Tblisi Cup. June 2013. "Emerging Ireland"

lfcjfc

.ak wrote: »

Why?

Sorry but I really hate this way of thinking. The 10 doesn't have to be the goal kicker.

While the 10 doesnt have to be the kicker, a 10 that cant kick complicates team selections. Decisions on players for other positions becomes dictated by who can kick. Instead of having a first choice 10 that can kick, you end up with a first choice 10 and eg a locked-in fullback that can kick - great if you happen to have Leigh 1/2p in your team.

croket

Final : SA 19 - 8 Ireland

Fireball07

Agus sin é.


Lost 19-8...bit of a disappointing result, it could be put down to a lack of cohesion though. Some poor mistakes in good areas, and defensively we looked a bit all over the place in the first half.


I thought Reid, Kearney, Nagle, Ruddock, Annett were all decent. Missed some of the 2nd half though.

Losty Dublin

Buer wrote: »

They're at the discretion of the referee and foul play covers pretty much everything in the game that is against the laws. Deliberately dropping a scrum to prevent a try, is foul play, for example.

Prevent a probable try, Buer, not a "we would have scored for sure if" try

lfcjfc

lfcjfc wrote: »

While the 10 doesnt have to be the kicker, a 10 that cant kick complicates team selections. Decisions on players for other positions becomes dictated by who can kick. Instead of having a first choice 10 that can kick, you end up with a first choice 10 and eg a locked-in fullback that can kick - great if you happen to have Leigh 1/2p in your team.

Well Keatley can kick. And kick well.

If he was the best 10 on the planet and couldn't kick, you'd let Murray wind up the points @ Munster, and Murray/McFadden/Kearney / Luke Marshall could all kick in green.

Murray should still be kept practising (and even given some responsibility the odd time) tbh, nothing wrong with having options on the pitch.

Piliger

Deleted User wrote: »

showed that an out half that can't kick can be a pretty useful member of a team.

A fairly complete one man dismissal of the statement

On the contrary it just reinforces my statement. Keatley has no overwhelming compensating skill, unlike Larkham. And unlike Aussie at the time we have players of equal or even far better ability at 10. So this thing about 10 is irrelevant and a red herring.

I actually like Keatley and would have given him a start ahead of Jackson in the 6 Nations. But it is deeply disappointing to a guy who is on a fringes of the national team being unable to perform in a match like this, with no real pressure. I now see no reason to give him a chance for the senior squad ahead of Madigan who has proved himself a far better kicker repeatedly.

Piliger

Piliger wrote:

Nothing he does matters if he can't deliver with the boot.

Does not mean "Ian Keatley is not good enough in other elements of his game to make up for his non-top class kicking".

---

I'm not going to get into it further. Your statement was a write-off of an outhalf because he wasn't kicking well. It is an argument that pops up time and time again because Irish rugby was blessed to have an outstanding kicker (who also played at 10) for so long. We've come to pair them both.

Rugby is a team sport. You pick the team most likely to win a game as a coach. Sometimes that means you play a guy who doesn't kick (see Crosbie in his second year @ U20s) because he adds a dimension to the backline that the 5* kicker can't.

There's no shame or issue with being a non-kicking 10. Larkham was one of the world's best out halves without being much use off the deck. We should have plenty of good footballers in our rugby teams, well able to kick goals. McFadden, Murray, Carr are all players that were prolific kickers and didn't play out half.

In any case. Keatley is a good kicker, still young (26) and is about to take the reigns at Munster for the coming season. Writing him off because he missed an easy kick in the Tiblisi Cup is a bit odd no?

Fireball07

Piliger wrote: »

On the contrary it just reinforces my statement. Keatley has no overwhelming compensating skill, unlike Larkham. And unlike Aussie at the time we have players of equal or even far better ability at 10. So this thing about 10 is irrelevant and a red herring.

I actually like Keatley and would have given him a start ahead of Jackson in the 6 Nations. But it is deeply disappointing to a guy who is on a fringes of the national team being unable to perform in a match like this, with no real pressure. I now see no reason to give him a chance for the senior squad ahead of Madigan who has proved himself a far better kicker repeatedly.

I reckon Keatley is actually a more consistent kicker than Jackson at the moment. But I don't think he's a better player currently, and wouldn't have had him ahead of either Madigan or Jackson for the 6N or now. Hopefully he can stake a claim next season though, they're all going to be starting every week.

TheKeenMachine

How were Cooney/Heaney can anyone tell me?

NU8

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

How were Cooney/Heaney can anyone tell me?

I thought both were good. Cooney's passing was consistently good and did the basics well. Would pick Cooney ahead of Heaney as I felt the speed of his passing helped our attack.

Piliger

Deleted User wrote: »

Does not mean "Ian Keatley is not good enough in other elements of his game to make up for his non-top class kicking".

---

I'm not going to get into it further. Your statement was a write-off of an outhalf because he wasn't kicking well. It is an argument that pops up time and time again because Irish rugby was blessed to have an outstanding kicker (who also played at 10) for so long. We've come to pair them both.

Rugby is a team sport. You pick the team most likely to win a game as a coach. Sometimes that means you play a guy who doesn't kick (see Crosbie in his second year @ U20s) because he adds a dimension to the backline that the 5* kicker can't.

There's no shame or issue with being a non-kicking 10. Larkham was one of the world's best out halves without being much use off the deck. We should have plenty of good footballers in our rugby teams, well able to kick goals. McFadden, Murray, Carr are all players that were prolific kickers and didn't play out half.

