€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

Sofiztikated

I think anyone that gets paid more than me, shouldn't. Shure, its a well known fact that anyone can do any job, with 20 minutes training, an "induction" video, and a smoke break.

But noone would be able to do my job/course as its really difficult.

Is that about the gist of the thread?

Montroseee

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I think anyone that gets paid more than me, shouldn't. Shure, its a well known fact that anyone can do any job, with 20 minutes training, an "induction" video, and a smoke break.

But noone would be able to do my job/course as its really difficult.

Is that about the gist of the thread?

Negative, have a read Joe

true

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I think anyone that gets paid more than me, shouldn't. Shure, its a well known fact that anyone can do any job, with 20 minutes training, an "induction" video, and a smoke break.

But noone would be able to do my job/course as its really difficult.

Is that about the gist of the thread?

Negative. The gist of the thread is about consultants pay in this little inefficient, corrupt, bankrupt little IMF statelet under IMF control.

People generally accept that Germany is a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale, efficient planning etc. They are also the most successful exporting country in the world. And they are helping to bail us out. The thread is about greed in this counhtry, and how even 5 years after the bubble burst the incomprehensible greed of consultants, and why we should struggle to borrow off the "bank of last resort" and pay our consultants more that the 100k the likes of Germany pay their own consultants?

steddyeddy

Taco Chips wrote: »

Sure, that's very noble and altruistic of them. But how can you equally say that any consultant that doesn't work for a sub normal wage for his profession doesn't love the work that they do? Of course money is a factor for people. Desire to care for people should always be number one, but look if they can do the same job, which is treating sick people, in a different country for a better wage why shouldn't they take it. They're still helping people and fulfilling their duty.

Say a biochemist like yourself was offered two identical research topics. The first was at a great institution. Top conditions and a good wage. The other was at bad one where the staff were known to be mistreated and the wage was below the going rate. Are you telling me that in this case, where both jobs were the same that the biochemist should pick the ****ty job?

Well that's the thing, they are not snubbing a sh1tty wage or job. They are snubbing 11k a year.

I would pick the good job but it's not very often a choice which such clear divisions come up.

Taco Chips

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well that's the thing, they are not snubbing a sh1tty wage or job. They are snubbing 11k a year.

I would pick the good job but it's not very often a choice which such clear divisions come up.

They are snubbing the well known deplorable working conditions for doctors in the HSE. The only thing making them tolerable for most consultants up to now was the good wage. Now that it's no longer being offered there are no upsides to working for the HSE any more.

true

Taco Chips wrote: »

They are snubbing the well known deplorable working conditions for doctors in the HSE. The only thing making them tolerable for most consultants up to now was the good wage. Now that it's no longer being offered there are no upsides to working for the HSE any more.

Given that consultants wages are approximately double what they are in Germany and the UK, and if consultants here would not be happy with working for the same wages consultants work for in Germany and the UK, does'nt that mean we are totally incapable of governing ourselves? Do not forget its the likes of Germany and the UK which are lending us money to keep us going.

Our consultants looking for double what consultants get in Germany can be compared to the analogy of a begger expecting / demanding a standard of living double that of those who do run a proper house and throw coins in his cap.

ManMade

true wrote: »

Negative. The gist of the thread is about consultants pay in this little inefficient, corrupt, bankrupt little IMF statelet under IMF control.

People generally accept that Germany is a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale, efficient planning etc. They are also the most successful exporting country in the world. And they are helping to bail us out. The thread is about greed in this counhtry, and how even 5 years after the bubble burst the incomprehensible greed of consultants, and why we should struggle to borrow off the "bank of last resort" and pay our consultants more that the 100k the likes of Germany pay their own consultants?

Can we put a cap of 12 months on unemployment benefits too for people who worked for less than 30 months and a max of 24 months for anyone over that? Or is that too extreme? If we are going to follow germany why not go the whole hog? Up corporation tax for starts. We don't because you can't compare a macro economy of Germany, a G7 country to our island.

There has to be something wrong if German consultants don't flood here now for a 20% raise?

At the moment we can't even fill these positions offering 116k never mind 100k.

steddyeddy

Taco Chips wrote: »

They are snubbing the well known deplorable working conditions for doctors in the HSE. The only thing making them tolerable for most consultants up to now was the good wage. Now that it's no longer being offered there are no upsides to working for the HSE any more.

Well that's the thing from the position of a biochemist, geneticist, microbiologist, nueroscientist or any other life scientist this attitude stinks. 116K is still a fecking good wage for a job!

The current situation in medicine seems to be the junior doctors get treated terribly but the consultants have some sort of god complex. One of the scientists in ucd developed the test for BSE due to his work on prions. He doesn't have the attitude of some of these consultants.

