Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

catbear

Phoenix wrote: »

I find it interesting that there a vast numbers of people who don't see the connection of the Irish language with the Irish culture and it's prevailing influence oh how English language is used and spoken even today.

Culture is a societal phenomena whereas Irish in education was a political project.

recedite

dubhthach wrote: »

Children of migrants unless they attend a Gaelcholáiste (and a Gaelscoil before that) aren't gonna get opportunity to sit the Leaving Cert through Irish (so none of those extra mythical points). In general "new Irish" have more positive view of the language as they see it as part of the historical/cultural framework of the country that they now call home. So for example I've seen interviews on tv with guys from Nigeria who are doing Irish classes in their local school as they believe (a) it helps them integrate into framework of Irish society (b) to set an example to their children.

Well, I also heard of a chinese guy who learned basic Irish before he came here, and then was surprised to discover that he couldn't use it to communicate with the general population. Just because foreigners may have a somewhat "misguided" view of the situation, it does not mean they should be applauded for that.

Also I think you are picking up the previous thing re the migrant kids and the Leaving Cert points wrong. The other poster pointed out that as the migrant kids cannot claim to have any "spoken Irish" in the home, they will be last on the waiting list for the Gaelscoil. And therefore will not get access to the bonus points reserved for Gaelgeoirs in the Leaving Cert.
But this will not necessarily cause them to do less well in the exams, because they compensate by having a better work ethic.
I have noticed this particularly with Polish kids. I'm guessing that not only are they smarter and more motivated than the average Irish kid, but they are probably smarter than the average kid in Poland, which I would put down to the classic "brain drain" effect. Something we ourselves have suffered from for so long. Poland's loss is Ireland's gain.

Iwasfrozen

recedite wrote: »

Well, I also heard of a chinese guy who learned basic Irish before he came here, and then was surprised to discover that he couldn't use it to communicate with the general population. Just because foreigners may have a somewhat "misguided" view of the situation, it does not mean they should be applauded for that. .

That was a short film on tg4.

recedite

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That was a short film on tg4.

That may be so, but if Nigerians are trying to get their kids to learn Irish as a means to protect themselves from xenophobia, I don't see that as something we should be proud of.

Iwasfrozen

recedite wrote: »

That may be so, but if Nigerians are trying to get their kids to learn Irish as a means to protect themselves from xenophobia, I don't see that as something we should be proud of.

Totally agree, xenophobia in gaelscoils is a very serious propaganda threat to the Irish language movement which Irish enthusiasts often ignore to their own detriment.

Gaelgangnuis

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Totally agree, xenophobia in gaelscoils is a very serious propaganda threat to the Irish language movement which Irish enthusiasts often ignore to their own detriment.

Xenophobia in Gaelscoils is something that those who like to discredit the Irish language movement often like to point to despite not having a single shred of evidence to support the claim.

Iwasfrozen

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

Xenophobia in Gaelscoils is something that those who like to discredit the Irish language movement often like to point to despite not having a single shred of evidence to support the claim.

What evidence do you want? A survey? People will lie so as not to appear bigoted.

Sometimes the nature of the problem makes gathering conclusive evidence troublesome, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

Gaelgangnuis

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What evidence do you want?

Anything at all really, the problem with this claim is that although it is often made by those who have a problem with Irish, no evidence or any kind have ever been put forward to support it. The most i'v ever seen is 'someone told me one time that this was their motivation'.
Maybe the story is true, though it's doubtful to be honest. But even if it is, it shows no more then the opinion of a few individuals, it can hardily be said to represent parents of Gaelscoil children as a whole and it says nothing about the schools themselves.

Sometimes the nature of the problem makes gathering conclusive evidence troublesome, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

True, but then again its not fair to spread baseless malicious rumors. Generally I feel that if you're going to make the claim it should be based on something, and certainly on more than your own personal prejudices.

dubhthach

recedite wrote: »

Well, I also heard of a chinese guy who learned basic Irish before he came here, and then was surprised to discover that he couldn't use it to communicate with the general population. Just because foreigners may have a somewhat "misguided" view of the situation, it does not mean they should be applauded for that.

Also I think you are picking up the previous thing re the migrant kids and the Leaving Cert points wrong. The other poster pointed out that as the migrant kids cannot claim to have any "spoken Irish" in the home, they will be last on the waiting list for the Gaelscoil. And therefore will not get access to the bonus points reserved for Gaelgeoirs in the Leaving Cert.
But this will not necessarily cause them to do less well in the exams, because they compensate by having a better work ethic.
I have noticed this particularly with Polish kids. I'm guessing that not only are they smarter and more motivated than the average Irish kid, but they are probably smarter than the average kid in Poland, which I would put down to the classic "brain drain" effect. Something we ourselves have suffered from for so long. Poland's loss is Ireland's gain.

