Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

Oranage2

MadsL wrote: »

Funny how that "rule" only applies if your name somehow 'translates' to something probably/possibly Irish or stretched to make it Irishy. Oh, and isn't written into any rulebook or policy. And is exempted if you have a different ethnicity.

Well didn't you know her name was going to be changed?

As her father I think you really let her down, you should have asked about the name when she first started if it was going to be an issue.

MadsL

Oranage2 wrote: »

Well didn't you know her name was going to be changed?

As her father I think you really let her down, you should have asked about the name when she first started if it was going to be an issue.

Your reading comprehension is really bad. Please try harder, Pammy.

An irritant is not an "issue".

Dia is Miuire is Padraig duit!

aSligoDub

OP, Just tell her to lighten up and not worry about it, goes for you too.

My daughters name is Sarah. Anyone know the irish for that? Just so i'm prepared for battle if this 'problem' ever comes up.

MadsL

aSligoDub wrote: »

OP, Just tell her to lighten up and not worry about it, goes for you too.

We are both quite light about it - despite posters drama about changing schools and letting my daughter down.

My daughters name is Sarah. Anyone know the irish for that? Just so i'm prepared for battle if this 'problem' ever comes up.

She's going to have a hate relationship with the name Sorcha I suspect. Even if it isn't a translation, she'll get stuck with it.

The Big Red Button

I went to Gaelteacht colleges a few times in secondary school. Names were always translated to Irish versions.

Even then, I thought it ridiculous. I was an Emma, so thankfully there's no Irish translation. But, for example, in one of the houses I lived in, there were two Áines - Ann and Anna. There were also four Máires - Mary, two Maries, and a Maria.

If the parents had wanted to name the kids Áine and Máire, they'd have named them that. Your name is intrinsically related to your identity. I wouldn't have responded if I was called by another name ... why would anyone?

I remember we all used to call a kid called Tomás "Mossy" in primary school. Our teacher stopped us from doing that - she told us that his parents gave him a name - Tomás - and that's the name we would use. Simple as that. Same logic goes for translating names to Irish, in my opinion.

I'd be very annoyed if a teacher chose to bestow a new name upon my child. Whatever language/culture was involved. My child's name, the one I chose for them, is their name! E.g. I love the name Saidbh, but would never name a child Sophie. Two very different names.

However, I don't agree with the OP stepping out of the whole thing - leaving his kid to fight her own battles (but still complaining about it) because he's not in the same country. A simple phone-call to the principal could sort it all out very quickly.

aSligoDub

MadsL wrote: »

She's going to have a hate relationship with the name Sorcha I suspect. Even if it isn't a translation, she'll get stuck with it.

Sorcha.. Not bad. Think i'll try it out over brekkie.

Now off to school with the lot of ye!

The Big Red Button

aSligoDub wrote: »

OP, Just tell her to lighten up and not worry about it, goes for you too.

My daughters name is Sarah. Anyone know the irish for that? Just so i'm prepared for battle if this 'problem' ever comes up.

It's Sorcha. Pronounced something like Soar-kah.

In my own opinion, Sarah is a lovely name. Sorcha isn't, at all.

You're really willing to have your daughter called by a completely different name than the one you chose for her? Why would you be OK with that?

What if the school decided to call her Pauline - because that was part of their tradition - would you be OK with that too?

MadsL

chatterpillar wrote: »

However, I don't agree with the OP stepping out of the whole thing - leaving his kid to fight her own battles (but still complaining about it) because he's not in the same country. A simple phone-call to the principal could sort it all out very quickly.

No point in me fighting battles she doesn't want me to fight. It pisses her off, not upsets her. Trust me if she got upset I'd be straight on the phone.

TheDoc

MadsL wrote: »

But it is not her name. Would you expect to be called Ricardo in Spain rather than Richard? Your name is an important part of your identity.

Well I think the issue here is that your child has an English name, which is being translated to Irish correctly, and you have a problem?

If I was Spanish, in a Spanish school ( ive no idea if Richard = Ricardo) then yeah, I'd be called Ricardo

I wouldnt be called Richard, as that is not a Spanish name.

It is par for the course that in a Gaelscoil, you will get an Irish name. It is commonplace for people to assume their name Irish because it has a little fada, but it's actually incorrect or simply English.