In any case. Keatley is a good kicker, still young (26) and is about to take the reigns at Munster for the coming season. Writing him off because he missed an easy kick in the Tiblisi Cup is a bit odd no?

Firstly I'm not writing him off other than for this coming season. Too many better players than him, especially under pressure. Anyone and everyone can improve, though at 26 he is no spring chicken. Your point about 10 being a kicker is just repeating something I didn't disagree about at all. We had Tom Kiernan for years.

jacothelad

Deleted User wrote: »

showed that an out half that can't kick can be a pretty useful member of a team.

A fairly complete one man dismissal of the statement

Yes. Jack Kyle, Tom Kiernan, Mike Gibson, Paul Deans, Elwood and a host of other 'kickers' for Ireland should never have been capped as they 'didn't deliver with the boot' at 90%. Lucky buggers to have even been thought about as potential internationals.....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

jacothelad

Piliger wrote: »

Firstly I'm not writing him off other than for this coming season. Too many better players than him, especially under pressure. Anyone and everyone can improve, though at 26 he is no spring chicken. Your point about 10 being a kicker is just repeating something I didn't disagree about at all. We had Tom Kiernan for years.

.and Kiernan was pretty crap at goal kicking. His nephew, Michael was a better kicker.

trouttrout

Piliger wrote: »

Firstly I'm not writing him off other than for this coming season. Too many better players than him, especially under pressure. Anyone and everyone can improve, though at 26 he is no spring chicken. Your point about 10 being a kicker is just repeating something I didn't disagree about at all. We had Tom Kiernan for years.

So your basing your view on him as a poor kicker under pressure on one game?

Hype710

Has the game from yesterday gone up on YouTube or anything? Or available on the IRB website?

lurtz

Hype710 wrote: »

Has the game from yesterday gone up on YouTube or anything? Or available on the IRB website?

on the irfu website they have a link to a full replay

thomond2006

Emerging Ireland team to play Uruguay (Tbilisi Cup - Avchala Stadium, Tbilisi, Sunday 16th June - Kick-off 16.00hrs local/13.00hrs Irish time

15 - David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
14 - Niall Morris (Leicester/Exiles)
13 - Eoin Griffin (Galwegians/Connacht)
12 - Noel Reid (Clontarf/Leinster)
11 - Tiernan O'Halloran (Galwegians/Connacht)
10 - Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
9 - John Cooney (Lansdowne/Leinster)

1 - Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s/Leinster)
2 - Robert Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
3 - Michael Bent (Leinster)
4 - Dave O’Callaghan (Dolphin/Munster)
5 - David Foley (UL Bohemian/Munster)
6 - Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s/Leinster)(Captain)
7 - Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
8 - Eoin McKeon (Galwegians/Connacht)

Replacements:
16 - Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
17 - Richard Lutton (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
18 - Ian Nagle (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
20 - Michael Heaney (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
21 - Brendan Macken (Blackrock/Leinster)
22 - Peter Nelson (Dungannon/ Ulster)

Blackheath

Interesting to see DOCII plays in the 2nd row

thomond2006

Blackheath wrote: »

Interesting to see DOCII plays in the 2nd row

Plus he's put ahead of Nagle.

jacothelad

thomond2006 wrote: »

Emerging Ireland team to play Uruguay (Tbilisi Cup - Avchala Stadium, Tbilisi, Sunday 16th June - Kick-off 16.00hrs local/13.00hrs Irish time

15 - David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
14 - Niall Morris (Leicester/Exiles)
13 - Eoin Griffin (Galwegians/Connacht)
12 - Noel Reid (Clontarf/Leinster)
11 - Tiernan O'Halloran (Galwegians/Connacht)
10 - Ian Keatley (Young Munster/Munster)
9 - John Cooney (Lansdowne/Leinster)

1 - Jack McGrath (St. Mary’s/Leinster)
2 - Robert Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
3 - Michael Bent (Leinster)
4 - Dave O’Callaghan (Dolphin/Munster)
5 - David Foley (UL Bohemian/Munster)
6 - Rhys Ruddock (St. Mary’s/Leinster)(Captain)
7 - Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
8 - Eoin McKeon (Galwegians/Connacht)

Replacements:
16 - Niall Annett (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
17 - Richard Lutton (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
18 - Ian Nagle (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Dominic Ryan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
20 - Michael Heaney (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
21 - Brendan Macken (Blackrock/Leinster)
22 - Peter Nelson (Dungannon/ Ulster)

Only one bench prop?

Tox56

jacothelad wrote: »

Only one bench prop?

Bent covers both sides

durkadurka

Tox56 wrote: »

Bent covers both sides

Equally incompetently?

Tox56

durkadurka wrote: »

Equally incompetently?

We're playing Uruguay for feck sake, Noel Reid could cover loosehead

.ak

durkadurka wrote: »

Equally incompetently?

He could be possibly better as a loosey, that's his natural position afaik

CIARAN_BOYLE

jacothelad wrote: »

Only one bench prop?

22 man squads in the Tblisi cup.

Tox56 wrote: »

Bent covers both sides

So does Lutton, as does McGrath albeit poorly.

Pity Moore got no gametime on this tour.

CatFromHue

durkadurka wrote: »

Equally incompetently?

You're so ruthless when you're sober!

CIARAN_BOYLE

What time today are we playing at?

CIARAN_BOYLE

game on now 1pm kick off

CIARAN_BOYLE

7-0 Ireland lead Keatley try

danthefan

http://www.irb.com/live/video.html