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Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

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    #122
    Gaelgangnuis
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭Gaelgangnuis


    katydid wrote: »
    It's not made up figures. I was going to say 100%, but I thought I'd be fair. There are the cupla focail at the beginning of the odd speeches. Other than that, where is Irish used in our everyday lives in Ireland outside of the Gaeltacht?

    I didn't say that former Gaelscoil pupils are no more likely to use Irish in daily life - I'm sure they would be happy to, were there occasions. But there are not.

    Sorry, but you have your head in the sand at this point. You can refuse to recognize that there is an Irish speaking community in Ireland, but that does not mean they don't exist and to those of us who speak Irish as part of their every day lives, the above looks like nothing more than ignorant (in the uninformed sense of the word) nonsense.


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    #123
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    MayoAreMagic wrote: »
    Maybe Im in the minority, but I'd be far more concerned with my children spending time with maths than learning irish, because maths is a universal language. If learning a second language is good for a child, then get them learning German, Spanish or French. The bottom line is this, those skills will set them up for life in a huge range of areas, far more-so than someone who spends that time learning irish. Give them a background in irish, but don't sacrifice those career building blocks for the sake of it.

    At the end of the day, the only position created from having irish, is teaching other people irish, and those people will be, in the main other irish people. There will never be fortunes made in that, there will never be new inventions to be engineered or diseases cured. There will be little use for creativity or ingenuity using irish alone.

    I have worked with people who grew up in irish speaking areas. The three things they had in common were this, they all spoke good irish, none of them used it except the odd weekend they went home, and they all said they wished they had spent more time with things they could actually use instead.



    A legitimate point you make if you have any facts rather then conjecture to back up the suggestion your making that taking time to learn Irish hurts students in Gaelscoil and their ability to do well in subjetcs Maths or other EU languages.


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    #124
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gaelgangnuis wrote: »
    Sorry, but you have your head in the sand at this point. You can refuse to recognize that there is an Irish speaking community in Ireland, but that does not mean they don't exist and to those of us who speak Irish as part of their every day lives, the above looks like nothing more than ignorant (in the uninformed sense of the word) nonsense.

    Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box.


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    #125
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    Gaelgangnuis wrote: »
    As for the question of the thread itself, its hard to tell yet, the movement is still in its infancy.

    Pupils who started out in Gaelscoileanna this year are a significantly bigger group than the cohort who have come out the other side of Irish medium education this year. When those who left this year started in Irish medium education entered the system, the number of pupils in Gaelscoileanna was only just over half what it has since grown to. The cohort who were leaving back when they were starting was a much smaller group again.

    While the Gaelscoil movement has grown to represent a not insignificant sector of education, it has not yet had time to filter up in the age profile to any significant degree.
    Around 6% of school goers are now Gaelscoil students, but the percentage gets smaller as you go up in each age bracket, those now in their twenties now have a smaller percentage of former Gaelscoil students in their ranks, those in their forties now would include less than 1 percent of former Gaelscoil pupils.

    The vast majority of Gaelscoil entrants are still first generation, former Gaelscoil pupils sending their own children to a Gaelscoil is only starting to become a thing.
    That said, while small, the impact can be seen, the younger generations, the generations that include more Gaelscoil pupils/former pupils tend to be more favorable and competent in the Irish language.
    Universities are starting to see a sizable former Gaelscoil population moving onto third level and at the same time Irish Language societies in universities have undergone an explosion over the last few years, fueled largely by an influx of fluent Irish speaking former Gaelscoil pupils.

    Earlier in the thread there was criticism based on the fact that many current and former gaelscoil pupils don't use Irish outside of/after leaving school, this is undeniably true. But it is also true that Gaelscoil pupils/former pupils ability in Irish is much higher higher than the general population and their likely hood to speak Irish beyond school is also much higher than the general population.

    As this cohort of the population continues to grow over coming years, it can only mean greater competence in and use of the Irish language in the population as a whole.





    I would tend to agree with you and see the growing popularity of Gaelscoil as a positive. Certainly it will take time and a few generations of kids who grew up with it having kids themselves but I think it is great to see steps in that direction happening.


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    #126
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    katydid wrote: »
    Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box.

    If anything this thread should discuss the societal and cultural impact of the anti Irish language cohort who appear with made up facts to fight Irish speakers in every battlefield! :PAC:

    But seriously, this topic has potential. Perhaps gaelscoileanna increase the level of Irish spoken and culture in an area.. Perhaps not. Instead it's been bogged down with spurious Arguments against the language, and no comparison to other schools (English speaking)..


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    #127
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Grudaire wrote: »
    If anything this thread should discuss the societal and cultural impact of the anti Irish language cohort who appear with made up facts to fight Irish speakers in every battlefield! :PAC:

    But seriously, this topic has potential. Perhaps gaelscoileanna increase the level of Irish spoken and culture in an area.. Perhaps not. Instead it's been bogged down with spurious Arguments against the language, and no comparison to other schools (English speaking)..
    Er, there's a discussion on literalism in one of the religion forums...


