Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

eire4

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well it isn't speculation it is a proven mathematical fact.
As for culling subjects, I never suggested that at all. Simply make them elective and in doing so, prioritise things like maths, science, etc, i.e. subjects that act as cornerstones for a huge range of careers and thus give people more opportunities. I mean maths is used by everyone from a labourer to a computer scientist. Which of those need irish too? Surely that is only logical? So if you want to go into irish you can elect to do that. The thing is only a fraction of people want to go into irish, so why do they all have to spend time learning it every day?




Exactly, so why force so much irish onto them? Maybe they would rather German...

Still not seeing anything from you that shows going to a Gaelscoil hurts a kid academically other then your own statements that this is a "fact".
By that logic why force any subject on anybody. You can make an argument we all need some basic Math skills but no need for Algebra, Theorems etc. By your logic a waste of time we could better use somewhere else. We all need basic reading and writting skills but no need for Poetry, literature etc in English class. In short other then some basic Math and English skills we all need everything should be elective. Thus going by your logic almost everything should be elective as other then basic Maths and English everything else is only really relevant career wise to specific careers.


But reality is many kids don't have a fixed view on what they want their career to be by their junior cert and it is important to give kids a good all round education which for me should include Irish.

MayoAreMagic

eire4 wrote: »

Still not seeing anything from you that shows going to a Gaelscoil hurts a kid academically other then your own statements that this is a "fact".
By that logic why force any subject on anybody. You can make an argument we all need some basic Math skills but no need for Algebra, Theorems etc. By your logic a waste of time we could better use somewhere else. We all need basic reading and writting skills but no need for Poetry, literature etc in English class. In short other then some basic Math and English skills we all need everything should be elective. Thus going by your logic almost everything should be elective as other then basic Maths and English everything else is only really relevant career wise to specific careers.


But reality is many kids don't have a fixed view on what they want their career to be by their junior cert and it is important to give kids a good all round education which for me should include Irish.

I have provided sound logic that shows that learning a subject via a totally unrelated medium that you also have to learn will slow down the process of learning the subject, and in a situation where time is a factor, your overall learning possibility will be less because of that. That has been completely proven. Can you offer some proof that this isn't the case?

So are you saying a well rounded education needs to involve irish on the same level as English, science and maths?

eire4

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I have provided sound logic that shows that learning a subject via a totally unrelated medium that you also have to learn will slow down the process of learning the subject, and in a situation where time is a factor, your overall learning possibility will be less because of that. That has been completely proven. Can you offer some proof that this isn't the case?

So are you saying a well rounded education needs to involve irish on the same level as English, science and maths?

There are many things that can sound logical as also there are many things that look to be correlated but are in fact not. Your the one who keeps making the same point without ever offering any evidence that kids going to a Gaelscoil suffer academically. My intital response was one of interest I did not say no what your saying is false nor did I agree with it.


Well this thread is about kids going to Gaelscoileanna so in that instance clearly Irish is considered a key central compenent of the educational experience.

kingchess

Young children learn Irish easily enough-lets face it,they only learned English a year or three before starting Irish in Gaelscoil,they are like little sponges at that age. Mayoaremagic-do you think the human brain can only hold so much information,that if you put one subject in that it will squeeze out another subject? My own wife came to Ireland from East Germany with-out one word of English and sat the leaving cert one and a half years later,learning EVERYTHING through a new medium(English) did not seem to slow her down.

Grudaire

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I have provided sound logic that shows that learning a subject via a totally unrelated medium that you also have to learn will slow down the process of learning the subject, and in a situation where time is a factor, your overall learning possibility will be less because of that. That has been completely proven. Can you offer some proof that this isn't the case?

So are you saying a well rounded education needs to involve irish on the same level as English, science and maths?

Sound logical arguments are enough to give credentials worthy of Eddie Hobbs, you'd make a fantastic economist.
Come back to reality and try back up your examples in the real world

Grudaire

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But a minute ago you were crediting the Gaelscoils with performing just as well via irish, now you are accepting that there are in fact other factors at play - so obviously there could in fact be a big difference between learning science directly, and having to learn irish first, then science, and these factors have been disguising this...

This has been my point all along. You cant claim that learning via irish is just as effective because of the results (which is what you have been doing) - there are too many other factors at play. If those are the findings then really and truly we need to improve our direct learning system.

As regards the assumption of all things being equal, you need to do this to remove variables and find what is best practice. When you remove the variables, learning maths by learning irish first isn't as effective as just learning maths. This is undeniable.

The only thing that is undeniable is your argument is based on totally flawed logic.
You have a theory that isn't borne out by evidence, so the evidence must be wrong?

You also are treating the steps as follows:
1 learn English,
2 learn Irish,
3 learn Maths

In reality all three happen in parallel, Maths has its own language which must be learned no matter what language you start with..

catbear

Grudaire wrote: »

Sound logical arguments are enough to give credentials worthy of Eddie Hobbs, you'd make a fantastic economist.
Come back to reality and try back up your examples in the real world

If sound logical arguments aren't enough then what justifies decades of compulsory Irish?

Grudaire

catbear wrote: »

If sound logical arguments aren't enough then what justifies decades of compulsory Irish?

Arguments based on reality, rather than made-up myths about Gaelscoils.

BTW this thread isn't really about voluntary Irish!?!

dubhthach

catbear wrote: »

If sound logical arguments aren't enough then what justifies decades of compulsory Irish?

Given that Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáiste is about parental choice (eg. the choice of sending children to school through medium of education) the actions/inactions of politico's/mandarins aren't relevant, after all the Dept of Education spent a couple years there recently refusing to recognise new Gaelscoileanna -- no doubt as they represent a threat to established order. (Omg! Parents actually want to take an interest in their child's education, heresy! )

Of course JJ Lee writing back in 1989 states the following

Policy for about two decades has clearly been to let the language die by stealth. For once, the policy-makers are achieving success, although there has been a small but nonetheless striking efflorescence of voluntary education effort in some middle-class urban circles in the past decade.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=94c7MQTBTFwC&lpg=PP1&dq=ireland%201912-1985&pg=PA673#v=onepage&q&f=false

It's quite obvious that the ruling class in this country see the language as something to give them names for quango's (horendous Ervia comes to mind) and perhaps add a bit ceremony to events. Thence the horror expressed by Dept. of Finance to proposal to offer free education (secondary) to Gaeltacht residents in the late 1920's

The commission actually recommended free secondary school education in the Gaeltacht! The government rejected this heretical suggestion on the disingenuous grounds that parents were too poor to avail of free secondary education because they had to send their children out to work at the age of twelve! Therefore free secondary education 'would not produce results commensurate with the cost'.

Gaelgangnuis

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I have provided sound logic that shows that learning a subject via a totally unrelated medium that you also have to learn will slow down the process of learning the subject, and in a situation where time is a factor, your overall learning possibility will be less because of that. That has been completely proven. Can you offer some proof that this isn't the case?

You say it has been 'completely proven' yet all you have to offer in support of this seems to be, because you say so.

Second language immersion education (English speakers learning through Irish in the case of Gaelscoils) is a feature of education systems in many countries. Off the top of my head, I know that it is in use here, in Wales, in Scotland, in Canada, in Spain, and there are plenty of other education systems in which it is in use. It has also been the subject of research and that research time and again has not shown any disadvantage to pupils in these schools from learning through the medium of a second language.

You can choose to accept that or not, but please don't masquerade your opinion as 'completely proven' fact when the actual research on the subject contradicts you.