Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

K4t

dubhthach wrote: »

That's a serious allegation, if you are aware of criminal behaviour (discrimination based on skin colour of children) you should report it to the Gardaí, of course if there isn't any such behaviour you'd could be liable under libel laws for such an allegation.

dubhthach wrote: »

Breach of Equal Status Act, and perhaps "Incitement to Hatred" act, after all he's claiming racial discrimination. Of course he might just be committing libel which would leave him open to civil action.

The only incendiary behaviour is your own. Pathetic.

recedite

dubhthach wrote: »

Don't forget though if we are nationalising the school system then the likes of "Educate together" and An Foras Pátrúnachta would either have to be abolished or become private schools, after all it's all in the name of equality.

Not necessarily, they could both remain as types of national school.
Any national school worthy of the name should be equally open to all members of the public. Without religious, racial, ethnic or any other forms of discrimination. And not promote any particular religions over any others. Within those parameters there is room for some variation.

Educate Together already fits the bill, as do the multi-denominational gaelscoileanna. The "Catholic" gaelscoileanna would have to go multi-denominational, or else be privately funded.
The "inter-denominational gaelscoil" looks to be a bit of a farce. Is it a a catholic school that would in theory be willing to accept a protestant, if one applied?
How could they give "religious instruction" when the doctrines differ and oppose each other? By the segregation of the minority? Segregating children and making them feel "different" is contrary to good childcare practice.
The document says that...

3. The pupils will be prepared for the sacraments pertaining to them.

..as if these theoretical protestants will be prepared for sacraments during school hours. But "protestant" is not one single religion, and anyway, even the CoI schools do not prepare kids for sacraments, that is left to the relevant church to arrange outside of school hours.
I suspect that "inter-denominational" as an ethos choice is just a newer and more acceptable face of traditional religious indoctrination, dressed up in a more Politically Correct form. A Catholic school, but if "a protestant" does show up, they will accept them, and in theory they would then devise a special religious program for them.
I suppose voting for an inter-denominational patronage allows the parents to feel they are part of a progressive new Ireland, while still giving their kids the full monty in terms of a very traditional catholic education.

recedite

Humanists said recently they want to nationalise the primary schools, by going "back to the future" - of 1831
1831 refers to The Stanley Letter. Basically, it envisaged publicly funded multi-denominational schools, open and available to all.

recedite

Everybody is banging on about gay rights these days, but who will stick up for the traditional sport of gay-bashing?

Colaiste Eoin cancelled an anti-homophobic bullying talk because it wanted both points of view to be represented.
Then, following adverse publicity and a mini student revolt, decided that the talk was merely postponed, not cancelled.

One of the most worrying aspects of this is that a lot of the parents are actually teachers in other schools. If they are behind the "regressive" school policy of this school, what "cultural impact" are they having as staff members in other more forward looking and tolerant schools?

The saving grace is the pupils themselves, and how they have refused to accept the bigotry being passed down to them by the previous generation.

chughes

recedite wrote: »

Everybody is banging on about gay rights these days, but who will stick up for the traditional sport of gay-bashing?

Colaiste Eoin cancelled an anti-homophobic bullying talk because it wanted both points of view to be represented.
Then, following adverse publicity and a mini student revolt, decided that the talk was merely postponed, not cancelled.

One of the most worrying aspects of this is that a lot of the parents are actually teachers in other schools. If they are behind the "regressive" school policy of this school, what "cultural impact" are they having as staff members in other more forward looking and tolerant schools?

The saving grace is the pupils themselves, and how they have refused to accept the bigotry being passed down to them by the previous generation.

I know this is off topic for this thread but the above has me puzzled. There was going to be a talk on anti-homophobic bullying and it was postponed in order to get the other side of the issue. My puzzlement is, what exactly is the other side of the issue, will someone give a talk on pro homophobic bullying??

eire4

chughes wrote: »

I know this is off topic for this thread but the above has me puzzled. There was going to be a talk on anti-homophobic bullying and it was postponed in order to get the other side of the issue. My puzzlement is, why exactly is the other side of the issue, will someone give a talk on pro homophobic bullying??

I was wondering just the same thing myself. Bizzare indeed.

recedite

chughes wrote: »

I know this is off topic for this thread but...

Its hardly "off topic" if the very first line of the thread is...