My name is Daniel, and my Irish teacher always addressed me as Donal ( probably with a fada somewhere). I didn't go mental because my name wasn't, I coped on that probably the fluent Irish fella knew better....

And if this is the only problem your daughter is having in school, I'd count your lucky stars and get on with it, especially in this day and age

MadsL

TheDoc wrote: »

Well I think the issue here is that your child has an English name, which is being translated to Irish correctly, and you have a problem?

Why do some names need 'translations' whilst others do not?

If I was Spanish, in a Spanish school ( ive no idea if Richard = Ricardo) then yeah, I'd be called Ricardo. I wouldnt be called Richard, as that is not a Spanish name.

That makes no sense???? Is there a book of official Spanish names? The communists used to do that in Central Europe.

What if you were half-Spanish named after your Uncle Richard?

It is par for the course that in a Gaelscoil, you will get an Irish name. It is commonplace for people to assume their name Irish because it has a little fada, but it's actually incorrect or simply English.

My name is Daniel, and my Irish teacher always addressed me as Donal ( probably with a fada somewhere). I didn't go mental because my name wasn't, I coped on that probably the fluent Irish fella knew better....

Is your name Donal? Simple question.

And if this is the only problem your daughter is having in school, I'd count your lucky stars and get on with it, especially in this day and age

Yes, Father. Sorry, Father.

OCorcrainn

In Germany people are mostly given German names, same applies to Ireland and Irish names.

If you have a problem with Irish than why the f*ck did you send your child to a Gaelscoil?

To be honest OP I think you are full of sh*t.

Peregrinus

It''s pretty standard with "immersion" techniques of language education to require each student to adopt a name in the language of immersion, and to use that name in the educational environment. In general students will chose (or will be assigned) a name which is linguistically related to their name in their native language (so John becomes Jean or Jan or Johann or Giovanni or Eoin or whatever) but it's not essential; they can adopt an unrelated name if there is no cognate name, or simply if they prefer it. I have a friend who was assigned the name "Rebecca" by her high school English teacher in Shangai; she still goes by that name in anglophone circles. With her family and Chinese-speaking friends, she has an entirely different name.

The point is the gaelscoil is doing nothing unusual here; what they are doing is basically pretty standard for the educational technique that they employ. If you don't want your child exposed to this, don't send them to a gaelscoil (or any other school that practices immersion language teaching). If you do send them to a gaelscoil, don't complain about this practice.

Rubeter

TheDoc wrote: »

Well I think the issue here is that your child has an English name, which is being translated to Irish correctly, and you have a problem?

If I was Spanish, in a Spanish school ( ive no idea if Richard = Ricardo) then yeah, I'd be called Ricardo

I wouldnt be called Richard, as that is not a Spanish name.

Do you think schools here are insisting that pupils named Ivan or Jan are called John?
Or how about a school insisting Séan should be called John.
Do you call foreign people by their real name or by an English version (if there is one)?

If you were in a school in Spain they would call you by your given name, the only difference would be that people might accidently call you Ricardo as that is easier and more familiar to them, but nobody would insist on it and would actually apologise if you point it out. I would feel stupid calling a Spaniard named Ricardo, Richard.

MadsL

OCorcrainn wrote: »

In Germany people are mostly given German names, same applies to Ireland and Irish names.

You want to enforce what parents name their children? Seriously?

If you have a problem with Irish than why the f*ck did you send your child to a Gaelscoil?

To be honest OP I think you are full of sh*t.

You think I have a problem with Irish? Have you read this thread? Have a go at stopping your knee from jerking and have a bit of a think.

MadsL

Peregrinus wrote: »

It''s pretty standard with "immersion" techniques of language education to require each student to adopt a name in the language of immersion, and to use that name in the educational environment. In general students will chose (or will be assigned) a name which is linguistically related to their name in their native language (so John becomes Jean or Jan or Johann or Giovanni or Eoin or whatever) but it's not essential; they can adopt an unrelated name if there is no cognate name, or simply if they prefer it. I have a friend who was assigned the name "Rebecca" by her high school English teacher in Shangai; she still goes by that name in anglophone circles. With her family and Chinese-speaking friends, she has an entirely different name.