Ireland has already lost Prof Bill Powderly, head of UCD’s medical school, and Prof Dermot Kelleher, dean of medicine at Trinity College, both of whom have well-funded research and international reputations. This pattern is set to continue. In addition to working long hours for the care of their patients, the vast majority of medical consultants educate students, nursing staff and paramedics; act as advocates for their patients; develop programmes and bring research grants to employ doctors and scientists; host international meetings, bringing income into Ireland; promote fundraising; and assist with administration including the developing HSE clinical programmes.

This is from the article posted above and mentions a prof of medicine I mentioned in an earlier post. The article got one thing right, he was exceptionally well funded. He and the Trinity fellow left because they were objecting to government funding being cut. All the while scientists with less funding in UCD are working on stuff that will make massive advances in medicine in the next ten years.

I know they work hard but having heard my lecturers come back shocked from having to deal with them on collaborations again and again I have to take them with a pinch of salt when they talk about their worth.

true

ManMade wrote: »

Can we put a cap of 12 months on unemployment benefits too for people who worked for less than 30 months and a max of 24 months for anyone over that? Or is that too extreme? If we are going to follow germany why not go the whole hog?.

this thread is about consultants pay. Yes we should of course cut other public expenditure too but why do you not set up a seperate thread for that?

ManMade wrote: »

There has to be something wrong if German consultants don't flood here now for a 20% raise?
.

Some continentals have come here and goit the cold shoulder from Irish consultants who like to operate a "closed shop", and do not take kindly to foreigners coming here and saying how our wages are very generous compared to Germany. Besides, leaving Germany to live in a damp island with a different language, culture, obvious corruption etc is not to everyones liking.

ManMade wrote: »

At the moment we can't even fill these positions offering 116k never mind 100k.

why not train more consultants so? Or insist consultants have to work in Ireland for a certain period after qualification, given the taxpayer invests so much in their training?

Odysseus

true wrote: »

Some continentals have come here and goit the cold shoulder from Irish consultants who like to operate a "closed shop", and do not take kindly to foreigners coming here and saying how our wages are very generous compared to Germany. Besides, leaving Germany to live in a damp island with a different language, culture, obvious corruption etc is not to everyones liking.

How you any evidence to back up this assertion? What consultants have been given the cold shoulder?

Grayson

kupus wrote: »

Whereas a doctor/consultant they have their guidelines on how to deal with operations, sickness, broken bones etc..procedures already in place. With a little variation of course, not everybody is the same.
So there is no real thinking involved. They are just following a set pattern. They show up, they do the job, go home. So no real plaudits or acknowledgements, So their primary motivating factor becomes a race to see who can get the most money among their colleagues.

You're a little bit right. there will be cases that are sent nto them because they are the only people qualified to give an answer. But most aren't like that. Remember, to see a consultant your case has to be escalated so you've already gone through all the basic checks. they're cases that others can't solve.

Also, you're not considering the actual work. A heart surgeon who's at consultant level will perform operations that only a select number of people in the world can do. It's not like a junior surgeon could do it. A&E doctors would be the same. They'd only get involved when the junior doctors haven't got the experience or expertise needed to do the job.

caroline1111

true wrote: »

this thread is about consultants pay. Yes we should of course cut other public expenditure too but why do you not set up a seperate thread for that?



Some continentals have come here and goit the cold shoulder from Irish consultants who like to operate a "closed shop", and do not take kindly to foreigners coming here and saying how our wages are very generous compared to Germany. Besides, leaving Germany to live in a damp island with a different language, culture, obvious corruption etc is not to everyones liking.






why not train more consultants so? Or insist consultants have to work in Ireland for a certain period after qualification, given the taxpayer invests so much in their training?

What is your obsession with Germany? Germany and Ireland are both in the EU, German consultants can come and work here if they want to, there is a reason that they don't.
Economies of scale have nothing to do with doctors, I think you think that there are more patients per doctor in Germany, is that what you are trying to say? I think you'll find it's the opposite.
You also can't comprehend the different conditions in hours and conditions between Ireland and other countries. Say if I am a post man working in Ireland for 30 hours a week and I have bad conditions eg only a bike to use instead of a car and I am paid say 1000 euro a week. If I move to Germany where I only work 20 hours a week and I have the use of a car but am only paid 800 euro a a week, does that mean German postmen are paid less than irish ones? No it doesn't.
Again you're falling into the trap of thinking that consultants are people just coming out of college, by the time they become consultants they have already worked in hospitals in Ireland for 15+ years and paid back for their education more than most other citizens. Why don't you say that say arts students can't emigrate either, after getting 4 years of education paid for by the government?

