Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

katydid wrote: »

How on earth is that "mocking"? It was hyperbole, a joke...you need to get some perspective here.

Nothing wrong with Irish being a language of the minority in Ireland. Even better if it were a language of the majority, but that will never happen. All I'm saying is that people who talk as if gaelscoileanna are going to make a significant difference need a reality check.

"Let's keep it real, the Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht could hold their AGM in a phone box. "


If the above was supposed to be a joke where was a smiley face or somthing to indicate that and why start with the words " lets keep it real" and then in a condescending mocking manner you belittle the size of the Irish speaking community. At least take ownership of what you said. You want to mock Irish speakers fine go ahead thats your prerogative. But take ownership at least of what you said.


You make another sweeping statement of fact regarding what will happen in the future saying Irish will never be the language of the majority. That may indeed be the case and is certainly the case right now. But who knows in a few generations if the Gaelscoileanna continue to grow maybe we will see more then 51% of the population at least bilingual.
Obviously nobody can predict the future of our language with certainty but I ask again the below question.


Would you like to see Irish develop over time to a point where most Irish people were at least bilingual?

katydid wrote: »

:):):):)

Enough smiley faces for you?

I am a realist. The Irish speaking community outside the Gaeltacht is tiny and will always be small even if it expands a little. That is reality and no amount of wishful thinking is going to change it.

You can predict the future of any minority language pretty accurately by looking at patterns and precedents. Unless there is huge motivation to alter the situation, such as in Israel, the only direction a minority language struggling in a sea of a very dominant language like English goes is down. Where is Cornish?
I am a linguist, I love languages, and I love Irish, the oldest still spoken language in Europe, but love and wishing and hoping don't change things. If Irish were to be revived and if the majority of the Irish population were to become bilingual, it would have happened by now, after almost a hundred years of compulsory Irish in schools.

Whatever chance it had before the advent of modern technology and the widespread use of English in that context, it hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of developing significantly beyond its current level in this country.

Those are not sweeping statements, they are facts.

All your smiley faces do now is show that you still won't take ownership of your mocking of Irish.


As for your so called facts they are indeed sweeping statements made about the future which nobody can make with any certainty. You may indeed be correct and Irish does not develop to the point where the majority can speak it fluently. But you may also be wrong only time will tell.
Talking about Irish in schools only brings up the incompetence of the Irish government for so long in that area as their idea of revival of the language was for so long to ram it down everyones throats. Hardly the kind of approach to lead to positive results for any subject. More recent governments attitudes seem to be more of the at best pay lip service but not actually do anything or care. The growing Gaelscoileanna movement may or may not make a big impact on future generations ability to speak Irish in significantly increasing numbers we will have to see. But it is a positive development.


I noticed that you claim to love Irish but could not bring yourself to answer the question:


"Would you like to see Irish develop over time to a point where most Irish people were at least bilingual?"


In any case you seem very determined to tell everyone that Irish is never going to develop and prosper as a language and that a significant number and or majority will never speak the language and seem very determined to claim that stance and opinion you have as fact.


I would have thought for someone who claims to love Irish any signs of growth such as the current Gaelscoileanna growth would be a positive thing and something to be happy about not to bash on the head. So what if the growth of Gaelscoileanna is not the panacea for the Irish language it is a positive sign for now and the future.

Irish will always be a language only for an interested minority for as long as the career benefits of learning a major European language outweigh the benefits of learning Irish. Gaelscoils won't change that.

dubhthach wrote: »

What career benefits would those be? For example in IT the default Lingua Franca is English. Learning a European language in such a case is worthless, time would be better of spent mastering a "proper language" such as C.

I don't know about IT but I know in my office having a European language to liaise with continental clients is a plus. Obviously there are jobs that require Irish but these are few and far between. Learning a European language opens up a lot more doors than Irish would.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know about IT but I know in my office having a European language to liaise with continental clients is a plus. Obviously there are jobs that require Irish but these are few and far between. Learning a European language opens up a lot more doors than Irish would.

If education is solely about economics and jobs (as oppose I don't know expanding someones horizon through exposure to knowledge and learning) as you seem to be implying than all languages other than English should be dropped from the curriculum. Our largest trading partners after all are the US followed by the UK.

Speaking English opens far more doors than any other European language, what use is French dealing with people in Eastern Europe, for example in Poland whose economy grew by over 40% between 2005 and 2013? (Let alone Sweden, Denmark or Netherlands). Heck we export about 50% more to Germany than we do to France let 4 times as many people do French in School than German.

Of course some people such as German President Joachim Gauck think that English should be made the official language of the EU.

How it works in IT industry is simple, if you want to (a) take advantage of Irish tax evasion methods, then (b) you hire native speakers from relevant countries pay for relocation costs, help with accommodation etc.

Result:

1. Happy customers dealing with Jack from Lyon, as oppose to Dortsider Jack with his "school French"
2. Happy employee's -- get to work in US multinational, good for the CV -- get to live in English speaking country good for their English.
3. Happy host country (that would be us) -- more income tax receipts, new and interesting colleagues, better cuisine on offer, improved gene-pool!

dubhthach wrote: »

If education is solely about economics and jobs (as oppose I don't know expanding someones horizon through exposure to knowledge and learning) as you seem to be implying than all languages other than English should be dropped from the curriculum. Our largest trading partners after all are the US followed by the UK.

