Gay Adoption?

Madam_X

If it's nurture, how come Boy George, whose father was a brute and brothers turned out to be tough ****ers... is queen of queens?

wetfoot

Vomit wrote: »

I don't think homosexuality will ever be fully accepted, as it challenges the very core of the yin-yang structure upon which society and the human race sits. It goes against the grain of most people's very identity.

Actually, that's not really true. The gays were at it openly, legally and celebratory right up until the 4th century when the assorted religious Councils (Nicaea, Elvira, Ankara etc.) decided it was naughty and should be stopped.

Bannasidhe

wylam wrote: »

@Majesticdonkey ,People are not homophobic of their own accord , these are learned traits , from grandparents , parents and peers. And I moved to west cork 15 years ago and i've never met more clannish , pig ignorant , nosy bunch of people in my entire life.I will be labelled a "blow in" for the rest of my life , and my children are referred to as "the blow in's daughter/son" . I can just imagine what the talk would be if someone came out a being gay lol.

Then why have soooo many of my very out lesbian friends moved to West Cork? There is hardly a town in West Cork* I don't know at least one lesbian couple and I'm veh anti-social so if I know one couple the place must be crawling with them.... and the all have jobs locally... bloody good jobs most of them....



*Thought of one - Union Hall. Doesn't mean there arn't any - just that don't personally know any.

WayneMolloy

Lefties will argue that gender is irrelevant,its perfectly normal to have same sex parents yadda yadda.

Then call for gender quotas in the dail.:rolleyes:

wonderfulname

Madam_X wrote: »

If it's nurture, how come Boy George, whose father was a brute and brothers turned out to be tough ****ers... is queen of queens?

I always find myself asking questions that never get answered in these threads but anyway, another one, even if it were nurture why would it matter? Even if it were the case that a higher % of kids of same sex couples wound up gay, what exactly would be wrong with that? It's not actually the case but the whole argument hinges on the idea that being gay is undesirable, it's not.

Vomit

wetfoot wrote: »

Actually, that's not really true. The gays were at it openly, legally and celebratory right up until the 4th century when the assorted religious Councils (Nicaea, Elvira, Ankara etc.) decided it was naughty and should be stopped.

Let the Straw meet the Man!!

Bannasidhe

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Lefties will argue that gender is irrelevant,its perfectly normal to have same sex parents yadda yadda.

Then call for gender quotas in the dail.:rolleyes:

Hello Wayne.

May I call you Wayne?

Well, Wayne I hate to be the one to tell you put you appear to have wandered into the wrong thread. I, know...happens us all. No need to be embarrassed. Think nothing of it.

blackhound

First off I haven't read the rest of this thread but what does something someone does in the bedroom have any bearing on their ability to raise a child?

The way I see the main problem with this argument is people's own fear of sex, end of.

wylam

@Majesticdonkey , apologies my mistake.

Bannasidhe

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Isn't it about time you grew up, instead of posting silly comments like that? What makes you think I'm still in school?

I'll explain:
I worded it like so:

...meaning I still actually know the people I went to school with, as opposed to:

to show that I'm not actually still in school. And even if I was in school, what makes you think it'd be past my bedtime?

Keep your comments to yourself unless you've got something to add to the debate.

Oh you are such a flirt.

1ZRed

Vomit wrote: »

I don't think homosexuality will ever be fully accepted, as it challenges the very core of the yin-yang structure upon which society and the human race sits. It goes against the grain of most people's very identity. And we don't have to go to satirical extremes and talk about Mammy stays at home baking cakes while Daddy goes to work. But 'boy meets girl' is the reason humankind is still around today.

Who can say for sure that homosexuality isn't something that mostly prevails when nurtured? Richard Dawkins can't. It's a complex thing- the BRAIN is a complex organ. Seems nowadays that homosexuality is promoted and celebrated more than ever in the media and in popular culture.

Maybe I'm just out of touch - who the f**k knows whats supposed to be normal these days. I thought I was with it, but they keep changing what 'it' is.. (It'll happen to you!).

I wouldn't be so quick to believe every study in favour of Gay adoption- studies and statistics and the people who carry them out aren't perfect, and they haven't had enough time.

Society conditions you into thinking what is normal. Remember people thinking that the white race was superior to every other race/being on earth and everything else was abnormal and not accepted and for that to be normal thinking?

It's only in the last few thousand years with mainstream religion that the only emphasis is on man/woman relationships because it was in their benefit to promote and emphasise that. Before that differing sexualities were accepted and all was normal because it wasn't a big deal until a book said so 2000 years ago.

If you lived in Ancient Rome I doubt you'd still hold the same views as you do now as it was commonplace for both genders to experimet with the opposite and same sex. It was normal then and society made it so. Then religion changed that and ruled that out and then that was "the new normal".

And on the yin-yang point; homosexuality has it's place in evolution because if it didn't have a benefit it wouldn't still be around. There are theories that homosexuality was there as a back if the parents of a child were to get killed that they could be there to protect and raise that child. Even then it is thought there role was in protecting and providing for the rest of the community as they wouldn't have the burden of child rearing themselves. In times of food shortage that would be a big advantage to the rest of the group. It's quite logical reasoning.

