What are the pros and cons of multiracial multicultural society?

woodoo

Nodin wrote: »

...and if they don't get the grades because of a few hundred years of oppression that only offically really came to an end in the 1960's...? Because it appears to me you want to have a good old whinge about the system, but aren't too eager to consider why it exists. Or that exists in the workplace for more than issues of "race"......

I notice you didn't answer my question.

Some of the students benefiting from affirmative action to get into university grew up with affirmative action. They have had as fair a chance as the white person to reach the required grades.

crockholm

Nodin wrote: »

...and if they don't get the grades because of a few hundred years of oppression that only offically really came to an end in the 1960's...? Because it appears to me you want to have a good old whinge about the system, but aren't too eager to consider why it exists. Or that exists in the workplace for more than issues of "race"......

The Chinese/Japanese/ Koreans had it rough in the states for a long time,but they constantly get better SAT scores than the European students, they don't need the help.If your house was burning down,with you inside,would you want the best fireman,or a minority fireman to be your lifeline?Black people have suffered greatly in their history,but this does not help foster better relationships.

suicide_circus

10 or so years ago....how much did a flight from lagos to dublin cost...and what was the average wage in nigeria? Im assuming that the average impoverished nigerian would not have been able to afford this expense.

Gatling

suicide_circus wrote: »

10 or so years ago....how much did a flight from lagos to dublin cost...and what was the average wage in nigeria? Im assuming that the average impoverished nigerian would not have been able to afford this expense.

26,000 + from 2006 onwards did

Arcsin

Nodin wrote: »

...and if they don't get the grades because of a few hundred years of oppression that only offically really came to an end in the 1960's...? Because it appears to me you want to have a good old whinge about the system, but aren't too eager to consider why it exists. Or that exists in the workplace for more than issues of "race"......

How do you know if they didn't get the grades because of a history of oppression? How do you differentiate that from a black student who just didn't bother studying?

Is it a case of if you are white and don't pass the exams it's your own fault but if you are black and don't pass the exams it's still the white guy's fault?

SeanW

Arcsin wrote: »

Is it a case of if you are white and don't pass the exams it's your own fault but if you are black and don't pass the exams it's still the white guy's fault?

That would be in line with the views of the Left.

Nodin

woodoo wrote: »

I notice you didn't answer my question.

Some of the students benefiting from affirmative action to get into university grew up with affirmative action. They have had as fair a chance as the white person to reach the required grades.

...well they probably haven't, which is why they brought it in.

Does it keep you awake at night, worrying about it?

Nodin

suicide_circus wrote: »

10 or so years ago....how much did a flight from lagos to dublin cost...and what was the average wage in nigeria? Im assuming that the average impoverished nigerian would not have been able to afford this expense.

.....How did we get to "Nigerians" all of a sudden?

Spanish Harlem

Affirmative action is indefensible. Positive discrimination is still discrimination! I've always said that the Left are the biggest racists of all. The idea that blacks need a helping hand from whitey because they can't get by on their own smacks of white supremacy. Same with the IPSC whingers. The poor helpless creatures are just waiting for a white knight (read:gullible leftie sucker) to come to the rescue...with buckets full of cash of course.

Herb Powell

SeanW wrote: »

It depends on what you mean by "fairly." You'd need to explain that.

Then please explain to me why Japan has a low crime rate.

And BTW some crimes do not transcend culture - they are exclusive to inferior cultures. Honour killings, Female Genital Mutilation etc are specific to lower cultures. Take for example the Turkish community in Berlin where honour killing is a respected part of life.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-death-of-a-muslim-woman-the-whore-lived-like-a-german-a-344374.html

But what was even more telling was the response from the community.Or the rise in bullying of schoolgirls that don't cover up:

Now, remember this is in Germany. What a multicultural paradise. :rolleyes:

Now, I know that you and Nodin don't have a problem with any of this because you've as much as said so, repeatedly.

But hey, maybe it's just my:
:rolleyes:
I mean, despite the fact that I'm an Irish citizen and resident, who am I to judge these barbarians with (deficient according to the cultural-relativist-Left) "Irish-centric perspective" :rolleyes:

Japan is an anomaly. It is one east Asian country, and one of the most wealthy at that.

I am not excusing honour killings. I think they are despicable. Theocracies are bull****, and I'm sure you know how our own country was affected by the stranglehold of the Church. However, honour killings are not tolerated in western societies. How many people actually advocate for that ****, besides the perpetrators? Is it really excused? Am I missing something?

