Being forced to use your "Irish" name at school

MadsL

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're missing the point. The entire school is founded on the principle of creating a gaelic-language culture and encouraging the students to participate in and identify with it, so that activities whcih have nothing to do with instruction in Irish will nevertheless be conducted in Irish. As part of this, proper names are rendered into Irish, including - but not limited to - the proper names of everyone in the community.

In an English-language educational environment, would you object to references to Tsar Nicholas, Philip of Spain, the cities of Rome and Florence? Or would you insist that the Russian, Spanish and Italian proper names should be used? I presume not. And I also assume that you would be happy with these names being gaelicised in the an Irish-language educational environment.

Right. Once we accept that proper names get rendered into the language of instruction and communication, why would we not render our own proper names, and the proper names of other members of the community in this way? What signal is sent by not doing so?

You may or may not be impressed by the theory, but the proponents of immersion education are strong on the notion that students should be encouraged to identify with and participate in the culture in which they are being immersed, and having an appropriate name is part of that. If Pilib na Spáinne is referred to by that name, but you're different, you have to be referred to by a foreign name, that sends a signal of separation between you and the culture and language in which you are supposedly being immersed, which is the opposite of what is desired.

Now, you may or may not agree with this, but it's pretty standard thinking among the proponents of immersion education. And I don't think you can reasonably expect to send your child to a school which practices this philosophy, and then act all surprised and outraged when they do this.

And why would the school not follow that philosophy into the teaching of French and German?

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

And why would the school not follow that philosophy into the teaching of French and German?

go to france or germany and ask them, but the same is done in some Welsh language schools in Wales.

thesimpsons

name first name couldn't be changed to Irish (Russian) and I absolutely point blank refused to answer to the version of my surname Irish teacher used in Secondary. I told her what my name was at the start of the year, wrote it in every copy, book and essay ever handed in and eventually she gave up and called me my proper surname. even with kids in gaelcholáiste myself now I still can't fathom how that teacher managed to change my surname into the irish version she came up with.

I don't see the point in changing the names in gaelscoileanna though - daughters class has 5 Siobhans, 4 Máires and 2 Sorchas even though they all have different first names. You'd imagine it would be easier for the teachers to call them by their correct first names rather than each of the 5 Siobhans saying "oh she's not talking to me":D

MadsL

hoodwinked wrote: »

go to france or germany and ask them, but the same is done in some Welsh language schools in Wales.

Go to France???

She is not Hilda in German class nor Matilda in French class in the school.

Rather blows a hole in that (fancy) theory n'est–ce pas?

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

Go to France???

She is not Hilda in German class nor Matilda in French class in the school.

Rather blows a hole in that (fancy) theory n'est–ce pas?

no, because its not a french immersive school its an irish immersive school,

why would you send your child into a school you weren't 100% happy with? its like sending your child to a catholic school and giving out that they do prayers!


great education or not, you go by the practices of the school you choose to send your child to, imagine if every parent changed one thing to suit themselves it would be chaos.

Peregrinus

MadsL wrote: »

And why would the school not follow that philosophy into the teaching of French and German?

That’s possibly because , as pointed out already, it’s a gaelscoil and not a deutscher schul or an école française.

No doubt there are schools which seek to create a French-language culture throughout the school, or a German-language culture. But, for reasons which are too obvious to require explanation, a school can do this for one culture only, and in a gaelscoil the selected culture will not be French or German.

robinph

Seaneh wrote: »

Er, that would be Shawn/Shaun, as pointed out already, Eoin would be John.

Actually could be number of other names you want:

Seán = Shaun/ Shawn = Jean = John = Eoin = Ian = ...

But I don't think anyone here would be suggesting that a kid named Seán should put up with being called Eoin in school just because the teacher decides to.

MadsL

hoodwinked wrote: »

no, because its not a french immersive school its an irish immersive school,

Their language teaching of other languages is below par then is it? As they are not using this best practice of changing names. No wonder my German is so crap, I wasn't called Hans enough.

why would you send your child into a school you weren't 100% happy with?

You would move your kid because you were only 99.9% happy? What a bizarre idea.

its like sending your child to a catholic school and giving out that they do prayers!

I do consider it something of a waste of time - as do many parents. Try asking on boards sometime.

great education or not, you go by the practices of the school you choose to send your child to, imagine if every parent changed one thing to suit themselves it would be chaos.

The chaos :rolleyes: of calling each kid the name they use themselves. The humanity, oh god the humanity!! What is the world coming to?

mitosis

OP, you need to reign in a little. Irish is given recognition by the Constitution as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being a second official language).

So, effectively, the correct form of your child's name is the Irish form. If you want to buck the system you should not send her to an Irish school.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill and, without the wish to judge or criticise as I am sure you believe you are doing what's best, you are compromising your daughter's education by pursuing something so trivial so vigourously.

In my opinion.

StewartGriffin

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're missing the point. The entire school is founded on the principle of creating a gaelic-language culture and encouraging the students to participate in and identify with it, so that activities whcih have nothing to do with instruction in Irish will nevertheless be conducted in Irish. As part of this, proper names are rendered into Irish, including - but not limited to - the proper names of everyone in the community.

