Croke Park deal to fail

highly1111 · 16-04-2013 5:16pm

What the government need to do it cut people - not pay. I have worked in the public sector and I hope to again in the future. The amount of dead wood is the problem. There are many many incompetent people who are incredibly unproductive and who are a drain on resources. There is no initiative or performance or productivity benchmark. Those who work hard do incredible work and deserve every penny they earn. I am happy it has being rejected. My concern is that if the government push through redundancies the best will leave and the dead wood will stay as they know they haven't a hope in hell of getting a job anywhere else. Nothing has infuriated me more than working alongside people who absolutely take the piss at every angle possible whilst I would do anything for a permanent position. There is a huge divide between younger and older workers and all CP2 was going to do was increase that divide.

The issue is the number employed within the PS - not their salaries.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=17940

paddy147 · 16-04-2013 5:16pm

Anyone remember the postal strike in 1979.

Posties all went out on strike for 20 WEEKS.

Bring those days back, the unions go all out on strike,and see how much balls FG and Labour have then.

They will run a fcuking mile,I can tell you that.

Thats whats needed now..stick it to FG and Labour.

Son Of A Vidic · 16-04-2013 5:17pm

Sergeant wrote: »

Absolutely great news. The Government have tried mediation and will now use legislation to make the cuts necessary to restore some semblance of economic sovereignty to the State.

Economic sovereignty? Don't make me laugh, that's long gone.

twinytwo · 16-04-2013 5:17pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Anyone remember the postal strike in 1979.

Posties all went out on strike for 20 WEEKS.

Bring those days back, the unions go all out on strike,and see how much balls FG and Labour have then.

They will run a fcuking mile,I can tell you that.

Thats whats need now..stick it to FG and Labour.

your missing the point.... the country cannot afford to continue to pay the PS the vast sums of money its consumes... go on strike all you wont it wont change this fact.

super_furry · 16-04-2013 5:18pm

Stinicker wrote: »

There should be no cuts in my opinion what should be is around 100,000 forced redundancies and cut the fat from the system.

OK. So what's the make-up of those 100,000? How many nurses, Gardai, fire men, teachers and doctors are included?

Uriel. · 16-04-2013 5:19pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Anyone remember the postal strike in 1979.

Posties all went out on strike for 20 WEEKS.

Bring those days back, the unions go all out on strike,and see how much balls FG and Labour have then.

They will run a fcuking mile,I can tell you that.

Thats whats needed now..stick it to FG and Labour.

I doubt many families could afford 20 weeks of no pay to strike that long - considering the size of mortgages etc... around their necks and Unions don't have that kind of resource to fund a long-term strike

Lord Trollington · 16-04-2013 5:19pm

SB2013 wrote: »

Why wouldn't they? Their actions won't be the cause of anything. By your logic they should all just work for free as long as someone needs them.

I'm sick of hearing about all these phantom workers earning 65k.

Get a grip. Who said anything about working for free.

In the public sector people won't use a paper clip unless there is a benefit in it for them.

twinytwo · 16-04-2013 5:20pm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Get a grip. Who said anything about working for free.

In the public sector people won't use a paper clip unless there is a benefit in it for them.

lets not forget.... they got paid extra to answer phones and put paper in the copier.... i **** you not.

paddy147 · 16-04-2013 5:20pm

twinytwo wrote: »

your missing the point.... the country cannot afford to continue to pay the PS the vast sums of money its consumes... go on strike all you wont it wont change this fact.

Do you know what happened in 1979 then???

The goverment (FF) failed in trying to beat the posties down....My father was one of those posties on the picket lines.

People power won then,and thats whats needed now.

Sick of all this FG/Labour shyte now.

Gilmore has his own interests at heart and couldnt give a flying fcuk about the Irish people he supposedly is there to "work for".:mad::mad:

Means Of Escape · 16-04-2013 5:20pm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I would hope not. That's the kinda $hit that has us where we are today.

People in the public sector are completely out of touch with reality.

Approx 1.5m people working in Ireland and 68,000 siptu members can hold the country at gun point.

I don't see much sympathy coming for the PS.

The more cuts that are made in the public sector the further down the ****ter the private sector will go. It's called disposable income.

SB2013 · 16-04-2013 5:21pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well if it does then they will lose whatever small amount of goodwilland support they had left within the private sector.