An tAthair MacSuibhne wrote: »

Have you ever wondered what kind of impact Gaelscoils are having on Irish culture?

And this school is one of the biggest and most influential in the country, outside of the actual Gaeltacht.

Stroke Politics

I wonder whose dear daughter or dear son goes to that school, and what think tanks they might be supportive of. Might be worried that there might be an outbreak of other people being tolerated as openly and accepted as gay....

groovyg

Colaiste Eoin seem to want to keep digging that hole and making it bigger for themselves !
So now the story is that the parents objected, sounds like they need the workshop more than the kids.

Gaelgangnuis

katydid wrote: »

I have enough friends, thanks :-)

I use German every day, since I'm married to a German, and I use French for communicating with friends, reading news, watching tv, debating on the internet... And I use it for everyday tasks when I go to France. The point is that other languages have a use beyond the academic or the artificially contrived scenarios, even if one initially learns them in an academic setting. Irish doesn't, unfortunately.

Perhaps not for you, but it does for plenty of people. I use Irish for communicating with friends, reading news, watching tv, debating on the Internet, in my relationship with my girlfriend etc. You seem to be making a generalization based on your own personal experience, please note that your particular experience is not the only one.

Gaelgangnuis

recedite wrote: »

Everybody is banging on about gay rights these days, but who will stick up for the traditional sport of gay-bashing?

Colaiste Eoin cancelled an anti-homophobic bullying talk because it wanted both points of view to be represented.
Then, following adverse publicity and a mini student revolt, decided that the talk was merely postponed, not cancelled.

One of the most worrying aspects of this is that a lot of the parents are actually teachers in other schools. If they are behind the "regressive" school policy of this school, what "cultural impact" are they having as staff members in other more forward looking and tolerant schools?

The saving grace is the pupils themselves, and how they have refused to accept the bigotry being passed down to them by the previous generation.

The story turns out to be quite different than was first reported in the English Language Media.

The issue seems to be that a mistake resulted in some parents being informed of the workshop only a few days beforehand (as opposed to two weeks which is the normal school practice). Some parents raised concerns and the school decided to postpone the workshop so that these could be discussed with the parents (hearing both sides) rather than ignoring the parents and going ahead with the workshop regardless.

There was no revolt by students and when the wearing of an LGBT symbol to school was reported as being an intended 'revolt' by an over eager media, the students decided not to go ahead with it, as that was not their intent. Indeed the principle later got a standing ovation from his students for his handling of the situation in the face of all the pressure heaped on him.

The school and its management have a good track record in the promotion of anti-bulling and equality and the group in question had run other workshops in the school previously. This is an issue of a school deciding not to ignore the concerns of some parents, which was blown out of any kind of reasonable proportion by a media that seems to have been too ready to believe the worst of a long established Irish medium school.


So, no gay bashing, no student revolt, no regressive school policy.

catbear

If he replied to the media in Irish there'd be no story!

Gaelgangnuis

catbear wrote: »

If he replied to the media in Irish there'd be no story!

He did, full article on tuairisc.ie
'Príomhoide Choláiste Eoin ‘an-churtha amach’ ag tuairisc mhíchruinn faoin scoil.'

katydid

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

He did, full article on tuairisc.ie
'Príomhoide Choláiste Eoin ‘an-churtha amach’ ag tuairisc mhíchruinn faoin scoil.'

Didn't exactly make "It Says In The Papers"...

recedite

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

There was no revolt by students and when the wearing of an LGBT symbol to school was reported as being an intended 'revolt' by an over eager media, the students decided not to go ahead with it

It was referred to as a "protest" in the media linked to on this thread. Which would be a fair description, if they were wearing LGBT badges and colours that are not part of the official school uniform.
I'll take your word for it that the protest was called off. I've checked your link, but sadly Google translate leaves me none the wiser....

He said that some of the parents stated that the workshop was concerned about "Catholic ethos" of the school...
...Media stories yesterday also organize Johns College students protest today with the news of the workshop, but now it is reported that this occurred.

:pac:


Ah well, at least I learned a new word that wasn't taught back when I was at school; homafóbach.

dubhthach

katydid wrote: »

Didn't exactly make "It Says In The Papers"...

