by looking at the game again. Or even better, watch him ref games your team isn't involved in. He's actually a very good ref. One of the best in the league imo.

The Healy / Afoa incident was another one. For the 3 points you got just before half time Healy held on to Afoa's leg right in front of Clancy to stop Afoa moving and getting involved in tackling.

Literally Afoa standing up, Healy lying at his feet with his arms around one leg stopping Afoa from moving. Deliberately and illegally preventing him getting involved in defence. He wasn't even trying to bring Afoa to ground, he was literally acting as a dead weight on Afoa's foot. Yards away from Lacey who had a full and clear view of it.

And Lacey gave the penalty to Leinster?

Best in the league my arse.

He's on the list.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

The first one was against Ross when it went down and it could have gone either way; Court seemed to . I don't recall either side going forward. Second penalty was definitely moving when it dropped. A penalty try was definitely in the minds but it would have been extremely soft to give it at that point.

If I remember right Healy ended up on his knees in all three scrums. I'd have had no problem with a penalty try.

I actually thought the second penalty was just a slip from Healy and was just unfortunate, but I feel three scrum penalties in a row 5 meters out warrants some further option.

Of course as it was there was no 3rd penalty!

totallegend

.ak wrote: »

Ha, I'd reserve judgement for him by looking at the game again. Or even better, watch him ref games your team isn't involved in. He's actually a very good ref. One of the best in the league imo.

+1 on that, I think he's an excellent ref.

Re: the penalty/lack of at Ulster's scrums, the interpretation of the scrum by all refs is always a bit unpredictable, so if you go for repeated scrums rather than taking your points, you run the risk of it going against you and that's what happened there.

Also, they were up against an all-international front row who've been around the block, Healy and Ross wouldn't be slow figuring out how Court and Afoa were approaching the scrum and would adapt to it.

It seemed to me (speculating here) that the Ulster forwards were a bit miffed at how easily Leinster were able to maul over for Jennings' try and maybe wanted to lay down a marker when they should have just given Pienaar the ball and got the scoreboard ticking over.

.ak

awec wrote: »

The Healy / Afoa incident was another one. For the 3 points you got just before half time Healy held on to Afoa's leg right in front of Clancy to stop Afoa moving and getting involved in tackling.

Literally Afoa standing up, Healy lying at his feet with his arms around one leg stopping Afoa from moving. Deliberately and illegally preventing him getting involved in defence. He wasn't even trying to bring Afoa to ground, he was literally acting as a dead weight on Afoa's foot. Yards away from Lacey who had a full and clear view of it.

And Lacey gave the penalty to Leinster?

Best in the league my arse.

He's on the list.

How many times do you see pen's given for that, especially on the line when there's so much going on? It was close enough to the ruck, it happens all of the time. If Lacey saw it, he probably would've penalized it, but lets not get into the habit of criticising refs for MISSING things, they're only human after all. Even if the pen was given, could've been reversed for Afoa's reaction.

The penalty was given for something different, Ulster infringed at the ruck.

Honestly tho, disconnect yourself from the game, and watch him in other games, he's very clear and is constantly talking to the players, great ref. I rarely praise a ref, but for the amount of vitriol on here about ref's I think the good ones deserve praise. Himself and McEnemey(sp?) deserve some praise, especially the latter who's only really emerging on the scene but has a great feel for the game.

I did feel sorry for Ulster cuz he did seem to whistle you off the pitch in the first 15 min, but he couldn't be clearer in what he wanted and Ulster were being naive in the breakdown. As a Leinster fan over the past few months I've learned not to criticize a ref when it's not going your way, just gotta hope the team has the ability to adapt.

prospect

awec wrote: »

Literally Afoa standing up, Healy lying at his feet with his arms around one leg stopping Afoa from moving. Deliberately and illegally preventing him getting involved in defence. He wasn't even trying to bring Afoa to ground, he was literally acting as a dead weight on Afoa's foot. Yards away from Lacey who had a full and clear view of it.

And Lacey gave the penalty to Leinster?

Depends on how you look at it really, I'd have given Afoa 10 minutes on the sideline for that incident.

Now doubt Healy was acting the boll'x, but Afoa's reaction was unacceptable.

Isa's yellow for pulling Jackson down by the shirt was a fair call. But an almost identical incident (but in reverse, can't recall the players) happened not long later, yet no yellow for Ulster.

So I think that Ulster had their fair share of 'advantageous' decisions. Overall, I thought the Ref was good.

awec

.ak wrote: »

How many times do you see pen's given for that, especially on the line when there's so much going on? It was close enough to the ruck, it happens all of the time. If Lacey saw it, he probably would've penalized it, but lets not get into the habit of criticising refs for MISSING things, they're only human after all. Even if the pen was given, could've been reversed for Afoa's reaction.

The penalty was given for something different, Ulster infringed at the ruck.

Honestly tho, disconnect yourself from the game, and watch him in other games, he's very clear and is constantly talking to the players, great ref. I rarely praise a ref, but for the amount of vitriol on here about ref's I think the good ones deserve praise. Himself and McEnemey(sp?) deserve some praise, especially the latter who's only really emerging on the scene but has a great feel for the game.

I did feel sorry for Ulster cuz he did seem to whistle you off the pitch in the first 15 min, but he couldn't be clearer in what he wanted and Ulster were being naive in the breakdown. As a Leinster fan over the past few months I've learned not to criticize a ref when it's not going your way, just gotta hope the team has the ability to adapt.

I'd like to see penalties given for it when it's right on our try line. If Leinster had scored a try because Afoa couldn't make a tackle I would have been absolutely livid.

It's one thing adapting to the ref at breakdowns (and we were pretty bad at that and it was disappointing to see our captain being the one caught out multiple times), but when he's missing things like players being blocked from defending deliberately or getting scrum decisions wrong then there's nothing to be adapted to there. That's just terrible refereeing.

He may have missed things the other way around too, but I don't think any of the incorrect calls that favoured us had the impact of the ones that favoured Leinster.

KERSPLAT!

.ak wrote: »

How many times do you see pen's given for that, especially on the line when there's so much going on? It was close enough to the ruck, it happens all of the time. If Lacey saw it, he probably would've penalized it, but lets not get into the habit of criticising refs for MISSING things, they're only human after all. Even if the pen was given, could've been reversed for Afoa's reaction.

The penalty was given for something different, Ulster infringed at the ruck.

Honestly tho, disconnect yourself from the game, and watch him in other games, he's very clear and is constantly talking to the players, great ref. I rarely praise a ref, but for the amount of vitriol on here about ref's I think the good ones deserve praise. Himself and McEnemey(sp?) deserve some praise, especially the latter who's only really emerging on the scene but has a great feel for the game.

I did feel sorry for Ulster cuz he did seem to whistle you off the pitch in the first 15 min, but he couldn't be clearer in what he wanted and Ulster were being naive in the breakdown. As a Leinster fan over the past few months I've learned not to criticize a ref when it's not going your way, just gotta hope the team has the ability to adapt.

IMO he saw it. I've only seen it in real time but he seemed to glance over more than once as I said to AWEC during the game yesterday. I was surprised Healy got away with it