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Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils
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Spanish Eyes wrote: »But quite honestly, what impact have they had up to now?
Does the GS ethos permeate the general population?
It appears to be a closed shop in many respects.
Unfortunately there are very few opportunities for those with Irish to speak it. That is the problem, not Gaelscoilleanna or the lack of them. Sure aren't all kids taught Irish at school?
It's got snob value alright, and many of the parents couldn't say Conas a ta tu if you paid them.
The chances of a child getting into a Gael Scoil whose parents have little or no Irish is really very small. So I think you're making this up.0 -
The chances of a child getting into a Gael Scoil whose parents have little or no Irish is really very small. So I think you're making this up.
That's rubbish. Gaelscoileanna take children from ethnic backgrounds other than Irish. It depends on the areas the schools are in.0 -
Sort of. But unless they use this facility in everyday life, it has little effect.
The whole idea is that you facilitate children with the ability to use the language in every day life. That's what the op wants for her child. That's what many parents all over the country want for their children. That is also the reason for setting up these schools.0 -
ezra_pound wrote: »The whole idea is that you facilitate children with the ability to use the language in every day life. That's what the op wants for her child. That's what many parents all over the country want for their children. That is also the reason for setting up these schools.
Yes, I know that. But unless that translates into using the language in everyday life, it's pointless. And for most kids it doesn't. As I said before, most leave the language at the school gate and revert directly to English.0 -
The chances of a child getting into a Gael Scoil whose parents have little or no Irish is really very small. So I think you're making this up.
That's rubbish. Gaelscoileanna take children from ethnic backgrounds other than Irish. It depends on the areas the schools are in.
Well no. It depends on competition.
Gael scoileanna have their own admissions policies which of course prioritises parent and child ability in the language.
If there is competition, and there is a lot at the moment because of the baby boom, and the good reputation many of these schools have, there are few children who will get in if their parents can't show even a basic interest in the language.
Of course there are many foreigners who have good Irish or have made efforts to learn a bit and they are likewise at an advantage for this reason.0 -
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katydid wrote:Out of interest, why did you choose not to go the Meanscoil?
Tiny classes, it's 15km up the road, the bus there left 8.30 or so and the school I chose is a 7 minute walk. Simplicity, way more choices for subjects elsewhere. While out of choice I'd still go back again, it was a bit sheltered. Big school hits hard...0 -
ezra_pound wrote: »That's rubbish. Gaelscoileanna take children from ethnic backgrounds other than Irish. It depends on the areas the schools are in.
Well no. It depends on competition.
Gael scoileanna have their own admissions policies which of course prioritises parent and child ability in the language.
If there is competition, and there is a lot at the moment because of the baby boom, and the good reputation many of these schools have, there are few children who will get in if their parents can't show even a basic interest in the language.
Of course there are many foreigners who have good Irish or have made efforts to learn a bit and they are likewise at an advantage for this reason.[/QUOTE]
Well yes. I see the Gaelscoil near me and kids of different ethnic origins go there. I live in a fairly mixed middle class area. I hear and see the parents waiting when I am out walking and a lot of them are not Irish. And it's kind of hard to miss the black kids.
No doubt in some areas they will invent criteria which favour children who already have Irish in the home, but it's not necessarily the norm.0 -
Yes, I know that. But unless that translates into using the language in everyday life, it's pointless. And for most kids it doesn't. As I said before, most leave the language at the school gate and revert directly to English.
No. It's not pointless. If someone is a philistine and doesn't appreciate language, learning and culture, that's all well and good. They can live their own life the way they want to.
However the benefits of learning a language to a high level and being educated through it are almost unquantifiable. It brings a richness to life and a much better ability to learn and think open mindedly. It can only benefit people.
At any rate by deciding that it's pointless, and not encouraging your child to learn Irish, you're depriving them of the option, where they may wish years later that they could speak the language.
If people want to speak Irish every day, they can and many do.
I'm amazed that you seem to know so many of the parents and children- as well as your experience of how they leave the Irish in the classroom. I'm always amazed at how Irish remains so strong among kids who went to Gael scoileanna when they're together in adulthood.0 -
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ezra_pound wrote: »No. It's not pointless. If someone is a philistine and doesn't appreciate language, learning and culture, that's all well and good. They can live their own life the way they want to.
However the benefits of learning a language to a high level and being educated through it are almost unequantiable. It brings a richness to life and a much better ability to learn and think open mindedly. It can only benefit people.