That's why I do believe the more we move away from the influence of religion and look at things in a more basic and rational way will we see homosexuality as truely normal. It's kind of funny because it's actually going backwards to when it was never an issue to begin with. This is all society at work which determines what is normal. "Boy meets girl" will still be there, but there will be other options too that are just as emphasised.

I don't agee with your opinion that homosexuality will never be seen as truely normal, but I also believe progress will only move as quick as it's most stubborn opponent, so it's a long journey ahead but we'll get there eventually.

WayneMolloy

wonderfulname wrote: »

I always find myself asking questions that never get answered in these threads but anyway, another one, even if it were nurture why would it matter? Even if it were the case that a higher % of kids of same sex couples wound up gay, what exactly would be wrong with that? It's not actually the case but the whole argument hinges on the idea that being gay is undesirable, it's not.

Its a parents worst nightmare tbh - the amount of sh*t their gay child would have to put up with would worry them greatly.

Madam_X

Even if I only wanted same-sex couples to adopt, what business is it of mine what gay couples do? That's my problem with people who aren't affected by it being so dead against it.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Then why have soooo many of my very out lesbian friends moved to West Cork? There is hardly a town in West Cork* I don't know at least one lesbian couple and I'm veh anti-social so if I know one couple the place must be crawling with them.... and the all have jobs locally... bloody good jobs most of them....



*Thought of one - Union Hall. Doesn't mean there arn't any - just that don't personally know any.

Depends on "which" West Cork.
Heading towards Beara is pretty bohemian. The Bandon/Dunmanway part though... not so much.

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Lefties will argue that gender is irrelevant,its perfectly normal to have same sex parents yadda yadda.

Then call for gender quotas in the dail.:rolleyes:

Come on, man. I don't share your views but you're articulate and pretty smart. Don't let yourself down with the above meaningless and generic rhetoric.

MajesticDonkey

wylam wrote: »

@Majesticdonkey , In one hand you're saying that people from west cork are tolerant people and that you have seen more homophobia in london than in small town Ireland.

And on the other hand you are saying that most young people you know still in school (or otherwise) are "against" being gay.I presume these are the same non-homophobic , open minded west cork folk?

Even the way you say "against being gay" as if people had a choice what their sexuality was going to be.

I never mentioned West Cork or London. I think you're confusing me with someone...

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Oh you are such a flirt.

Thanks, wanna hook up?

Bannasidhe

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

I never mentioned West Cork or London. I think you're confusing me with someone...


Thanks, wanna hook up?

My girlfriend says I'm not allowed to play with boys.

Steve O

Can single people adopt?

I'd love a mini-army.

Bannasidhe

Madam_X wrote: »

Even if I only wanted same-sex couples to adopt, what business is it of mine what gay couples do? That's my problem with people who aren't affected by it being so dead against it.

Depends on "which" West Cork.
Heading towards Beara is pretty bohemian. The Bandon/Dunmanway part though... not so much.

Come on, man. I don't share your views but you're articulate and pretty smart. Don't let yourself down with the above meaningless and generic rhetoric.

I know 4 couples in Bandon.

2 in Dunmanway.

and I really am very anti-social ...

The whole of West Cork is a gay-to. :eek:

NuMarvel

Madam_X wrote: »

Depends on "which" West Cork.
Heading towards Beara is pretty bohemian. The Bandon/Dunmanway part though... not so much.

Bandon is not West Cork. They wish they were, but they are not.

Steve O wrote: »

Can single people adopt?

They're not barred from applying, but I have no idea how successful they are at being approved.

wylam

@Bannasidhe, I don't understand the point you are making. I commented on the fact that in my experience people from west cork are not as open minded as Majestic made out. Just because you know at least 1 open lesbian couple in EVERY town in west cork does not mean that the people are tolerant of their sexuality.Just because they are nice to your face doesn't mean the rumor mill isn't working overtime in the back round.And whether they have good jobs or not doesn't really seem relevant.

wonderfulname

WayneMolloy wrote: »

Its a parents worst nightmare tbh - the amount of sh*t their gay child would have to put up with would worry them greatly.

Doesn't really answer the question as to why people use their mistaken impression gay parents raise gay kids as an argument against same sex adoption...

I'd disagree with your point btw but it's off topic so you can PM for those opinions!

WayneMolloy

wonderfulname wrote: »

Doesn't really answer the question as to why people use their mistaken impression gay parents raise gay kids as an argument against same sex adoption...

I'd disagree with your point btw but it's off topic so you can PM for those opinions!

I dont oppose same sex marriage or adoption. If there was a referendum on either, I would probably abstain from voting. Its an issue that I am neutral on.

Vomit

1ZRed wrote: »

Society conditions you into thinking what is normal. Remember people thinking that the white race was superior to every other race/being on earth and everything else was abnormal and not accepted and for that to be normal thinking?