A piece of fiction (Yu Ming is ainm dom) shouldn't be confused for fact, wars have started on less

There are no bonus points reserved for Gaelgeoir's that just Bearloirí spin. There are points for those who sit the exam in Irish, given the lack of resources available, again 50%+ of those who sit exams in Irish see no grade increases, mainly as you have to do bad in your exams to see any benefit (10% of grade you received for scores under 75%). Of course the solution to that is abolish the points race that is the Leaving Cert while at the time provide actual texts/materials that cover the curriculum through the medium of Irish.

It shouldn't be surprised that even in Gaeltacht secondary schools and Gaelcholáistí (in the Galltacht), that students sit their exams through english by and large (can you get grind schools through medium of Irish for Leaving Cert Biology?)

The vast majority of Irish people sending children to Gaelscoileanna in Dublin are Bearloirí so your point about Migrants been on bottom of list is a red herring, they are in exact same position linguistically as Bearloirí Irish parents, if anything they actually probably have an advantage linguistically speaking as they tend to have exposure to at least 2 languages anyways (english and their home language).

dubhthach

recedite wrote: »

That may be so, but if Nigerians are trying to get their kids to learn Irish as a means to protect themselves from xenophobia, I don't see that as something we should be proud of.

Or it could the answer the dude actually gave which was (I'm paraphrasing from memory)

"My children are Irish, the Irish language is part of their cultural heritage, it's important that I respect that"

dubhthach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What evidence do you want? A survey? People will lie so as not to appear bigoted.

Sometimes the nature of the problem makes gathering conclusive evidence troublesome, that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist.

So hearsay in other words, next ye be spreading a "Blood libel", you do know that as a citizen if you have evidence of illegality it's your responsibility to report it.

MayoAreMagic

eire4 wrote: »

A legitimate point you make if you have any facts rather then conjecture to back up the suggestion your making that taking time to learn Irish hurts students in Gaelscoil and their ability to do well in subjetcs Maths or other EU languages.

Well it is straightforward enough. You have x amount of time to spend at subjects. If you have to learn them through another medium then you have to spend a large period of that time available, learning that medium first, which in turn reduces the time available to learn the subject you actually want to use. If you spent the entire time learning the subject in question then it stands to reason you would be better at it. It is like taking a detour on a journey and claiming it was faster than going direct. In other words physically impossible. Remove the fact that it is irish from the equation for a second. Say it is learn maths through progressive dance. Do you think that is going to be as effective as just learning maths? Of course not, and if it is we should really be looking to improve our maths courses, not looking to bring in more progressive dance!

The example of the young scientists exhibition was given. My answer to that is; What value did the irish add to the science project? The honest answer is none. Then imagine how well they could have done if they hadn't had to spend so much of their time learning irish first?

Gaelgangnuis

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well it is straightforward enough. You have x amount of time to spend at subjects. If you have to learn them through another medium then you have to spend a large period of that time available, learning that medium first, which in turn reduces the time available to learn the subject you actually want to use. If you spent the entire time learning the subject in question then it stands to reason you would be better at it. It is like taking a detour on a journey and claiming it was faster than going direct. In other words physically impossible. Remove the fact that it is irish from the equation for a second. Say it is learn maths through progressive dance. Do you think that is going to be as effective as just learning maths? Of course not, and if it is we should really be looking to improve our maths courses, not looking to bring in more progressive dance!

The example of the young scientists exhibition was given. My answer to that is; What value did the irish add to the science project? The honest answer is none. Then imagine how well they could have done if they hadn't had to spend so much of their time learning irish first?

The results that these schools get tell a different story. Schools that teach through second language immersion operate in many countries quite successfully. While it may seem to you that learning through a second language should negatively impact students, a large body of research on this type of education internationally and actual results say otherwise.

Iwasfrozen

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

Anything at all really, the problem with this claim is that although it is often made by those who have a problem with Irish, no evidence or any kind have ever been put forward to support it. The most i'v ever seen is 'someone told me one time that this was their motivation'.
Maybe the story is true, though it's doubtful to be honest. But even if it is, it shows no more then the opinion of a few individuals, it can hardily be said to represent parents of Gaelscoil children as a whole and it says nothing about the schools themselves.