At any rate by deciding that it's pointless, and not encouraging your child to learn Irish, you're depriving them of the option, where they may wish years later that they could speak the language.
If people want to speak Irish every day, they can and many do.
I'm amazed that you seem to know so many of the parents and children- as well as your experience of how they leave the Irish in the classroom. I'm always amazed at how Irish remains so strong among kids who went to Gael scoileanna when they're together in adulthood.
I have taught languages for thirty years. I know about the benefits of language and how it impacts on culture. I also know that a language is of no use unless it is used in real life. If a language is used in a purely academic or educational context it won't have any impact on popular culture. The FACT is that only a minority of pupils in gaelscoileanna speak Irish outside school.
I'm not saying it's pointless to learn a language or to encourage your child to; that's the last thing someone like me would say. But I've been involved with language learning long enough to know the difference between language LEARNING and language USAGE.
I don't know any of the parents. I just see them when I walk the dog, waiting for the kids to come out of the gaelscoil near my home. I hear them talking, I see their etnhicity.0 -
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I have taught languages for thirty years. I know about the benefits of language and how it impacts on culture. I also know that a language is of no use unless it is used in real life. If a language is used in a purely academic or educational context it won't have any impact on popular culture. The FACT is that only a minority of pupils in gaelscoileanna speak Irish outside school.
I'm not saying it's pointless to learn a language or to encourage your child to; that's the last thing someone like me would say. But I've been involved with language learning long enough to know the difference between language LEARNING and language USAGE.
I don't know any of the parents. I just see them when I walk the dog, waiting for the kids to come out of the gaelscoil near my home. I hear them talking, I see their etnhicity.
Right. Well you're kind of getting back to the chicken and the egg question there. If Marty mcfly went back to 1955 in his delorean and signed his parents up for Irish degrees in hill valley college, it is possible that in an alternative 1985 marty would have grown up bilingual in the home and could have spoken Irish with all of his family.
If he never did this then this would not have been possible. You need people learning a language in order to speak it.
Irish is used in many domestic settings which are not educational or academic. Many of the children going to these schools would speak Irish in the home to varying degrees. They're less likely to use it when people who have a grudge against the language and regard it as pointless, but that doesn't mean they don't read their children bedtime stories in Irish or share precious family moments in Irish.
I went out with a girl in college who went to a Gael Scoil and there was a lot of Irish spoken among her former class mates there.
Just because you don't speak Irish daily or weekly doesn't mean that you can reduce it to the level of academic, educational, or insignificant culturally.
It's culturally significant for those who speak it.0 -
I have taught languages for thirty years. I know about the benefits of language and how it impacts on culture. I also know that a language is of no use unless it is used in real life. If a language is used in a purely academic or educational context it won't have any impact on popular culture. The FACT is that only a minority of pupils in gaelscoileanna speak Irish outside school.
I'm not saying it's pointless to learn a language or to encourage your child to; that's the last thing someone like me would say. But I've been involved with language learning long enough to know the difference between language LEARNING and language USAGE.
I don't know any of the parents. I just see them when I walk the dog, waiting for the kids to come out of the gaelscoil near my home. I hear them talking, I see their etnhicity.
And finally. To the woman who has been teaching languages for thirty years.
Ask yourself the question:
How many of your students use the language you taught them daily, weekly, or monthly?
Think about it.
EDIT: here of course I'm getting back to your LEARNING / USAGE distinction0 -
People have been learning Irish since the year dot. My parents both got their secondary education through Irish long before "gaelscoileanna" and "meanscoileanna". They had good Irish. But they never used it, because Irish is not a language used for daily communications in this country outside small areas of the countryside.ezra_pound wrote: »Right. Well you're kind of getting back to the chicken and the egg question there. If Marty mcfly went back to 1955 in his delorean and signed his parents up for Irish degrees in hill valley college, it is possible that in an alternative 1985 marty would have grown up bilingual in the home and could have spoken Irish with all of his family.
If he never did this then this would not have been possible. You need people learning a language in order to speak it.
Irish is used in many domestic settings which are not educational or academic. Many of the children going to these schools would speak Irish in the home to varying degrees. They're less likely to use it when people who have a grudge against the language and regard it as pointless, but that doesn't mean they don't read their children bedtime stories in Irish or share precious family moments in Irish.
I went out with a girl in college who went to a Gael Scoil and there was a lot of Irish spoken among her former class mates there.
Just because you don't speak Irish daily or weekly doesn't mean that you can reduce it to the level of academic, educational, or insignificant culturally.
It's culturally significant for those who speak it.