Depends on what radio station you listen to at 8am in the morning

katydid

dubhthach wrote: »

Depends on what radio station you listen to at 8am in the morning

Well, not too many listen to RnG, let's face it...

dubhthach

katydid wrote: »

Well, not too many listen to RnG, let's face it...

And if a tree falls in a forest and Katy didn't see it fall, did it really fall?

But sure given that it's a "local radio station" for the Gaeltacht (the hint is in the name it isn't "Raidió na Gaeilge" after all), are we surprised that it isn't up there competing with Bearloirí stations such as Newtalk? Of course it makes a change having a public service station that doesn't demean itself with commercials alá the rest of RTÉ.

katydid

dubhthach wrote: »

And if a tree falls in a forest and Katy didn't see it fall, did it really fall?

But sure given that it's a "local radio station" for the Gaeltacht (the hint is in the name it isn't "Raidió na Gaeilge" after all), are we surprised that it isn't up there competing with Bearloirí stations such as Newtalk? Of course it makes a change having a public service station that doesn't demean itself with commercials alá the rest of RTÉ.

It only fell for the handful of people who saw it fall

I'm not surprised that few people listen to it. Just pointing out that it's got a limited listenership. (Mind you, if the government were really concerned about getting people to use Irish, it would be an Irish language service for everyone, not just those living in the Gaeltacht...)

dubhthach

katydid wrote: »

It only fell for the handful of people who saw it fall

I'm not surprised that few people listen to it. Just pointing out that it's got a limited listenership. (Mind you, if the government were really concerned about getting people to use Irish, it would be an Irish language service for everyone, not just those living in the Gaeltacht...)

Given that it was created out of result of the Gaeltacht civil rights movement and in response to pirate radio stations setup in the Gaeltacht they had their hands forced on the issue. As a result it was the first local radio station setup in this state. It's remit doesn't include reaching out to Bearloirí in the Galltacht.

Of course there are alternatives such as Radió na Life if you live in Dublin which is a fully independent radio station.

MayoAreMagic

Maybe Im in the minority, but I'd be far more concerned with my children spending time with maths than learning irish, because maths is a universal language. If learning a second language is good for a child, then get them learning German, Spanish or French. The bottom line is this, those skills will set them up for life in a huge range of areas, far more-so than someone who spends that time learning irish. Give them a background in irish, but don't sacrifice those career building blocks for the sake of it.

At the end of the day, the only position created from having irish, is teaching other people irish, and those people will be, in the main other irish people. There will never be fortunes made in that, there will never be new inventions to be engineered or diseases cured. There will be little use for creativity or ingenuity using irish alone.

I have worked with people who grew up in irish speaking areas. The three things they had in common were this, they all spoke good irish, none of them used it except the odd weekend they went home, and they all said they wished they had spent more time with things they could actually use instead.

katydid

dubhthach wrote: »

Given that it was created out of result of the Gaeltacht civil rights movement and in response to pirate radio stations setup in the Gaeltacht they had their hands forced on the issue. As a result it was the first local radio station setup in this state. It's remit doesn't include reaching out to Bearloirí in the Galltacht.

Of course there are alternatives such as Radió na Life if you live in Dublin which is a fully independent radio station.

My point is that maybe it SHOULD reach out beyond the Gaeltacht. There is no national Irish language radio station, with discussion of issues of concern to all.

No everyone outside the Gaeltacht lives in Dublin.

MRnotlob606

There are many economic benefits of bilingualism.

katydid

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

There are many economic benefits of bilingualism.

There are indeed. But there is something to be said for developing bilingualism in a language that is of practical use in the world.

Having said that, no reason why someone can't learn more than two languages...

catbear

The teaching of Irish is not education, it has since the foundation of the state been a political project.
It took mass immigration for the recent growth of Irish schools.
This mass movent is at its peak as parents now prioritise educational opportunities that maximise their children's employment prospects.
Plenty of graduates have recently emigrated with perfect Irish but its not their Irish that pays their way.

Gaelgangnuis

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Maybe Im in the minority, but I'd be far more concerned with my children spending time with maths than learning irish, because maths is a universal language. If learning a second language is good for a child, then get them learning German, Spanish or French. The bottom line is this, those skills will set them up for life in a huge range of areas, far more-so than someone who spends that time learning irish. Give them a background in irish, but don't sacrifice those career building blocks for the sake of it.