True, but then again its not fair to spread baseless malicious rumors. Generally I feel that if you're going to make the claim it should be based on something, and certainly on more than your own personal prejudices.

We have heard many first hand accounts of parents who have experienced xenophobia in gaelscoils both from other parents and teachers. Is this conclusive evidence? Or course not but hearsay comes from somewhere. It does warrant caution, both by parents thinking of sending their children to gaelscoils and the leaders of the gaelscoils themselves.

Unfortunately it's in the principal's interest to turn a blind eye to these issues so I doubt anything will be done and the reputation of gaelscoils will continue to degrade.

dubhthach wrote: »

So hearsay in other words, next ye be spreading a "Blood libel", you do know that as a citizen if you have evidence of illegality it's your responsibility to report it.

Yes.

Gaelgangnuis

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We have heard many first hand accounts of parents who have experienced xenophobia in gaelscoils both from other parents and teachers.

Have we? I haven't, not once have I ever heard of a report of xenophobia from a teacher in a gaelscoil. As for those from parents, any I have heard have been anecdotal in nature, ie 'someone told me once that they heard someone say...' etc.

I have no doubt that some parents of kids in gaelscoileanna are xenophobic, the same can be said for any school and I have seen nothing to suggest that it is a problem that is specific to gaelscoileanna or in any way more pronounced when it comes to Irish medium schools than other schools.

That some with a problem with the Irish language like to talk up supposed xenophobia in Gaelscoileanna, without ever backing up their claims, does not mean that there is a more pronounced problem in Gaelscoileanna than elsewhere.

Grudaire

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We have heard many first hand accounts of parents who have experienced xenophobia in gaelscoils both from other parents and teachers. Is this conclusive evidence? Or course not but hearsay comes from somewhere. It does warrant caution, both by parents thinking of sending their children to gaelscoils and the leaders of the gaelscoils themselves.

Ah come on now. 'Many first hand accounts' - I've heard no accounts about Gaelscoileanna, and a small few from English medium schools..

It would be biased of me to make any judgement based on this..
I think it's reasonable to suggest that Iwasfrozen h has a slight bias based on posts though.

MayoAreMagic

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

The results that these schools get tell a different story. Schools that teach through second language immersion operate in many countries quite successfully. While it may seem to you that learning through a second language should negatively impact students, a large body of research on this type of education internationally and actual results say otherwise.

They do tell a story but not the one you are claiming. The bottom line is this, it is physically impossible to go from point A to point B more quickly by going via point X. No amount of studies can change that. If you can go via point X in the same timescale, then what it says is there is room to improve in going from A to B - not that point X is the way forward.

Gaelgangnuis

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

They do tell a story but not the one you are claiming. The bottom line is this, it is physically impossible to go from point A to point B more quickly by going via point X. No amount of studies can change that. If you can go via point X in the same timescale, then what it says is there is room to improve in going from A to B - not that point X is the way forward.

We are talking about educational outcomes, something that there has been a considerable amount of research into. Not the best way to take on a journey from one place to another.

MayoAreMagic

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

We are talking about educational outcomes, something that there has been a considerable amount of research into. Not the best way to take on a journey from one place to another.

But the same concept applies. All things being equal, the more time you spend learning a subject you need/heading in the direction you need to go, the sooner you will get there. If you decide to take a detour into a totally different subject/town, it will take you longer to get where you are going. If you only have a certain amount of time i.e. a school day, then you will never get as far going through the second subject/town as you would going direct. There has been a fair bit of study on that fact too.

recedite

dubhthach wrote: »

There are no bonus points reserved for Gaelgeoir's that just Bearloirí spin. There are points for those who sit the exam in Irish, given the lack of resources available, again 50%+ of those who sit exams in Irish see no grade increases, mainly as you have to do bad in your exams to see any benefit (10% of grade you received for scores under 75%).

WTF? are you trying to say that "those who sit the exam through Irish" and "Gaelgeoir's" are two different sets of people? Of course the bonus points are for Gaelgeoirs.

I wouldn't call getting a 75% result in a higher level paper "doing bad".
A 70% result being boosted to 77% is a very nice present indeed.

And BTW, above 75 per cent the bonus will be subjected to a uniform reduction until the candidate who scores 100 per cent gets no bonus.
So a even a 99% result is boosted. But nobody gets boosted to 110% because that would be plain stupid, as well as unjust.