Maybe some of these kids speak Irish at home, but very few of them speak it outside the home. I encounter young people in the course of my work who have gone through their primary AND secondary education as gaeilge, and how tell me, even those from Gaeltacht areas, that they rarely speak it outside the home. It simply doesn't feature in their anglophone world of Facebook and Youtube.
Being culturally significant to those who speak it is irrelevant, if those who speak it don't speak it in everyday life.0 -
ezra_pound wrote: »And finally. To the woman who has been teaching languages for thirty years.
Ask yourself the question:
How many of your students use the language you taught them daily, weekly, or monthly?
Think about it.
Very few. What is your point?0 -
Very few. What is your point?
So the vast majority LEARNT but do not USE.
what's the point?
By your logic there is none.
Let me proceed... from your teaching of language, how many of your students attained true bilingualism where they had fluency in the language you taught and got the same benefits that a Gael Scoil pupil would as per:
http://science.time.com/2013/07/18/how-the-brain-benefits-from-being-bilingual/
http://www.actfl.org/advocacy/discover-languages/for-parents/cognitive
?
The cognitive advantage of bilingualism alone is a good reason to send you l your children to a gael Scoil!0 -
People have been learning Irish since the year dot. My parents both got their secondary education through Irish long before "gaelscoileanna" and "meanscoileanna". They had good Irish. But they never used it, because Irish is not a language used for daily communications in this country outside small areas of the countryside.
Maybe some of these kids speak Irish at home, but very few of them speak it outside the home. I encounter young people in the course of my work who have gone through their primary AND secondary education as gaeilge, and how tell me, even those from Gaeltacht areas, that they rarely speak it outside the home. It simply doesn't feature in their anglophone world of Facebook and Youtube.
Being culturally significant to those who speak it is irrelevant, if those who speak it don't speak it in everyday life.
Is the home with your family not everyday life?0 -
People have been learning Irish since the year dot. My parents both got their secondary education through Irish long before "gaelscoileanna" and "meanscoileanna". They had good Irish. But they never used it, because Irish is not a language used for daily communications in this country outside small areas of the countryside.
Maybe some of these kids speak Irish at home, but very few of them speak it outside the home. I encounter young people in the course of my work who have gone through their primary AND secondary education as gaeilge, and how tell me, even those from Gaeltacht areas, that they rarely speak it outside the home. It simply doesn't feature in their anglophone world of Facebook and Youtube.
Being culturally significant to those who speak it is irrelevant, if those who speak it don't speak it in everyday life.
That's a pity. My mother did her third level studies in university through Irish before gaelscoileanna were set up. My father learnt Irish by going to the Gaeltacht in his twenties.
Luckily for me I learnt Irish at home as it was a second language in our house used daily.
I spent six months in France and have good French yet I am more likely to benefit from having Irish on a day to day basis than French.0 -
I see them being used as a means of perpetuating snobbery and racism in my locality.
When asked by a parent why I wasn't sending my child to the gaelscoil, and I said I placed more value on maths than on irish, and I chose the school with the better maths reputation. The response was, "but what about the foreigners".
It's a string of chelsea tractors at our local gaelscoil. Which is, by the way, also a catholic school. The protestant school is down the road. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but that experience has coloured my view considerably.
If you're so concerned about maths then maybe you should bring your kids to the Gael Scoil!
http://www.actfl.org/advocacy/discover-languages/for-parents/cognitive
"...Additionally, foreign language learning is much more a cognitive problem solving activity than a linguistic activity, overall. Studies have shown repeatedly that foreign language learning increases critical thinking skills, creativity, and flexibility of mind in young children. Students who are learning a foreign language out-score their non-foreign language learning peers in the verbal and, surprisingly to some, the math sections of standardized tests. This relationship between foreign language study and increased mathematical skill development, particularly in the area of problem solving, points once again to the fact that second language learning is more of a cognitive than linguistic activity.
A 2007 study in Harwich, Massachusetts, showed that students who studied a foreign language in an articulated sequence outperformed their non-foreign language learning peers on the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System (MCAS) test after two-three years and significantly outperformed them after seven-eight years on all MCAS subtests.
Furthermore, there is research (Webb bibliography) that shows that children who study a foreign language, even when this second language study takes time away from the study of mathematics, outperform (on standardized tests of mathematics) students who do not study a foreign language and have more mathematical instruction during the school day. Again, this research upholds the notion that learning a second language is an exercise in cognitive problem solving and that the effects of second language instruction are directly transferable to the area of mathematical skill development."0 -
Spanish Eyes wrote: »But quite honestly, what impact have they had up to now?