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    #128
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    Grudaire wrote: »
    If anything this thread should discuss the societal and cultural impact of the anti Irish language cohort who appear with made up facts to fight Irish speakers in every battlefield! :PAC:

    But seriously, this topic has potential. Perhaps gaelscoileanna increase the level of Irish spoken and culture in an area.. Perhaps not. Instead it's been bogged down with spurious Arguments against the language, and no comparison to other schools (English speaking)..



    I do have to say it is interesting that some seem very hostile toward the Irish language.


    Its as if well if Irish cannot become a major language that is dominant in all aspects of life then we should forget it completely.


    Personally our language is something I treasure from a cultural standpoint at the very least and if the current growth in Gaelscoil ever developed to the point where most Irish people were at least bilingual I think that would be great. Will that every happen I have no idea. Certainly it would take a long time to develop to anything like that level.


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    #129
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    eire4 wrote: »

    Its as if well if Irish cannot become a major language that is dominant in all aspects of life then we should forget it completely.

    .

    No, it means that we should be realistic and stop pretending that the Gaelscoileanna will turn Irish into a language of everyday usage in Ireland.


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    #130
    Grudaire
    Registered Users Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    katydid wrote: »
    No, it means that we should be realistic and stop pretending that the Gaelscoileanna will turn Irish into a language of everyday usage in Ireland.

    I think in my experience (as a former Gaelscoiler) that Gaelscoileanna leave students with increased fluency and interest in the language, and that levels of usage are higher as a result.

    It already is a language of everyday usage for a minority in Ireland, I don't see anyone making an argument that it will become the major language here. I'm not quite sure what point you're arguing against?


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    #131
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Grudaire wrote: »
    I think in my experience (as a former Gaelscoiler) that Gaelscoileanna leave students with increased fluency and interest in the language, and that levels of usage are higher as a result.

    It already is a language of everyday usage for a minority in Ireland, I don't see anyone making an argument that it will become the major language here. I'm not quite sure what point you're arguing against?

    That it's not going to become a language of everyday use by a substantial group of people outside the Gaeltacht, which is the suggestion here.

    Students will of course leave school with fluency in the language they were schooled in, but if it's not used on a daily basis that proficiency will soon fade.


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    #132
    Gaelgangnuis
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭Gaelgangnuis


    katydid wrote: »
    No, it means that we should be realistic and stop pretending that the Gaelscoileanna will turn Irish into a language of everyday usage in Ireland.

    Irish is already a language of everyday usage in Ireland. I use it every day, so does my girlfriend, most of my friends do to.
    That you are unaware of this, or choose not to accept it make not the slightest bit of difference to this.


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    #133
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    katydid wrote: »
    No, it means that we should be realistic and stop pretending that the Gaelscoileanna will turn Irish into a language of everyday usage in Ireland.



    Irish is a language of everday use for a minority in Ireland right now today. If the current growth of Gaelscoileanna can continue and increase the everyday use of Irish I think that is great boon for us as a society and even if it doesn't make a significant difference in terms of everyday use I still think its great to see a higher number of people grow up into adulthood with a firm grasp of our language.


    Are you suggesting that because Irish is an everyday language used only by a minority in Ireland that we should shut down Gaelscoileanna and stop teaching Irish in our schools?


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    #134
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    katydid wrote: »
    Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box.

    That's more rhetoric than reality in fairness.


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    #135
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    katydid wrote: »
    Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box.



    What strikes me as real about that comment is the mocking tone of the post which shows your attitude to Irish loud and clear.


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    #136
    Dr Strange
    Registered Users Posts: 3,427 ✭✭✭Dr Strange


    OK guys, let's tone it down a bit and come back to the topic, please.


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    #137
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #138
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Phoenix wrote: »
    It worries me that the unintended consequence of how Irish is taught with gaelscoileanna is that it may be soley seen as an upper middle class language rather than a language for everyone

    Let half the Gaelscoileanna are in what would be traditionally regarded as "working class areas" for example Cabra, Crumlin, Ballymun, Coolock and Clondalkin all have Gaelscoileanna.

    It's kinda ironic people going on with the "snobby" argument given that for years people told us that it was a peasant language. I recall reading a blog post from an american learner who while in Dingle got into conversation with a local, the local who could speak Irish basically said "why would I speak a fisherman's/peasants language?" (this is in the last 5 years by the way)


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    #139
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭Crann na Beatha


    This post has been deleted.


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    #140
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Gaelgangnuis wrote: »
    Irish is already a language of everyday usage in Ireland. I use it every day, so does my girlfriend, most of my friends do to.
    That you are unaware of this, or choose not to accept it make not the slightest bit of difference to this.

    Being used every day doesn't make it a language of national use. I suspect more people use Polish every day in Ireland than use Irish. Fair play to those who use Irish, I'm delighted for them. But they are fooling themselves if they think it means anything more than that it is a limited interest in it.


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    #141
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    katydid wrote: »
    That it's not going to become a language of everyday use by a substantial group of people outside the Gaeltacht, which is the suggestion here.