Speaking English opens far more doors than any other European language, what use is French dealing with people in Eastern Europe, for example in Poland whose economy grew by over 40% between 2005 and 2013? (Let alone Sweden, Denmark or Netherlands). Heck we export about 50% more to Germany than we do to France let 4 times as many people do French in School than German.

Of course some people such as German President Joachim Gauck think that English should be made the official language of the EU.

How it works in IT industry is simple, if you want to (a) take advantage of Irish tax evasion methods, then (b) you hire native speakers from relevant countries pay for relocation costs, help with accommodation etc.

Result:

1. Happy customers dealing with Jack from Lyon, as oppose to Dortsider Jack with his "school French"
2. Happy employee's -- get to work in US multinational, good for the CV -- get to live in English speaking country good for their English.
3. Happy host country (that would be us) -- more income tax receipts, new and interesting colleagues, better cuisine on offer, improved gene-pool!

I didn't say education is solely about economics and jobs. Nor did I say speaking French is more valuable than speaking English. What I did say is that Irish will always be a minority language for as long as the career benefits of learning a major European language outweigh the benefits of learning Irish. Outside the public sector Irish is almost totally non existent.

You seem to be implying MNC's only look for native speaking people when loking for speakers of a foreign language. In my experience working for an MNC this is not the case, fluency and the ability to demonstrate fluency are required but being a native speaker from a foreign country is not.

Spending the time currently spent on French (or in minority cases on German) on improving english language literacy (not Macbeth or Paradise Lost -- both of which I enjoyed for cultural reasons) economically outweighs the case for money spent on teaching French/German in the school system.

27,000 students did French last year in the Leaving Cert, how many are fluent? Probably less than 1% (heck I'd go for 0.1%), the average secondary school student will only achieve about 400-500 hours of language contact with French (or German) during their schooling, it's generally believe that you need at least 5,000 hours of language contact for fluency. As the Irish system "teaches to the exam" I'd imagine even those 500 hours aren't that great.

What percentage of Irish Leaving Cert students over the last 15 years are working in a job that requires them to use the continental language they learnt in school (be it French, German or even smaller number of cases Spanish)? You're probably looking at less than 1% (or if we are been kind low single digits).

Ergo been forced to learn a continental language during secondary school (along with such things as requiring one for entering into non-humanities degrees in University) provides no benefits to the vast majority of Irish students from an economical or career point of view.
Sure it probably provides some cultural benefits, but I doubt that they are using Engrenages (Spiral), Maison Close or Les Particules élémentaires (Atomised) as a teaching aid in French class.

As for our tax-dodging friends in American Multinational sector, well sure they'll hire you if ye have fluency and there's no other candidate, however why would they hire an Irish candidate over a native speaker of French who is equally skilled in all the other requirements for a role that involves spending 6-8 hours a day dealing with French people in France? Unless of course that Irish person had just after coming back home from living several years in a Francophone country.

Take a stroll down Barrow street and check out the French (or German) departments managing sales/customer support/accounts of a certain large IT Multinational, how many of those staff members sat the Leaving Cert I wonder.

After all said MNC's often tout the fact that one of reason's they like Dublin is the fact that due to clustering effect going on here that they've no problem getting people to relocate from the continent. (that and we allow them route their profits nice and cleanly to the holding account in Bermuda)

catbear wrote: »

I've got to agree with that, i've heard that anti-foreigner reason enough times from parents to believe that these schools will the nuclei for future white trash slums.

Jaysuz ye Bearloirí need to get your story together, first we are told that people wanting to have their children educated through the medium of Irish are elitist, now we hear they are white thrash, living in slums. Sounds like a return to the narrative of a only peasants speak Irish.

It's funny though how some of recent research has shown that children of foreign nationals (or where at least one parent were born abroad) do better at Irish after the age of 7 than their Irish peer group in Bearloirí schools. No doubt as they don't have Bearloirí parents telling them "it's a waste of time, it's a dead language, only peasants/white thrash speak it, Peig!!!!".

Dr Bob wrote: »

I feel it only fair to point out that if you'd attended an English speaking school you would know that there's a difference between the verb 'thrash'(moving in a violent and unpredictable way)
..and the noun I think you meant 'trash'(rubbish /refuse/ a person of low morals).

Nawh was listening to Slayer's magnus opus "Reign in Blood" there, Thrash Metal on the brain can do that to you

I should point out I attended both Irish and English medium schools, after all there didn't exist a Gaelcholáiste in Galway City (or county) until circa 1994.

pwurple wrote: »

Well, along with a good education, I'm also concerned with not having a bunch of mini-racists become friends for my children...

If parents on the open day expressly tells me their reason for going to the gaelscoil is to avoid foreigners, it's a pretty good indicator of what kind of bull is going to emit from their offspring.

I would agree with you entirely. I would never send my kids to school with the children of racists. However, from my personal experience this is not a factor in why parents send their children to our local gaelscoil.

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