steddyeddy

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

No real thinking involved in being a consultant? Are you mad? You may think modern medicine involves nothing more than seeing patients on a conveyor belt and adopting quaint protocols with "little variation" but you're sorely mistaken. If a consultant makes just one slip of the scalpel, misses some slight radiolucency on a radiograph or misses something in the patient's medical history they could potentially be responsible for that person's death. Many can be, and frequently are, called at any hour of the day or night to come to the aid of a patient so their work week never ends. Compound this with the fact that it takes a bare minimum of 10 years of study, hard work and constant competition (for sh1t money compared to what lawyers and accountants their age are earning) I can assure you that a consultant is not someone in a race to earn money, but someone who is passionate about what they do, has made the sacrifices to get there and is being duly recompensed for their labour.

The work of research scientists has been invaluable to the field of medicine and human life in general. Every day they do great work to improve knowledge and human lives. In saying that the research scientist has a 9-5 job, a far less stressful and demanding path to becoming a research scientist and moreover someone's life is not in the balance every time he or she walks into work. That should, hopefully, go some way towards explaining the discrepancy between their salaries.

Hence I don't think you explained the situation correctly.

I don't think you are giving an accurate picture of research scientists at all. First of all the position usually requires at least ten years experience or more ie you need a phd.

It is so far away from a 9-5 job it isnt even funny to be honest. Do you think that the research the scientist i wrking on works within the bounds of 9-5?

true

caroline1111 wrote: »

What is your obsession with Germany? Germany and Ireland are both in the EU

I do not have an obsession with Germany. However I am aware that not only are Irish consultants paid double what German consultants are paid, but considerably more than most other consultants around the world too. And it may have escaped your notice that we are a bankrupt little country, and have been funded over the decades by Germany , the UK among others. If you have to pick who is our paymaster, the first one that springs to mind is Germany. We are currently borrowing 18 billion a year just to keep our public expenditure as high as it is. Shame on Germany lending our banks the money during the tiger era which they squandered on developers.
Shame on Germany and others lending our governments tens of millions per year now, which we squander on public expenditure - pay, pensions, dole, etc

ManMade

true wrote: »

this thread is about consultants pay. Yes we should of course cut other public expenditure too but why do you not set up a seperate thread for that?

Because I was commenting on a post which was telling us to copy German ways. Surely you can't pick and chose which german ways to copy like consultants pay and ignore other parts of the German economy

true wrote: »

Some continentals have come here and goit the cold shoulder from Irish consultants who like to operate a "closed shop", and do not take kindly to foreigners coming here and saying how our wages are very generous compared to Germany. Besides, leaving Germany to live in a damp island with a different language, culture, obvious corruption etc is not to everyones liking.

What closed shop?

true wrote: »

why not train more consultants so? Or insist consultants have to work in Ireland for a certain period after qualification, given the taxpayer invests so much in their training?

Because consultants start out as doctors and choose to specialise. Many (if not all) have to leave to get the experience required and return in their late thirties. We are failing to attract them back now because of pay and reasons you stated.

true

ManMade wrote: »

We are failing to attract them back now because of pay and reasons you stated.

some do come back, and why would'nt they. There are very few Irish consultants in Germany, on their average consultants pay of 100k. They could not hack it, what with the different language and all.
Its not surprising that Germany and the IMF would'nt mind us halving our consultants pay to bring it more in to line with international norms.

Ruudi_Mentari

€116,000 cigar being stubbed

dissed doc

true wrote: »

this thread is about consultants pay. Yes we should of course cut other public expenditure too but why do you not set up a seperate thread for that?



Some continentals have come here and goit the cold shoulder from Irish consultants who like to operate a "closed shop", and do not take kindly to foreigners coming here and saying how our wages are very generous compared to Germany.

What closed shop? Any EU-graduated consultant can work with full entitlements in Ireland since 2005 (EC 2005/36). All qualifications are automatically transferable between EU countries. This means that any consultant anywhere in the EU can apply to work in the HSE or open private practice in Ireland. There is no language requirement and no barrier to entry.

The level of self-important paranoia is huge in this thread; it's the inferiority complex couple with the island culture being unable to more accurately compare reality across the continent or countries.

Irish consultants paid more than god and every other person in the world? Check. (reality: Ireland pays salaries competitive to those in eastern europe and the third world, but not compared to Western Europe, UK, US/Canada, Aus/NZ).

Paranoid about a powerful closed shop? Check. Despire there being no restriction on work, and medical council being run by a majority of non-doctors directing it.

why not train more consultants so? Or insist consultants have to work in Ireland for a certain period after qualification, given the taxpayer invests so much in their training?