Germany is also a strange case. These Turkish migrants were invited over in the 50's, but really weren't given proper oppurtunities to integrate. The understanding was that they would fecck off back to Turkey after they were finished their term working. But many decided to stay because they liked the standard of living offered in Germany. The dissonnance between them and the native Germans was never dealt with at the time. As far as the Germans were concerned, they weren't really there to stay, so they weren't really welcomed. Which is fair enough, if your understanding is that they're not going to be sticking around for more than a few years. However, if you're going to have people stay in your country permenantly, you really need to make adequate provisions (language classes, etc. German language knowledge was NOT required for the Turkish guest workers), and Germany failed in that regard. Attempts to remedy this have been made more recently, but it really seems like only the younger generations have the hope of making the changes required now, so it will take time.

A pain in the hole for the Germans, but you reap what you sow.

jazz101

Spanish Harlem wrote: »

Affirmative action is indefensible. Positive discrimination is still discrimination! I've always said that the Left are the biggest racists of all. The idea that blacks need a helping hand from whitey because they can't get by on their own smacks of white supremacy. Same with the IPSC whingers. The poor helpless creatures are just waiting for a white knight (read:gullible leftie sucker) to come to the rescue...with buckets full of cash of course.

Affirmative action was a necessary practice in America, the societal segregation was simply too vast for the institution of civil rights for blacks being enough to bring black communities up to speed. Sorry but when the highest black populations are largely concentrated in the lowest HDI states, you cannot go whinging about their failure to start multinationals en masse. There's a scarcity of employment opportunities in the largest regions of black population in the USA, as they were segregated out to these regions long ago.

It is necessary and the stigma against it largely comes from "victims" who really were not victims of it at all. For example, ten similarly qualified men go for a position in a company. 1 black, 9 white. In accordance with affirmative action, the employer narrows his selection down to the one black person and the best white candidate. From there, he chooses the black candidate by virtue of his qualities. One man suffers from affirmative action, yet nine go away feeling aggrieved.

Pug160

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

So we've only emigrated to Scotland, Wales, England and Australia?

As I said, it makes me laugh. Irish people in all four corners of the world (we haven't just immigrated to Britain and Australia) and here we have the usual suspects spouting the usual bile about the immigration to our country.

Many Australians are not happy with the carry-on of the Irish over there so because we're white, doesn't mean we've adapted and respected the laws of the land in all cases.

Half of my family living in the States, most went over illegally to join the huuuuge amounts of Irish living there right now without papers "taking jobs from locals in a struggling economy".


Irish in Korea, Japan, Canada, South America, Europe....everywhere you go you find us.


Of ALL the countries in the world to complain when millions of us have been accepted worldwide even when our own behaviour has been questionable. It's rich beyond belief.


Can you imagine if all of us (I live in Spain) decided to come home??? Good god!!

There's certainly been a lot of Irish movement - no doubt about that. But generally speaking, Irish people seem to assimilate well regardless of where they go. Muslims and people from impoverished and much more primitive countries are more likely to have bigger ideological differences and create ghettos, and that ultimately changes cities and large towns and creates white flight. I do not want my city to be like London in 20 years. I respect London in a lot of ways but I think it's not a good example of what some liberals consider their ultimate goal. I make no apologies for not wanting that.

Spanish Harlem

jazz101 wrote: »

Affirmative action was a necessary practice in America, the societal segregation was simply too vast for the institution of civil rights for blacks being enough to bring black communities up to speed.

...in your humble opinion. Please stop trying to pass this off as objective fact.

Sorry but when the highest black populations are largely concentrated in the lowest HDI states, you cannot go whinging about their failure to start multinationals en masse. There's a scarcity of employment opportunities in the largest regions of black population in the USA, as they were segregated out to these regions long ago.

There is free movement of people in the USA. Nobody is forcing you to stay on the cotton plantation in Georgia. On the contrary, when blacks move into a neighbourhood, they generally turn it into a ghetto full of drugs, prostitutes and crime. Look what happened to Detroit...once the economic powerhouse of the America, it's now one big ghetto.

It is necessary and the stigma against it largely comes from "victims" who really were not victims of it at all. For example, ten similarly qualified men go for a position in a company. 1 black, 9 white. In accordance with affirmative action, the employer narrows his selection down to the one black person and the best white candidate. From there, he chooses the black candidate by virtue of his qualities. One man suffers from affirmative action, yet nine go away feeling aggrieved.

Your little invented scenario means nothing. The fact is, the black got the job ahead of the white simply because a racist law says that blacks need extra help. They're not as capable as the superior whites. Such racist trash.

mod: banned.

jazz101

...in your humble opinion. Please stop trying to pass this off as objective fact.

This is objective fact. Blacks were forced to stay in this region for the dregs of employment available to them. They had roots in the southern states of the USA, and could not afford to leave nor when they did leave were opportunities available to them.