In an English-language educational environment, would you object to references to Tsar Nicholas, Philip of Spain, the cities of Rome and Florence? Or would you insist that the Russian, Spanish and Italian proper names should be used? I presume not. And I also assume that you would be happy with these names being gaelicised in the an Irish-language educational environment.

Right. Once we accept that proper names get rendered into the language of instruction and communication, why would we not render our own proper names, and the proper names of other members of the community in this way? What signal is sent by not doing so?

You may or may not be impressed by the theory, but the proponents of immersion education are strong on the notion that students should be encouraged to identify with and participate in the culture in which they are being immersed, and having an appropriate name is part of that. If Pilib na Spáinne is referred to by that name, but you're different, you have to be referred to by a foreign name, that sends a signal of separation between you and the culture and language in which you are supposedly being immersed, which is the opposite of what is desired.

Now, you may or may not agree with this, but it's pretty standard thinking among the proponents of immersion education. And I don't think you can reasonably expect to send your child to a school which practices this philosophy, and then act all surprised and outraged when they do this.

I think this the answer to the OP question.

suicide_circus

Using a made up translation in class is one thing but having an incorrect name in official documents is simply outrageous.
So if the child does her junior or leaving cert in this school her official certificates will have the wrong name? This could cause serious difficulties in all kind of ways. Completely ridiculous. I would demand a meeting with the principle immediately and sort it out.

I have a foreign name and when i went to Irish college one summer they put two Irish words together to make a name that sounded vaguely like my name. Stupid carry on.

MadsL

Peregrinus wrote: »

That’s possibly because , as pointed out already, it’s a gaelscoil and not a deutscher schul or an école française.

No doubt there are schools which seek to create a French-language culture throughout the school, or a German-language culture. But, for reasons which are too obvious to require explanation, a school can do this for one culture only, and in a gaelscoil the selected culture will not be French or German.

How confusing for the wee kiddy winks to have to deal with being called four names instead of only two.

Oh, except if you are Chinese or something, or Sophie, then you can have one.

God the damage though of having Sophie and Kesha mess up the "culture". Like taking a shit in a library hearing someone calling Sophie - so uncultured.

Perhaps we should have priests name kids and rebaptise anyone immigrating to Ireland's shores to keep the culture 'pure'. Just you know to support the "immersion".

hoodwinked

suicide_circus wrote: »

Using a made up translation in class is one thing but having an incorrect name in official documents is simply outrageous.
So if the child does her junior or leaving cert in this school her official certificates will have the wrong name? This could cause serious difficulties in all kind of ways. Completely ridiculous. I would demand a meeting with the principle immediately and sort it out.

like what?

my name was different on my JC and LC exam certificates, nobody batted an eyelid ever....if anyone did i would just say i went to an irish language school but so far nobody has cared....

robinph

mitosis wrote: »

So, effectively, the correct form of your child's name is the Irish form. If you want to buck the system you should not send her to an Irish school.

No, the childs name is the one that their parents give them...or if later in life they decide to change what they would prefer to be called. Nobody has a right to go against the wishes of the person themselves.

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

Perhaps we should have priests name kids and rebaptise anyone immigrating to Ireland's shores to keep the culture 'pure'. Just you know to support the "immersion".

wow over exaggeration much?

we don't immerse people in Ireland in the irish language. just in specific Irish immersion schools....like the one your daughter is in.

Pherekydes

mitosis wrote: »

OP, you need to reign in a little. Irish is given recognition by the Constitution as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being a second official language).

So, effectively, the correct form of your child's name is the Irish form. If you want to buck the system you should not send her to an Irish school.

The correct form of one's name is the name you, or your parents, give you.

suicide_circus

hoodwinked wrote: »

like what?

my name was different on my JC and LC exam certificates, nobody batted an eyelid ever....if anyone did i would just say i went to an irish language school but so far nobody has cared....

So you think it is reasonable to put fake made up names on official documents?

hoodwinked

suicide_circus wrote: »

So you think it is reasonable to put fake made up names on official documents?

no, it wasn't fake, fake is: 1. One that is not authentic or genuine; a sham.

what was on my certs was my name in irish as used by my school....

what was on my birthcert is the name i go by and that ive gone by since school.


both certs are mine just because my name is in a different language on one doesn't make it not mine.

MadsL

mitosis wrote: »

OP, you need to reign in a little. Irish is given recognition by the Constitution as the national and first official language of the Republic of Ireland (with English being a second official language).

So, effectively, the correct form of your child's name is the Irish form.

Utter bollox. Her name is what is recorded on her birth cert, it doesn't need "correcting". Are you seriously suggesting all children need a "correct" Irish name as well???

If you want to buck the system you should not send her to an Irish school.