At the end of the day, the only position created from having irish, is teaching other people irish, and those people will be, in the main other irish people. There will never be fortunes made in that, there will never be new inventions to be engineered or diseases cured. There will be little use for creativity or ingenuity using irish alone.

I have worked with people who grew up in irish speaking areas. The three things they had in common were this, they all spoke good irish, none of them used it except the odd weekend they went home, and they all said they wished they had spent more time with things they could actually use instead.

I'm not aware of Maths etc being 'sacrificed' in Gaelscoils, in fact what evidence there is points to Irish medium schools doing as well if not better in these areas than English medium schools.

There are plenty of jobs in which Irish is used besides teaching the language, there is a vibrant tele-visual industry in Irish both here and in NI these days for example.

As for 'there will never be new inventions to be engineered or diseases cured. There will be little use for creativity or ingenuity using irish', you should have seen some of the wonderful projects entered in the BT Young Scientist by Gaeltacht and Irish Medium schools, done through Irish.

Gaelgangnuis

As for the question of the thread itself, its hard to tell yet, the movement is still in its infancy.

Pupils who started out in Gaelscoileanna this year are a significantly bigger group than the cohort who have come out the other side of Irish medium education this year. When those who left this year started in Irish medium education entered the system, the number of pupils in Gaelscoileanna was only just over half what it has since grown to. The cohort who were leaving back when they were starting was a much smaller group again.

While the Gaelscoil movement has grown to represent a not insignificant sector of education, it has not yet had time to filter up in the age profile to any significant degree.
Around 6% of school goers are now Gaelscoil students, but the percentage gets smaller as you go up in each age bracket, those now in their twenties now have a smaller percentage of former Gaelscoil students in their ranks, those in their forties now would include less than 1 percent of former Gaelscoil pupils.

The vast majority of Gaelscoil entrants are still first generation, former Gaelscoil pupils sending their own children to a Gaelscoil is only starting to become a thing.
That said, while small, the impact can be seen, the younger generations, the generations that include more Gaelscoil pupils/former pupils tend to be more favorable and competent in the Irish language.
Universities are starting to see a sizable former Gaelscoil population moving onto third level and at the same time Irish Language societies in universities have undergone an explosion over the last few years, fueled largely by an influx of fluent Irish speaking former Gaelscoil pupils.

Earlier in the thread there was criticism based on the fact that many current and former gaelscoil pupils don't use Irish outside of/after leaving school, this is undeniably true. But it is also true that Gaelscoil pupils/former pupils ability in Irish is much higher higher than the general population and their likely hood to speak Irish beyond school is also much higher than the general population.

As this cohort of the population continues to grow over coming years, it can only mean greater competence in and use of the Irish language in the population as a whole.

katydid

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

A
As this cohort of the population continues to grow over coming years, it can only mean greater competence in and use of the Irish language in the population as a whole.

Not necessarily. Unless it is used in daily life, there is no guarantee of a correlation between the two. It MAY be that increased competence amongst an increase number of people, but given that business and social intercourse in Ireland is carried on outside the Gaeltacht 99% in English, there's a long way to go

Gaelgangnuis

katydid wrote: »

Not necessarily. Unless it is used in daily life, there is no guarantee of a correlation between the two. It MAY be that increased competence amongst an increase number of people, but given that business and social intercourse in Ireland is carried on outside the Gaeltacht 99% in English, there's a long way to go

Sorry, but made up % figures prove nothing.

You can choose to believe that former Gaelscoil pupils on average are no more likely to use Irish in daily life than the population as a whole, personally I know that they do, not in all individual cases of course, but on average its clear that they do.

katydid

Gaelgangnuis wrote: »

Sorry, but made up % figures prove nothing.

You can choose to believe that former Gaelscoil pupils on average are no more likely to use Irish in daily life than the population as a whole, personally I know that they do, not in all individual cases of course, but on average its clear that they do.

It's not made up figures. I was going to say 100%, but I thought I'd be fair. There are the cupla focail at the beginning of the odd speeches. Other than that, where is Irish used in our everyday lives in Ireland outside of the Gaeltacht?

I didn't say that former Gaelscoil pupils are no more likely to use Irish in daily life - I'm sure they would be happy to, were there occasions. But there are not.