There is free movement of people in the USA. Nobody is forcing you to stay on the cotton plantation in Georgia. On the contrary, when blacks move into a neighbourhood, they generally turn it into a ghetto full of drugs, prostitutes and crime. Look what happened to Detroit...once the economic powerhouse of the America, it's now one big ghetto.

For whatever reason you seem determined to suggest that it's black nature to destroy a city maliciously. Detroit's population has declined by over a million people in the last 60 years. A pretty strong correlation with population-economic status rather than black population wouldn't you agree?

Your little invented scenario means nothing. The fact is, the black got the job ahead of the white simply because a racist law says that blacks need extra help. They're not as capable as the superior whites. Such racist trash.

That "little invented scenario" was a Nobel Prize winning theory from Amartya Sen in 1998 on welfare economics.

Legs.Eleven

Pug160 wrote: »

There's certainly been a lot of Irish movement - no doubt about that. But generally speaking, Irish people seem to assimilate well regardless of where they go. Muslims and people from impoverished and much more primitive countries are more likely to have bigger ideological differences and create ghettos, and that ultimately changes cities and large towns and creates white flight. I do not want my city to be like London in 20 years. I respect London in a lot of ways but I think it's not a good example of what some liberals consider their ultimate goal. I make no apologies for not wanting that.

I've lived in two areas with large Muslim populations in my life - East London and the area of Madrid I live in now (although this area much less so) with no problems at all. As far as I can see here and saw in London, all of us lived happily along side each other with no problems. The muslims in my area of London were very courteous and polite and any real trouble caused in that area wasn't caused by them. They went about their business and kept to themselves. Gangs of teenage Muslim young fellas used to hang around the streets outside my flat and whenever I walked past them, all I ever heard was, "Let the lady through". Nothing but respect unlike young fellas in the areas I lived in Dublin. The people who worked in shops were always very kind to me as were my neighbours, landlords and housemates. I genuinely couldn't complain and same goes for where I live now.

East London has seen a lot of change over the years from Irish to Jewish and now Bangledeshis. It was traditionally an area of immigrants and has seen a lot of movement. A lot of hatred was directed towards the Irish in the 60s, most of it unjustified. I genuinely believe this distrust of Muslim populations is deeply unfair as my experiences, as someone who's lived among them, has been totally positive.

Edit: The vast majority people just want to get on with their lives, make ends meet and raise their families regardless of their race, colour or nationality.

dr.bollocko

Spanish Harlem banned.

Nodin

Pug160 wrote: »

There's certainly been a lot of Irish movement - no doubt about that. But generally speaking, Irish people seem to assimilate
well regardless of where they go. ........

That must be why they threw this kind of thing at us......
http://www.victoriana.com/Irish/mail7.jpg

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag120/fenwaykos/MollyMaguireCartoon.jpg

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/ellis-island/cartoon-1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/TheUsualIrishWayofDoingThings.jpg/200px-TheUsualIrishWayofDoingThings.jpg

http://www.irishcomicnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/011211_thomas_nast_cartoon.jpg

We seem to have been portrayed as some bunch of thugs with a strange religion and a penchant for terrorism....fancy that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing_Movement

Grand Moff Tarkin

It was a cert that the ban hammer would fall in this thread.

Death and Taxes

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

It was a cert that the ban hammer would fall in this thread.

Which is why some of us have decided to stay away from these threads.

suicide_circus

Nodin wrote: »

.....How did we get to "Nigerians" all of a sudden?

not picking on nigerians particularly but just musing that those who made it here to claim asylum probably were not the worlds most needy candidates, enter pamela stage left.
as for immigration in general, it is necessary and unstoppable. i am the son of an immigrant. my partner is an immigrant so immigration has been great for me

in terms of culture clash, i certainly think the onus is on the incoming party to adapt to the existing society rather than the reverse.

pabloh999

Nodin wrote: »

Thats nice. You see no need to redress historic imbalance and bias then?

Double standard?
That is called discrimination, but if a minority benefits then its ok?

Nodin

pabloh999 wrote: »

Double standard?
That is called discrimination, but if a minority benefits then its ok?

Its not a "double standard". The vast majority don't even know how the system works. Nor do they give out where it benefits war veterans, women etc.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Its not a "double standard". The vast majority don't even know how the system works. Nor do they give out where it benefits war veterans, women etc.

Excuse me? There are many people women included who are opposed to implimenting quotas for women in the dail, just as an example. Just because you live and associate with people with the same mindset doesn't mean it's the default behaviour in the country. The left always make that mistake.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Excuse me? There are many people women included who are opposed to implimenting quotas for women in the dail, just as an example. Just because you live and associate with people with the same mindset doesn't mean it's the default behaviour in the country. The left always make that mistake.