The point is the gaelscoil is doing nothing unusual here; what they are doing is basically pretty standard for the educational technique that they employ. If you don't want your child exposed to this, don't send them to a gaelscoil (or any other school that practices immersion language teaching). If you do send them to a gaelscoil, don't complain about this practice.

She's been fully fluent in Irish since the age of six, with two years spent in the Gaeltacht. Don't try telling me changing someone's name for all subjects helps them learn Irish. She's not Helga in German class nor Matilda in French class.

MadsL

Peregrinus wrote: »

I have a friend who was assigned the name "Rebecca" by her high school English teacher in Shangai; she still goes by that name in anglophone circles. With her family and Chinese-speaking friends, she has an entirely different name.

This.
how insulting that you can't bother to learn your friend's real name. I'm sure it is not that hard to call her Mei-Li or whatever her actual name is.

Rubeter

Peregrinus wrote: »

I have a friend who was assigned the name "Rebecca" by her high school English teacher in Shangai; she still goes by that name in anglophone circles. With her family and Chinese-speaking friends, she has an entirely different name. .

Absolutly spiffing old chap, it really is tiresome trying to pronounce the bizarre names of the natives.

Peregrinus

MadsL wrote: »

She's been fully fluent in Irish since the age of six, with two years spent in the Gaeltacht. Don't try telling me changing someone's name for all subjects helps them learn Irish. She's not Helga in German class nor Matilda in French class.

That’s possibly because it’s a gaelscoil and not a deutscher schul or an école française. You’re overlooking my reference to immersion education.

MadsL

Peregrinus wrote: »

Does the school teach German or French by immersion?

So they teach Irish by immersion by changing names, but not the same technique in teaching French or German. Are you taking the piss?

Peregrinus

MadsL wrote: »

This.
how insulting that you can't bother to learn your friend's real name. I'm sure it is not that hard to call her Mei-Li or whatever her actual name is.

Not as insulting as your assumption that I can't be bothered to learn my friend's Chinese name. I know her Chinese name. I use her English name, because that's her preference when speaking and writing English, the language in which I communicate with her.

MadsL

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not as insulting as your assumption that I can't be bothered to learn my friend's Chinese name. I know her Chinese name. I use her English name, because that's her preference when speaking and writing English, the language in which I communicate with her.

So your friend's preference should be respected.

See any irony with that?

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

So your friend's preference should be respected.

See any irony with that?

yes, just like your daughters preference should be respected....outside of school....



but in school generally what the teachers say goes, and your daughter needs to learn to respect that, they have a hard enough job without your daughter challenging them on a trivial matter.

Shenshen

You'll have to excuse a foreigner here, but is there actually an Irish equivalent of every single name on the planet?

And if there isn't, what's the point of trying to force a different name onto a person? That does seem rather rude to me.

I remember back when I was learning English, our teachers would call students by the English variety of their names, if there was one (Susanne becoming Susan, Maria becoming Mary, that sort of thing), but in many cases there simply weren't English varieties (Elke, Silke, Sabine, Ulla, etc) so the teachers would call these by their German names.
Nobody objected, but I do think if someone had the teacher would have respected that.

MadsL

hoodwinked wrote: »

yes, just like your daughters preference should be respected....outside of school....



but in school generally what the teachers say goes, and your daughter needs to learn to respect that, they have a hard enough job without your daughter challenging them on a trivial matter.

Someone's name is trivial?

hoodwinked

Shenshen wrote: »

You'll have to excuse a foreigner here, but is there actually an Irish equivalent of every single name on the planet?

no but if there isn't they will try to make one, its the way they work over here....if they don't have a word for something they will make one for it.

Shenshen wrote: »

And if there isn't, what's the point of trying to force a different name onto a person? That does seem rather rude to me.

its not a different name being forced its just they use irish versions of names, im sure the OP would be just as offended if everyone in his daughters class got one except her, i am sure it would be exclusion they would be giving out about if that happened

Shenshen wrote: »

I remember back when I was learning English, our teachers would call students by the English variety of their names, if there was one (Susanne becoming Susan, Maria becoming Mary, that sort of thing), but in many cases there simply weren't English varieties (Elke, Silke, Sabine, Ulla, etc) so the teachers would call these by their German names.
Nobody objected, but I do think if someone had the teacher would have respected that.

i see you say nobody objected probably because we've all had our names pronounced wrong or translated by someone at some point in our lives nobody really cares...