    Students will of course leave school with fluency in the language they were schooled in, but if it's not used on a daily basis that proficiency will soon fade.

    after i left school (Gaelscoil/Gaelcholáiste) i used the language at every oppertunity, when i had my child, i raised her bilingually and my husband (english language primary and secondary) also speaks it.

    nether one of our families have a history of speaking irish, my mother chose to send me to a Gaelscoil simply because she had a choice of two schools and the teachers who taught her were still teaching in one of those choices and she felt my schooling would be negatively impacted because of this. She learned irish as i did and can speak it to this day,

    my child has just started in junior infants in my former Gaelscoil and any other children we have will go there, one group of irish speakers who speak it on a daily basis, all stemming from me alone being sent to a Gaelscoil.


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    #142
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    hoodwinked wrote: »
    after i left school (Gaelscoil/Gaelcholáiste) i used the language at every oppertunity, when i had my child, i raised her bilingually and my husband (english language primary and secondary) also speaks it.

    nether one of our families have a history of speaking irish, my mother chose to send me to a Gaelscoil simply because she had a choice of two schools and the teachers who taught her were still teaching in one of those choices and she felt my schooling would be negatively impacted because of this. She learned irish as i did and can speak it to this day,

    my child has just started in junior infants in my former Gaelscoil and any other children we have will go there, one group of irish speakers who speak it on a daily basis, all stemming from me alone being sent to a Gaelscoil.

    They will speak it at home and in school.


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    #143
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    I would be very surprised if there is any gael Scoil that does not favour people who have Irish in the home.
    We don't, and I certainly don't agree with that idea, it excludes many people who would be interested in having their children learn the language. We have children from all kinds of backgrounds, all religions and none. The nonsense of snobbery encouraging parents to choose Gaelscoileanna, perpetuated by David McWilliams, drives me bananas.


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    #144
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    katydid wrote: »
    Sure, the denominations own the buildings, but all the Dept. has to do is to add up the cost of what it has spent on extensions, building maintenance, caretaking and so on over the years, and offer to accept the deeds of the building in lieu....
    Our school is not owned by the Catholic church. It is DES owned.


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    #145
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Our school is not owned by the Catholic church. It is DES owned.

    All the more reason


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    #146
    Gaelgangnuis
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭Gaelgangnuis


    katydid wrote: »
    All the more reason

    For what?


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    #147
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    katydid wrote: »
    Being used every day doesn't make it a language of national use. I suspect more people use Polish every day in Ireland than use Irish. Fair play to those who use Irish, I'm delighted for them. But they are fooling themselves if they think it means anything more than that it is a limited interest in it.



    To be fair to gaelgangnuis he said a language of everyday use he did not say language of nation use. He is correct that there are some who use Irish as part of their normal everyday life.
    In terms of the Polish dig it is unfortunate that you continue to mock the Irish language. If its not your thing fair enough but it is an important part of our culture and our heritage.


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    #148
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    eire4 wrote: »
    To be fair to gaelgangnuis he said a language of everyday use he did not say language of nation use. He is correct that there are some who use Irish as part of their normal everyday life.
    In terms of the Polish dig it is unfortunate that you continue to mock the Irish language. If its not your thing fair enough but it is an important part of our culture and our heritage.

    Fair enough, he said everyday use. Pointing out that there is probably more Polish spoken as an everyday language in Ireland than Irish outside of the Gaeltacht is simply a fact. How on earth could it be mocking Irish?

    I love Irish, it just doesn't feature anywhere in my life.


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    #149
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭eire4


    katydid wrote: »
    Fair enough, he said everyday use. Pointing out that there is probably more Polish spoken as an everyday language in Ireland than Irish outside of the Gaeltacht is simply a fact. How on earth could it be mocking Irish?

    I love Irish, it just doesn't feature anywhere in my life.



    There may or may not be more Polish spoken in Ireland. I do not profess to know if that is or is not the case. You however provide no evidence for your claim that you have now presented as "fact" moving from what you said you "suspect" previously.


    For someone who claims to love Irish you sure like to mock it.


    "Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box. "




    I will ask again a question I asked earlier that you chose to ignore:


    Are you suggesting that because Irish is an everyday language used only by a minority in Ireland that we should shut down Gaelscoileanna and stop teaching Irish in our schools?


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    #150
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Our school is not owned by the Catholic church. It is DES owned.
    The context of the conversation was whether a publicly funded school should promote a particular religious ethos.
    So your school is publicly owned as well as publicly funded. What is its ethos listed as?


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    #151
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    We don't, and I certainly don't agree with that idea, it excludes many people who would be interested in having their children learn the language. We have children from all kinds of backgrounds, all religions and none. The nonsense of snobbery encouraging parents to choose Gaelscoileanna, perpetuated by David McWilliams, drives me bananas.

    Alright alright calm down.

    Of course gaelscoileanna favour people who speak Irish in the home. What's more they explicitly express this favour in their admissions policies.

    There's nothing wrong with not speaking Irish in the home but your chances of being admitted are greater if you do because it is favoured.



    What I said is:
    Quote: ezra_pound
    I would be very surprised if there is any gael Scoil that does not favour people who have Irish in the home.


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