Does the GS ethos permeate the general population?
It appears to be a closed shop in many respects.
Unfortunately there are very few opportunities for those with Irish to speak it. That is the problem, not Gaelscoilleanna or the lack of them. Sure aren't all kids taught Irish at school?
It's got snob value alright, and many of the parents couldn't say Conas a ta tu if you paid them.
You have a very high expectation of gaelscoileanna, that they should permeate their ethos through society. Do you expect the same of other schools. As it happens gaelscoileanna do tend to bring about more parent involvement and if this means that the impact of its ethos is stronger than other schools then that's a good thing but at the end of the day they're schools.
I also don't understand your assertion that there's snobbery involved in gaelscoileanna. We're not talking about Eton or even Clongowes. Gaelscoileanna are not exclusive institutions. They just favour people who show efforts and ability regarding speaking the Irish language.
What do you mean it appears to be a closed shop? Do other schools provide more services to the non student local community than gaelscoileanna. Again I don't understand your point.0 -
Spanish Eyes wrote: »But quite honestly, what impact have they had up to now?
.
What impact do you expect them to have had? A golden decade for Irish international soccer? A new philosophical movement? An Irish space programme?
The gaelscoileanna have successfully given tens of thousands of children bilingualism and a fluency and love of the Irish language. They have also given many parents a focus for improving and practising their use of the language.
Presuming that this is the principal aim or mission of the schools they have been highly successful by any metric.0 -
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Spanish Eyes wrote: »Knock yourself out my dear.
There are GS where there are only white IRISH KIDS. That is the reality.
There is no discrimination on behalf of the school, it is merely that some people are not interested, or feel their kids are still learning English and Irish would be a tad too difficult for them, and there is the snob value of such exclusivity aswell.
I'm trembling in my boots now that I could be arrested for saying something that happens. I am not inciting hatred, nor are the schools, it is just the set up.
It would be similar to an English speaking Irish parent not being willing to send their kid to a Chinese/Russian speaking school here.
But get the handcuffs out for me why don't you.
Then why did you draw a parallel between segregated schools in the us south and gaelscoileanna in modern Ireland?0 -
I agree totally that bilingualism can have a cognitive benefit.ezra_pound wrote: »So the vast majority LEARNT but do not USE.
what's the point?
By your logic there is none.
Let me proceed... from your teaching of language, how many of your students attained true bilingualism where they had fluency in the language you taught and got the same benefits that a Gael Scoil pupil would as per:
http://science.time.com/2013/07/18/how-the-brain-benefits-from-being-bilingual/
http://www.actfl.org/advocacy/discover-languages/for-parents/cognitive
?
The cognitive advantage of bilingualism alone is a good reason to send you l your children to a gael Scoil!
I still have no idea, however, what point you are trying to make about the fact that most of my students never use the language they learn. They aren't learning it to achieve bilingualism, so the benefits of it to them are immaterial.
This thread is about the cultural impact of Gaelscoileanna, not about the cognitive benefits of bilingualism. And the fact is that since most pupils of Gaelscoileanna don't bring the Irish language outside the classroom, the question is whether or not their school experience will have any impact on the outside world. Since culturally their schools are no different than any other Irish school, and language is the only difference, the impact is and will be minimal.0 -
ezra_pound wrote: »Is the home with your family not everyday life?
Yes, but it's a limited forum, culturally speaking. And let's be realistic here; the amount of people who speak Irish at home outside the Gaeltacht is very small.0 -
I agree totally that bilingualism can have a cognitive benefit.
I still have no idea, however, what point you are trying to make about the fact that most of my students never use the language they learn. They aren't learning it to achieve bilingualism, so the benefits of it to them are immaterial.
This thread is about the cultural impact of Gaelscoileanna, not about the cognitive benefits of bilingualism. And the fact is that since most pupils of Gaelscoileanna don't bring the Irish language outside the classroom, the question is whether or not their school experience will have any impact on the outside world. Since culturally their schools are no different than any other Irish school, and language is the only difference, the impact is and will be minimal.
I was referring to your own argument against gaelscoileanna here:
"I have taught languages for thirty years. I know about the benefits of language and how it impacts on culture. I also know that a language is of no use unless it is used in real life. If a language is used in a purely academic or educational context it won't have any impact on popular culture. The FACT is that only a minority of pupils in gaelscoileanna speak Irish outside school.