Pherekydes

My kids go to a gaelscoil. Some of the kids have English names (e.g. Hannah) and some don't. They don't invent Irish names for the kids with non Irish names.

I don't understand why the school can't simply call the child by their given name. It's common courtesy.

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

Someone's name is trivial?

no, someone complaining about their name being translated to a teacher trying to deliver this top notch education and wasting said teachers time arguing with them in a way only teenagers can do, is effectively a trivial matter.

MadsL

hoodwinked wrote: »

no, someone complaining about their name being translated to a teacher trying to deliver this top notch education and wasting said teachers time arguing with them in a way only teenagers can do, is effectively a trivial matter.

It is some of the teachers wasting time on insisting on such a "trivial " thing, should they not know better as adults rather than teenagers? I'm not sure how my daughter's or anyone else's education is improved by being forced to answer to a name that is not theirs. Can you explain please.

Peregrinus

MadsL wrote: »

So they teach Irish by immersion by changing names, but not the same technique in teaching French or German. Are you taking the piss?

You're missing the point. The entire school is founded on the principle of creating a gaelic-language culture and encouraging the students to participate in and identify with it, so that activities whcih have nothing to do with instruction in Irish will nevertheless be conducted in Irish. As part of this, proper names are rendered into Irish, including - but not limited to - the proper names of everyone in the community.

In an English-language educational environment, would you object to references to Tsar Nicholas, Philip of Spain, the cities of Rome and Florence? Or would you insist that the Russian, Spanish and Italian proper names should be used? I presume not. And I also assume that you would be happy with these names being gaelicised in the an Irish-language educational environment.

Right. Once we accept that proper names get rendered into the language of instruction and communication, why would we not render our own proper names, and the proper names of other members of the community in this way? What signal is sent by not doing so?

You may or may not be impressed by the theory, but the proponents of immersion education are strong on the notion that students should be encouraged to identify with and participate in the culture in which they are being immersed, and having an appropriate name is part of that. If Pilib na Spáinne is referred to by that name, but you're different, you have to be referred to by a foreign name, that sends a signal of separation between you and the culture and language in which you are supposedly being immersed, which is the opposite of what is desired.

Now, you may or may not agree with this, but it's pretty standard thinking among the proponents of immersion education. And I don't think you can reasonably expect to send your child to a school which practices this philosophy, and then act all surprised and outraged when they do this.

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

It is some of the teachers wasting time on insisting on such a "trivial " thing, should they not know better as adults rather than teenagers? I'm not sure how my daughter's or anyone else's education is improved by being forced to answer to a name that is not theirs. Can you explain please.

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're missing the point. The entire school is founded on the principle of creating a gaelic-language culture and encouraging the students to participate in and identify with it, so that activities whcih have nothing to do with instruction in Irish will nevertheless be conducted in Irish. As part of this, proper names are rendered into Irish, including - but not limited to - the proper names of everyone in the community.

In an English-language educational environment, would you object to references to Tsar Nicholas, Philip of Spain, the cities of Rome and Florence? Or would you insist that the Russian, Spanish and Italian proper names should be used? I presume not. And I also assume that you would be happy with these names being gaelicised in the an Irish-language educational environment.

Right. Once we accept that proper names get rendered into the language of instruction and communication, why would we not render our own proper names, and the proper names of other members of the community in this way? What signal is sent by not doing so?

You may or may not be impressed by the theory, but the proponents of immersion education are strong on the notion that students should be encouraged to identify with and participate in the culture in which they are being immersed, and having an appropriate name is part of that. If Pilib na Spáinne is referred to by that name, but you're different, you have to be referred to by a foreign name, that sends a signal of separation between you and the culture and language in which you are supposedly being immersed, which is the opposite of what is desired.

Now, you may or may not agree with this, but it's pretty standard thinking among the proponents of immersion education. And I don't think you can reasonably expect to send your child to a school which practices this philosophy, and then act all surprised and outraged when they do this.

someone beat me to it! ^