Or have named her Emma. FFS!!
Buck the system? What system?? There is no system about names, just some asshat tradition. I'm not planning revolution here - just asking for all of the teachers not just some to exercise a tiny tiny courtesy, for which she has asked politely.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill

No, I am clearly not. Neither is my daughter. Some of her teachers on the other hand are simply being rude to her and she dislikes it. Wouldn't call it a mountain nor a molehill. At the moment it is a minor annoyance. But to some posters here she doesn't deserve a education through Irish for criticising it in a small way.

and, without the wish to judge or criticise as I am sure you believe you are doing what's best, you are compromising your daughter's education by pursuing something so trivial so vigourously.

Christ, I had no idea starting a thread on boards could compromise an education. Some responders seem to have a compromised education however and have lost the ability to read.

Agreeing with my daughters irritation is 'compromising her education'. Wow.

]In my opinion.

Noted. Now read back and actually comprehend my opinion and (in)action so far.

mitosis

robinph wrote: »

No, the childs name is the one that their parents give them...or if later in life they decide to change what they would prefer to be called. Nobody has a right to go against the wishes of the person themselves.

No, the name is not being changed, just the language. The name John, for example, means blessed by god, as does Sean, Jean or any other translation. The name has not been changed, just the language it is spoken in. Is the OP happy to have her address in Irish? Probably. The names are the same, but the language is different.

MadsL

hoodwinked wrote: »

no, it wasn't fake, fake is: 1. One that is not authentic or genuine; a sham.

what was on my certs was my name in irish as used by my school....

what was on my birthcert is the name i go by and that ive gone by since school.


both certs are mine just because my name is in a different language on one doesn't make it not mine.

Christened Sarah, Exam Certs say Sorcha.

Incorrect translation, fake name.

It is illegal to change your name, is it not, without deed poll?

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

Or have named her Emma. FFS!!
.

Yup you should have! would have saved you all this hassle. you should re-name her now :pac:


seriously though Emma does seem to be the only name they won't change...i have no idea why though.


someone i know thought they had gotten away with Alexandrea, but they turned it into Alastríona.

Peregrinus

Shenshen wrote: »

You'll have to excuse a foreigner here, but is there actually an Irish equivalent of every single name on the planet?

Good question.

For this purpose, there's actually three classes of name:

1. Names which are etymologically related to names from other languages/cultures. Liam, for example, and William, come from the same root, as do Séamus and James. Eoin comes from the Latin Ioannes; Seán from the French Jean - both are related to John. Andrew and Andrias both come from the same Greek root. Máire, Muire and Mary all come ultimately from the Hebrew Maryam. And so on. There are a few cases of names in non-Irish languages which are traced to an Irish root; Fiachra is an indigenous Irish name which has been adapted into French, Italian and German variants. Neil would be a better-known example; it comes from the Irish Niall.

2. Indigenous Gaelic names which are etymologically unrelated to English names, but for which there is an established convention of correspondence. For example Tadhg is conventionally rendered into English as Timothy or Thaddeus, and vice versa; Somhairle as Samuel; Aoife as Eve or Eva. There are lots of these.

3. Names for which there is no etymological cognate or conventional substitute. The world is full of these; there are millions of Ravis in India, for example, who - no doubt to their lasting regret - cannot easily gaelicise their names. But such names are still relatively uncommon in Ireland.

Some names fall into two of these categories. Etymologically, te Irish/Scottish Domhnall is the origin of the English Donald, but it’s also the conventional translation of the Hebrew Daniel, with which it has no etymological connection.

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

Christened Sarah, Exam Certs say Sorcha.

Incorrect translation, fake name.

It is illegal to change your name, is it not, without deed poll?

no you can change it by use of common usage also.

MadsL

mitosis wrote: »

No, the name is not being changed, just the language. The name John, for example, means blessed by god, as does Sean, Jean or any other translation. The name has not been changed, just the language it is spoken in. Is the OP happy to have her address in Irish? Probably. The names are the same, but the language is different.

Also comes in handy when you want to sign on for two sets of benefits with a real name and then an "Irish" name. Plus the alternate spelling of the surname.

A fine tradition.

Peregrinus

suicide_circus wrote: »

So you think it is reasonable to put fake made up names on official documents?

All names are made up, suicide_circus. They don't grow on trees. People invent them.

robinph

mitosis wrote: »

No, the name is not being changed, just the language. The name John, for example, means blessed by god, as does Sean, Jean or any other translation. The name has not been changed, just the language it is spoken in. Is the OP happy to have her address in Irish? Probably. The names are the same, but the language is different.

John is not called Sean.

They may be considered common equivalents of each other in different languages, but they are not translations.

hoodwinked

MadsL wrote: »

Also comes in handy when you want to sign on for two sets of benefits with a real name and then an "Irish" name. Plus the alternate spelling of the surname.

A fine tradition.

nope, they can catch you if you try that....has to be a name in a language they can't understand to get away with that.

MadsL

hoodwinked wrote: »

no you can change it by use of common usage also.

The only way to officially record the change of your name is by executing a deed poll.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/changing_your_name_by_deed_poll.html

MadsL

hoodwinked wrote: »

nope, they can catch you if you try that....has to be a name in a language they can't understand to get away with that.

Yeah, nobody has ever done that and got away with it. Ever. Ever.