We don't have any affirmative action policies in the south, afaik.

SeanW

Nodin wrote: »

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing_Movement

As to the Know Nothings, well, Ireland since independence proves that a society run by papists is a hellhole, so their fears in that sense could not be described as entirely unjustified, remember they consisted of both Protestants and Jews (the latter of whom had been persecuted mercilessly by the Catholic church over the centuries).

Fortunately, the United States developed into an advanced (relatively) secular society, certainly far more so than Ireland was in for example the mid-20th century. Hindsight is wonderful isnt it?

Herb Powell wrote: »

Japan is an anomaly. It is one east Asian country, and one of the most wealthy at that.

Thank you for making my point so clearly. Japan is a safe country for its people because of its culture, which is, as you correctly point out, anomolous.

I am not excusing honour killings. I think they are despicable.

But isn't that just your inadequate "Irish centric perspective" speaking through? It's part and parcel of their culture. Along with the hijabs, burkas etc.

How many people actually advocate for that ****, besides the perpetrators?

The Turkish community in Germany for one.

Is it really excused? Am I missing something?

BINGO. They're proud of it. It's an integral part of their culture.

Germany is also a strange case ... but you reap what you sow.

So it's the Germans fault? Why am I not surprised? :rolleyes:
If I wanted to move to Germany I would make it my business to fit into their society, not expect the other way around. Your post raises serious questions about why people stayed in a country they so clearly hate and despise, raising children in that country to be disloyal to it. Or more to the point, why the Germans didn't kick their stone age asses back to the hellhole they came from. Which was partly answered in the article:

For decades, German legislators lived under the shadow of the country's Third Reich past and the fear of appearing racist if it singled out a particular community or religion for scrutiny or special treatment. "People were afraid they would be called Nazis if they dared to bring up issues of human rights in the Turkish community," said Serap Cileli, a Turkish author and filmmaker who at 15 was forced into an arranged marriage.

Legs.Eleven wrote:

I've lived in two areas with large Muslim populations in my life - East London and the area of Madrid I live in now (although this area much less so) with no problems at all. As far as I can see here and saw in London, all of us lived happily along side each other with no problems.

Not all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs

But don't worry, I'm sure Nodin will be along to tell you no need for concern because they don't have nuclear aircraft carriers and ICBMs.

Thats nice. You see no need to redress historic imbalance and bias then?

This is why I asked you to define "fair" because a Leftists idea of fair is to have reverse discrimination.

For everyone else, fair could be defined as no discrimination of any kind.

wicklowstevo

we could do with some handsomeness genetics as a nation long as we retain our identity. it would be a shame if irishness was swamped in multiculturalism

pabloh999

Plenty of cons in multicultural Sweden
It is now the rape capital of Europe

Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe

According to a new study from the Crime Prevention Council, Brå, it is four
times more likely that a known rapist is born abroad, compared to persons born
in Sweden. Resident aliens from Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominate the
group of rape suspects. According to these statistics, almost half of all
perpetrators are immigrants.

Or even Brussels , capital of Europe with its 25% muslim population women cant walk down certain streets without being harrased by Muslim men.

Con.

old hippy

wicklowstevo wrote: »

we could do with some handsomeness genetics as a nation long as we retain our identity. it would be a shame if irishness was swamped in multiculturalism

Ireland would have to have a poor cultural identity if it was lost that easily. You're not being invaded or oppressed - simply people are coming in to add to the culture. Not subtract.

Legs.Eleven

SeanW wrote: »

Not all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs

But don't worry, I'm sure Nodin will be along to tell you no need for concern because they don't have nuclear aircraft carriers and ICBMs.

Oh I'm sorry...did I say all?

I'll reiterate my point once again as you didn't seem to grasp it the first time: the vast majority of Muslims in my area went about the business peacefully and were very respectful to me, to my friends (mostly white) and to each other. The Muslims in my current area are very kind to me also - dare I say friendlier than the locals? I'm not sure how your video somehow disproves that.

I've travelled a bit in my life and lived a few countries and on my travels I've seen BNP marces in Britain, Fascist Pro-Franco marches here in Madrid, Pro Pinocochet remembrance march in Chile but of course the fact that hateful people exist among all populations won't wash with you because it doesn't support your racist agenda. My examples were from countries with white populations but I can see you only like to use examples of dark skinned people, so I'll leave you to it.


Tell me, have you ever lived in an area with a large Muslim population? You sound like you have some experience of this.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

As to the Know (....)of any kind.

Muslims again....?