Hasn't really done them mucj good so far.

highly1111 wrote: »

What the government need to do it cut people - not pay. I have worked in the public sector and I hope to again in the future. The amount of dead wood is the problem. There are many many incompetent people who are incredibly unproductive and who are a drain on resources. There is no initiative or performance or productivity benchmark. Those who work hard do incredible work and deserve every penny they earn. I am happy it has being rejected. My concern is that if the government push through redundancies the best will leave and the dead wood will stay as they know they haven't a hope in hell of getting a job anywhere else. Nothing has infuriated me more than working alongside people who absolutely take the piss at every angle possible whilst I would do anything for a permanent position. There is a huge divide between younger and older workers and all CP2 was going to do was increase that divide.

The issue is the number employed within the PS - not their salaries.

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=17940

That's exactly what will happen. I know quite a few young Gardaí that have put in applications for the WA police. Also quite a few older ones that will be retiring ASAP. Also know quite a few nurses and teachers who are looking to move out of the country.

Dyr · 16-04-2013 5:21pm

Presumably labour hang in for dear life and hope things turn around over the life of the govt. now because if theres an election tomorrow then theyre ****ing dead

space_man · 16-04-2013 5:21pm

super_furry wrote: »

The Labour party is dead. They are supposed to represent the interests of the working class Irish citizens but have instead thrown them under the Troika and the Bank's on-coming juggernaut.

Lab do not represent the working classes. Where did u get that idea?

for the past 25 years Lab have been nothing more than middle class pressure group.

twinytwo · 16-04-2013 5:22pm

paddy147 wrote: »

Do you know what happened in 1979 then???

The goverment (FF) failed in trying to beet the posties down.

People power won then,and thats whats needed now.

Sick of all this FG/Labour shyte now.

Gilmore has his own interests at heart and couldnt give a flying fcuk about the Irish people he supposedly is there to "work for".:mad::mad:

Dont get me wrong, gilmore is a complete and utter twat. But the country cannot afford the public service, this is a fact, what will people power achieve? going on strike for 10 weeks? country still wont be able to pay for the PS at the end of it.

Gmol · 16-04-2013 5:23pm

me bolly wrote: »

The more cuts that are made in the public sector the further down the ****ter the private sector will go. It's called disposable income.

serious question what is the alternative? Forget about the bank debt, we are overspending on our day to day costs of running the country. It's either raise taxes or reduce spending

SB2013 · 16-04-2013 5:23pm

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Get a grip. Who said anything about working for free.

In the public sector people won't use a paper clip unless there is a benefit in it for them.

twinytwo wrote: »

lets not forget.... they got paid extra to answer phones and put paper in the copier.... i **** you not.

I'd ask for a source but I reckon that'd be asking way too much.

DoesNotCompute · 16-04-2013 5:23pm

twinytwo wrote: »

your missing the point.... the country cannot afford to continue to pay the PS the vast sums of money its consumes... go on strike all you wont it wont change this fact.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

Page 6, Fig 1.b.

In 2011, Pay only accounted for 30% of state expenditure. Pensions accounted for a measly 6%. Tackle Social Protection and "other" before you start coming after wages.

twinytwo · 16-04-2013 5:25pm

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

Page 6, Fig 1.b.

In 2011, Pay only accounted for 30% of state expenditure. Pensions accounted for a measly 6%. Tackle Social Protection and "other" before you start coming after wages.

And how much did the country have to borrow in that time?

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater · 16-04-2013 5:25pm

twinytwo wrote: »

lets not forget.... they got paid extra to answer phones and put paper in the copier.... i **** you not.

Go home, you're drunk

nolow · 16-04-2013 5:26pm

Uriel. wrote: »

oh Really???

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/surprise-as-pay-is-up-despite-years-of-austerity-29198299.html[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, you make my point for me. Sure there's turnaround in some sectors and some were never really hit at all. But try convincing the 426,000 now on the dole who used to pay taxes that kept the PS gravy train flowing that their benefits be cut so the PS increments be paid.

The PS pay bill was always too high even during the boom and benchmarking make it worse.

As for those of you who wonder about the 'phantom' 65k earners. Well I know several personally. A classic example is the couple who between them earn over a €100k, no kids either. The moaning about their lot is unbelievable. On the other hand I know someone who is on around €65k. Her husband has been out of work long term now. They live quite comfortably in a nice house in a nice area. You know why? They managed their money properly.

Deise Vu · 16-04-2013 5:28pm

It's OK we're saved, I'm Alright Jack O'Connor has a consensual solution - he want's the rest of us to consent to pay to keep his members in the style to which they are accustomed:

Extract from Irish Times report today:

"Mr O' Connor said the Government could choose to go down the consensual route which was still open to it and suggested the introduction of a mini budget to secure the savings required. "

You've got to laugh really. I am thrilled it was rejected. Now the Govt will be forced to govern and we won't have to listen to how they would love to stop Photopcopier Ink Changing Allowances but can't because of Croke Park 2. The inevitable strikes should have been provoked 5 years ago and we would have at least one plank of the economy sorted by now. Next up the banks, and the legal and medical professions. When the Govt get a taste of blood they might actually start to enjoy governing.