"the lack of resources" in Gaelscoileanna is not apparent to the outside observer. Are you thinking of Deis schools, maybe?

eire4

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Totally agree, xenophobia in gaelscoils is a very serious propaganda threat to the Irish language movement which Irish enthusiasts often ignore to their own detriment.

No the only propaganda (as no proof or evidence has been offered) here is your trying to imply Xenophobia is a key motivating factor behind parents deciding to send their kids to Gaelscoileanna. I am sure there are some racists in Gaelscoileanna just as there are some in any other schools and other walks of life in Ireland sadly.

eire4

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well it is straightforward enough. You have x amount of time to spend at subjects. If you have to learn them through another medium then you have to spend a large period of that time available, learning that medium first, which in turn reduces the time available to learn the subject you actually want to use. If you spent the entire time learning the subject in question then it stands to reason you would be better at it. It is like taking a detour on a journey and claiming it was faster than going direct. In other words physically impossible. Remove the fact that it is irish from the equation for a second. Say it is learn maths through progressive dance. Do you think that is going to be as effective as just learning maths? Of course not, and if it is we should really be looking to improve our maths courses, not looking to bring in more progressive dance!

The example of the young scientists exhibition was given. My answer to that is; What value did the irish add to the science project? The honest answer is none. Then imagine how well they could have done if they hadn't had to spend so much of their time learning irish first?

Again interesting speculation. Taking your theme further though then would suggest we need to do a serious cull of subjects within our school system that do not serve a direct utilitarian value that can directly link to economic benefit. I guess then maybe music class is out, probably PE and civics as well never mind all that pesky poetry and literature in English. What other subjects do you think should be eliminated so we can have our kids spening more time at the subjects you feel are needed?


Of course education is not just about direct utilitarian value it is about giving kids as well rounded an education as possible and hopefully developing their imagination and critical development skills among other skills.

Grudaire

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But the same concept applies. All things being equal, the more time you spend learning a subject you need/heading in the direction you need to go, the sooner you will get there. If you decide to take a detour into a totally different subject/town, it will take you longer to get where you are going. If you only have a certain amount of time i.e. a school day, then you will never get as far going through the second subject/town as you would going direct. There has been a fair bit of study on that fact too.

"All things being equal" ... Arguably the most dangerous statement when it comes to interpreting theory's.. Commonly used in economics - those guys always get it right! :pac:

Because in general all other things aren't equal. The fact of the matter is that Gaelscoils tend to perform better.
The real question is whether this is a result of selection (only smarter/harder working students attend) or some fundamental advantage due to a change in the way people learn (perhaps both!)

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

catbear

Grudaire wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that Gaelscoils tend to perform better.

But will they perform better in the long term? There's no doubt that some are very well run with a strong educational ethos but if some schools have parents that only want their kids segregated from the immigrants then obviously in those instances education is a secondary concern.

dubhthach

recedite wrote: »

WTF? are you trying to say that "those who sit the exam through Irish" and "Gaelgeoir's" are two different sets of people? Of course the bonus points are for Gaelgeoirs.

I wouldn't call getting a 75% result in a higher level paper "doing bad".
A 70% result being boosted to 77% is a very nice present indeed.

And BTW, above 75 per cent the bonus will be subjected to a uniform reduction until the candidate who scores 100 per cent gets no bonus.
So a even a 99% result is boosted. But nobody gets boosted to 110% because that would be plain stupid, as well as unjust.

"the lack of resources" in Gaelscoileanna is not apparent to the outside observer. Are you thinking of Deis schools, maybe?

Of course Gaelgeoirí are native Irish speakers, or people brought up in an Irish speaking household (eg. L1 speakers) the vast majority of children in Gaelcholáise specifically here in the Galltacht are Bearloirí (L1 english, L2 Irish). For example I would never declare myself a Gaelgeoir, I'm born a Bearloirí and english is my L1 language.

By and large schools in the Gaeltacht are by default in a disadvantage areas, after all the highest levels of non-urban deprivation in this state tend to be the Gaeltacht (for example Iorras Aithneach had 40%+ unemployment even during the boom years of 2006-2007), thence the fact large number of them are covered by "Rural DEIS scheme".

91% result is equivalent to 99% quite simply as both are A1 and get you 100 points in the leaving cert, there's no grade boost. You do know how the Leaving Cert works right?

A 70% upgrade to 77% only results in an additional 5 points, as 70% is a B3 (75 points) versus 77% which is a B2 (80 points). However to get that extra 10% in your scenario you need to be sitting one of the following through Irish:

Latin, Greek, Classical Studies, Hebrew Studies, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science, Business, Economics, Economic History, Agricultural Science, Agricultural Economics, Home Economics, Music, Business Studies, History and Appreciation of Art, Civic, Social and Political Education, Religious Education, Arabic, LCVP Link Modules - written component only.