It's only in the last few thousand years with mainstream religion that the only emphasis is on man/woman relationships because it was in their benefit to promote and emphasise that. Before that differing sexualities were accepted and all was normal because it wasn't a big deal until a book said so 2000 years ago.

If you lived in Ancient Rome I doubt you'd still hold the same views as you do now as it was commonplace for both genders to experimet with the opposite and same sex. It was normal then and society made it so. Then religion changed that and ruled that out and then that was "the new normal".

And on the yin-yang point; homosexuality has it's place in evolution because if it didn't have a benefit it wouldn't still be around. There are theories that homosexuality was there as a back if the parents of a child were to get killed that they could be there to protect and raise that child. Even then it is thought there role was in protecting and providing for the rest of the community as they wouldn't have the burden of child rearing themselves. In times of food shortage that would be a big advantage to the rest of the group. It's quite logical reasoning.

That's why I do believe the more we move away from the influence of religion and look at things in a more basic and rational way will we see homosexuality as truely normal. It's kind of funny because it's actually going backwards to when it was never an issue to begin with. This is all society at work which determines what is normal. "Boy meets girl" will still be there, but there will be other options too that are just as emphasised.

I don't agee with your opinion that homosexuality will never be seen as truely normal, but I also believe progress will only move as quick as it's most stubborn opponent, so it's a long journey ahead but we'll get there eventually.

Yes we all know about ancient Rome etc. Society changes- we can cite many things from ancient times that are no longer practised, or have been outlawed/changed etc.

Your point about evolution isn't accurate - something doesn't need to exhibit an actual benefit in order for it to survive natural selection. Take Tourette's syndrome for example: no benefit, but not enough of a threat to general survival to die out.

Here's what Dawkins actually says on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHDCAllQgS0

4:37 is the main part of his understanding of the subject.

You keep talking about how Religion ruined everything, but it's not as simple as that. And please don't talk about racism...that's a different topic altogether.

Bannasidhe

wylam wrote: »

@Bannasidhe, I don't understand the point you are making. I commented on the fact that in my experience people from west cork are not as open minded as Majestic made out. Just because you know at least 1 open lesbian couple in EVERY town in west cork does not mean that the people are tolerant of their sexuality.Just because they are nice to your face doesn't mean the rumor mill isn't working overtime in the back round.And whether they have good jobs or not doesn't really seem relevant.

and I think you missed my point that if West Cork is as intolerant as you portray it lesbian couples (often with their children) would not up sticks and move there. Which they are doing. In bloody droves.

Not to mention the number of lesbians who are from West Cork and are out and proud in their home towns with no one bothering them. They are not 'incomers' - they are from West Cork and still live there by choice.

You may have had the awful experience of being treated as an 'incomer' but none of the people I know who moved have commented on any negative reaction so I cannot help but wonder if you are projecting?

Calhoun

Its actually a terrible state of affairs gay people being able to adopt, think of all the rights they would be taking away from heterosexual couples :pac: :pac: :pac:, oh wait it wont actually change anything .

I personally feel society on a whole would benefit as it would make everyone that bit more equal. Example i can think of is in family courts, if two men could adopt we could finally get away from the bias that is shown in court when a heterosexual couple get divorced and kids are involved.

Shifting the paradigm away from a gender view and more about the individual can only be a good thing.

NuMarvel

WayneMolloy wrote: »

I dont oppose same sex marriage or adoption. If there was a referendum on either, I would probably abstain from voting. Its an issue that I am neutral on.

When there is a referendum, as you're not opposed to it, I would ask that you vote yes. I know it won't affect you personally, but that vote could be the difference as to whether a friend of yours, or a family member, or even a child of yours in the future, can get married.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

and I think you missed my point that if West Cork is as intolerant as you portray it lesbian couples (often with their children) would not up sticks and move there. Which they are doing. In bloody droves.

Not to mention the number of lesbians who are from West Cork and are out and proud in their home towns with no one bothering them. They are not 'incomers' - they are from West Cork and still live there by choice.

You may have had the awful experience of being treated as an 'incomer' but none of the people I know who moved have commented on any negative reaction so I cannot help but wonder if you are projecting?

In fairness, West Cork is great to the gays. We just don't like the blow ins. Except the German blow ins, they spend big, so they're fine.

And off topic, how does a thread about gay adoption have so many posters connected to one small part of the country??

wylam

@Bannasihe, Maybe you're right, maybe the reason they seemed intolerant and pig ignorant to me is because I'm straight!!!! With all these lesbian women arriving I fear i'll end up being "the only straight in the village"

darced

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darced

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padd b1975

Madam_X wrote: »

If it's nurture, how come Boy George, whose father was a brute and brothers turned out to be tough ****ers... is queen of queens?

It could be an act of rebellion towards his macho siblings.

Perharps his ramping up of the campness was his way of saying 'in your face family!' instead of responding with the sort of behaviour tough ****ers would expect.

shopaholic01

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Be careful here Redzer, you're going to be analysed (no pun intended):

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.