Phill Ewinn · 16-04-2013 5:28pm

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

Page 6, Fig 1.b.

In 2011, Pay only accounted for 30% of state expenditure. Pensions accounted for a measly 6%. Tackle Social Protection and "other" before you start coming after wages.

PS pensions cost €3bn per anum. Social welfare (including old age pensions) costs €3.7bn. The problem we have now is people not moving with the times.

Lean the PS, change processes and sack whats not needed.

space_man · 16-04-2013 5:28pm

personally i would love to see the public sector unions go on strike.
the outpouring of public sympathy would be something to see. LOL

Uriel. · 16-04-2013 5:29pm

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

Page 6, Fig 1.b.

In 2011, Pay only accounted for 30% of state expenditure. Pensions accounted for a measly 6%. Tackle Social Protection and "other" before you start coming after wages.

I'd agree. But pay and numbers need further cut in the PS. rationalisation in services and recentralisation in the Civil Service also required.

Attempts at SW reduction have been very meager so far and more needs to be done there in a broader context.

twinytwo · 16-04-2013 5:34pm

SB2013 wrote: »

I'd ask for a source but I reckon that'd be asking way too much.

I believe its refered to as "telephone allowance" and could be up to 4000 on top of salary.

http://www.thejournal.ie/public-sector-allowances-the-ones-they-want-abolished-600011-Sep2012/?utm_source=shortlink

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2012/09/outcome-of-the-review-of-public-service-allowances.pdf

I stand corrected on the copier... it wasnt paper they were paid to change but toner

Pappa Charlie · 16-04-2013 5:36pm

Sergeant wrote: »

Absolutely great news. The Government have tried mediation and will now use legislation to make the cuts necessary to restore some semblance of economic sovereignty to the State.

I bet you really believe that alright!

paddy147 · 16-04-2013 5:36pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

It's OK we're saved, I'm Alright Jack O'Connor has a consensual solution - he want's the rest of us to consent to pay to keep his members in the style to which they are accustomed:

Extract from Irish Times report today:

"Mr O' Connor said the Government could choose to go down the consensual route which was still open to it and suggested the introduction of a mini budget to secure the savings required. "

You've got to laugh really. I am thrilled it was rejected. Now the Govt will be forced to govern and we won't have to listen to how they would love to stop Photopcopier Ink Changing Allowances but can't because of Croke Park 2. The inevitable strikes should have been provoked 5 years ago and we would have at least one plank of the economy sorted by now. Next up the banks, and the legal and medical professions. When the Govt get a taste of blood they might actually start to enjoy governing.

Jack O,Conner is a clueless muppet.

He didnt know his ar5e from his elbow when he was RTE 6.1 news a few weeks back.
Couldnt answer any question,had all his figures mixed up too.:eek::eek::mad:

Get in someone who actually can represent all the union workers and answer a question on the news.

Jawgap · 16-04-2013 5:37pm

Glad it's gone - it was a bad deal, done badly and it's potential savings were hugely over-estimated.

There's huge potential for reform in the civil and public services, but the politicians don't have the bottle to set up and drive through proper modernisation and reform programmes - I'm talking about compulsory redundancies and redeployments, an end to cronyism and clientism (all the FF appointees have been replaced with FG & LAB ones), proper local government structures (we could replace 30+ LAs with 4/5 regional authorities that would deliver proper services), better use of technology and state assets such as schools and Garda stations......etc

But this is Ireland and every constituency, town and village has to have what the neighbour has - in fact in many cases if they have to have something better than the neighbour has.

For the record, I'm one of the 'highly' paid civil servants.

The only downside to the rejection of CPII is I don't get to reduce my hours to the 39 per week set out under the agreement

rasper · 16-04-2013 5:38pm

So this benchmarking part II then

SB2013 · 16-04-2013 5:38pm

twinytwo wrote: »

I believe its refered to as "telephone allowance" and could be up to 4000 on top of salary.

http://www.thejournal.ie/public-sector-allowances-the-ones-they-want-abolished-600011-Sep2012/?utm_source=shortlink

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2012/09/outcome-of-the-review-of-public-service-allowances.pdf

That story you linked seems to say it's an allowance for answering a work mobile out of working hours.

Croke Park deal to fail

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