(bold been subjects that aren't minority one's -- good luck sitting Arabic through Irish -- though both are Verb-Subject-Object (VSO) languages)

Most of the above are elective subjects, though obviously you tend to need to take at least one science subject to get into most university courses (outside of Humanities).

Again good luck at finding resources (teaching resources specifically) to use to actually prefer for the exam in Irish, for example there is no official translation of curriculum in most cases or books are outdated. As a result you will find for example even in the Gaeltacht that most schools actually "teach" (eg. prepare students for exam) through English.

The only guaranteed bonus a student in Gaelcholáiste will get is from doing higher maths in leaving cert of course their friends in english medium school get exact same bonus. Again though the better option would be to scrap the whole points race and adapt a more modern exam system/university matriculation system akin to that in the Netherlands.

kingchess

catbear wrote: »

But will they perform better in the long term? There's no doubt that some are very well run with a strong educational ethos but if some schools have parents that only want their kids segregated from the immigrants then obviously in those instances education is a secondary concern.[/Q BY your own logic no immigrant would have children attending Gaelscoils if they are so full of bigots. I can only speak for myself but my youngest girl attends a Gaelscoil and there is around 15 in her class,And maybe around a third of the parents would be from abroad-some with an Irish partner,some not, a lot of English,an Israeli and some Polish and Estonians,And this would be replicated through every class in the school,

Grudaire

catbear wrote: »

But will they perform better in the long term? There's no doubt that some are very well run with a strong educational ethos but if some schools have parents that only want their kids segregated from the immigrants then obviously in those instances education is a secondary concern.

If indeed...

I mean seriously.. A fictional situation has been created (based on things some posters have 'heard') and now forms the basis of anti-Gaelscoilers on this thread..

dubhthach

Grudaire wrote: »

If indeed...

I mean seriously.. A fictional situation has been created (based on things some posters have 'heard') and now forms the basis of anti-Gaelscoilers on this thread..

Just wait until they produce a copy of "The Protocols of the Elders of Ériu"

MayoAreMagic

eire4 wrote: »

Again interesting speculation. Taking your theme further though then would suggest we need to do a serious cull of subjects within our school system that do not serve a direct utilitarian value that can directly link to economic benefit. I guess then maybe music class is out, probably PE and civics as well never mind all that pesky poetry and literature in English. What other subjects do you think should be eliminated so we can have our kids spening more time at the subjects you feel are needed?

Well it isn't speculation it is a proven mathematical fact.
As for culling subjects, I never suggested that at all. Simply make them elective and in doing so, prioritise things like maths, science, etc, i.e. subjects that act as cornerstones for a huge range of careers and thus give people more opportunities. I mean maths is used by everyone from a labourer to a computer scientist. Which of those need irish too? Surely that is only logical? So if you want to go into irish you can elect to do that. The thing is only a fraction of people want to go into irish, so why do they all have to spend time learning it every day?

eire4 wrote: »

Of course education is not just about direct utilitarian value it is about giving kids as well rounded an education as possible and hopefully developing their imagination and critical development skills among other skills.

Exactly, so why force so much irish onto them? Maybe they would rather German...

MayoAreMagic

Grudaire wrote: »

"All things being equal" ... Arguably the most dangerous statement when it comes to interpreting theory's.. Commonly used in economics - those guys always get it right! :pac:

Because in general all other things aren't equal. The fact of the matter is that Gaelscoils tend to perform better.
The real question is whether this is a result of selection (only smarter/harder working students attend) or some fundamental advantage due to a change in the way people learn (perhaps both!)

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

But a minute ago you were crediting the Gaelscoils with performing just as well via irish, now you are accepting that there are in fact other factors at play - so obviously there could in fact be a big difference between learning science directly, and having to learn irish first, then science, and these factors have been disguising this...

This has been my point all along. You cant claim that learning via irish is just as effective because of the results (which is what you have been doing) - there are too many other factors at play. If those are the findings then really and truly we need to improve our direct learning system.

As regards the assumption of all things being equal, you need to do this to remove variables and find what is best practice. When you remove the variables, learning maths by learning irish first isn't as effective as just learning maths. This is undeniable.

As for your proof of what I said, Pythagoras wrote a fairly complete proof of this theory a few years back... Maybe you were doing irish that day...