I'm not saying it's pointless to learn a language or to encourage your child to; that's the last thing someone like me would say. But I've been involved with language learning long enough to know the difference between language LEARNING and language USAGE.
I don't know any of the parents. I just see them when I walk the dog, waiting for the kids to come out of the gaelscoil near my home. I hear them talking, I see their etnhicity."
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If gaelscoileanna and the teaching of Irish need to be held up to this standard, so to should your language teaching.
The fact that many thousands of children speak Irish every day at school and with their families and in many occaisons in their lives must place a greater UTILITY RETURN from gaelscoileanna teaching Irish to you teaching your students.0 -
Yes, but it's a limited forum, culturally speaking. And let's be realistic here; the amount of people who speak Irish at home outside the Gaeltacht is very small.
How do you know? My father speaks Irish several times a week outside of the home in a social context in Dublin. It is conceivable that a very large percentage of parents with children in gaelscoileanna c. 40k speak Irish to differing degrees in the home.
We really don't know what goes behind closed doors.
I spoke Irish in the home growing up so I suppose it's easier for me to conceive this reality than it is for you.
In the 2011 census 82600 people say they speak Irish outside of school every day.0 -
I agree totally that bilingualism can have a cognitive benefit.
I still have no idea, however, what point you are trying to make about the fact that most of my students never use the language they learn. They aren't learning it to achieve bilingualism, so the benefits of it to them are immaterial.
This thread is about the cultural impact of Gaelscoileanna, not about the cognitive benefits of bilingualism. And the fact is that since most pupils of Gaelscoileanna don't bring the Irish language outside the classroom, the question is whether or not their school experience will have any impact on the outside world. Since culturally their schools are no different than any other Irish school, and language is the only difference, the impact is and will be minimal.
Well to a degree it's about critical mass. If 35% of the population became confident and fluent in the language and enjoyed speaking it, the potential for it to be used in many public places would be quite substantial.
Again in order to get there you need to get over the negativity from people who moan about how they never use the language.
Of course they never use it, any more than I use Russian or Croatian - I don't know these languages.
At any rate many very widespread and strong languages are used solely in family settings around the world in diglossic societies. Irish has an ancient literature and has produced literature and art all the way through history and prehistory up to the modern day.
How can it be of no cultural value?0 -
ezra_pound wrote: »That's a pity. My mother did her third level studies in university through Irish before gaelscoileanna were set up. My father learnt Irish by going to the Gaeltacht in his twenties.
Luckily for me I learnt Irish at home as it was a second language in our house used daily.
I spent six months in France and have good French yet I am more likely to benefit from having Irish on a day to day basis than French.
My father went to the Gaeltacht as part of his teacher training in the fifties, but never had to use Irish as a teacher. My mother never had any contact with Irish after leaving school.
I did the LC in 1977, the Ceard Teastais two years later, and since then I have never used Irish.
I have never benefited in any way on a day to day basis from having Irish. I wish I coudl say otherwise.0 -
My father went to the Gaeltacht as part of his teacher training in the fifties, but never had to use Irish as a teacher. My mother never had any contact with Irish after leaving school.
I did the LC in 1977, the Ceard Teastais two years later, and since then I have never used Irish.
I have never benefited in any way on a day to day basis from having Irish. I wish I coudl say otherwise.
That's a pity. If you do an informal course you may really enjoy speaking Irish with the other students. Or you could go to a group in some of the public libraries. It might not be your thing but that's probably the easiest way to get speaking it.0 -
ezra_pound wrote: »That's a pity. If you do an informal course you may really enjoy speaking Irish with the other students. Or you could go to a group in some of the public libraries. It might not be your thing but that's probably the easiest way to get speaking it.
I don't really see the point in speaking Irish in a night class or a library. That's an artificial environment, not a genuine communication situation for the purpose of carrying out tasks or achieving objectives. I've no interest in that kind of thing, especially since it isn't even a prelude to real life communication.
I learn languages to use them. Not to keep them on life support.0 -
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I don't really see the point in speaking Irish in a night class or a library. That's an artificial environment, not a genuine communication situation for the purpose of carrying out tasks or achieving objectives. I've no interest in that kind of thing, especially since it isn't even a prelude to real life communication.
I learn languages to use them. Not to keep them on life support.
Well. You just don't know. You could start a real life friendship through a class where you would get to use the Irish language in a real way.
I mean, this (these) language (s) that you teach, how often do you use them for a genuine communication situation for the purpose of carrying out tasks or achieving objectives? Other than actually teaching them of course?
Just curious.0
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