This comes up again and again, due to certain people presuming that there is some factory producing medical specialists; you read enough articles in a newspaper and you become an expert. There is in fact a considerable shortage of consultants in the world, it takes decades to train and it's a seller's market. Irish consultants care about the future of Irish healthcare and Irish citizens but at some point a line gets crossed and they realise the country and citizens do not reciprocate this.

What's happening is highly trained and highly intelligent people who can well anticipate future risks and benefits (that is the nature of the job) recognising that what takes decades to develop (highly skilled specialists who can then teach the next generation, etc., . ) can be torn down in a few days. There will be no recovery in Ireland of the healthcare training or clinical skills.

true

dissed doc wrote: »

There will be no recovery in Ireland of the healthcare training or clinical skills.

There will be no recovery in Ireland or our health system, or no recovery of the Irish economy, while the current situation exists where we pay our consultants double what they get in Germany for example, which is our paymaster. No wonder the IMF, Germany etc are telling our government to bring our consultants / top public service wages more in line with international norms. Shame on our consultants for being so greedy : it was this greed which fueled the celtic tiger and its time it was stamped out in our 200k a year consultant class.

opinion guy

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

theres probably a straight X needed per million population ratio for most areas.

Amazingly enough these kind of figures don't exist. The closet thing is for radiologists. To give you an idea I read (somewhere - I forgot where) that an Irish radiologist will read 60,000 xrays/scans/whatever in a year whilst internationally 40,000 is seen as the maximum safe level.
Such figures don't really exist for non-radiologists. There are workload metrics in the US - but those are all based around billing and charging patients and not about safety etc.

Taco Chips

true wrote: »

There will be no recovery in Ireland or our health system, or no recovery of the Irish economy, while the current situation exists where we pay our consultants double what they get in Germany for example, which is our paymaster. No wonder the IMF, Germany etc are telling our government to bring our consultants / top public service wages more in line with international norms. Shame on our consultants for being so greedy : it was this greed which fueled the celtic tiger and its time it was stamped out in our 200k a year consultant class.

You keep repeating this sound bite and it's not becoming any truer. The Irish and the German health care systems are not comparable on any level. We can certainly strive to change our system to emulate theirs but the first step is not the pay rates of medical specialists. Why do you continue to ignore the testimony of actual medical professionals in this thread? They are laying it out very clear the problems that exist. It's clear that your own prejudice is blinding you to any other opinion.

Solair

Montroseee wrote: »

A similar consultant in Germany will be doing well to ever break 100k, same story with the UK.

The Germans have suggested several times that we should just hire German or other EU doctors if ours are too expensive.

I don't know why we aren't doing that already!

Taco Chips

Solair wrote: »

The Germans have suggested several times that we should just hire German or other EU doctors if ours are too expensive.

I don't know why we aren't doing that already!

That point has been addressed already. No one wants to work in the Irish health system. The conditions are terrible. That's why they have to resort to recruiting African and East Asian doctors with promises of amazing lifestyles and pay rates, they soon learn better upon arriving.

Solair

Taco Chips wrote: »

That point has been addressed already. No one wants to work in the Irish health system. The conditions are terrible. That's why they have to resort to recruiting African and East Asian doctors with promises of amazing lifestyles and pay rates, they soon learn better upon arriving.

It's a bit of a catch 22 though. If the pay rates weren't so astronomically high, we could afford more staff resulting in far better conditions of employment.

What's going to happen if this is not dealt with soon is that the system will eventually just collapse completely.

We simply do not have the money to continue funding it this way.

I know it's about more than pay rates, but every attempt at serious reform is resisted and resisted.

It can't just go on like this and I think in there's a huge problem in the Irish health system with being unable to see past the status quo.

The system isn't fit for purpose, it's too expensive (especially when you consider the amount of patient funding that comes in from fees, charges and private healthcare)

If the system doesn't cut its bloat and become efficient then services will just get cut instead and that seems to he what we are seeing now.

There are too many vested interests and very little sensible planning or strategic management.

I think the system will probably have to implode before people realise just how seriously unsustainable this is!

Taco Chips

Solair wrote: »

It's a bit of a catch 22 though. If the pay rates weren't so astronomically high, we could afford more staff resulting in far better conditions of employment.

What's going to happen if this is not dealt with soon is that the system will eventually just collapse completely.

Perhaps. They could also hire more staff with less useless middle managers and exponentially improve care with proper structured working hours and training schemes for NCHDs but there seems to be an abject refusal to apply logical thinking in the HSE.

Icemancometh

opinion guy wrote: »

Amazingly enough these kind of figures don't exist. The closet thing is for radiologists. To give you an idea I read (somewhere - I forgot where) that an Irish radiologist will read 60,000 xrays/scans/whatever in a year whilst internationally 40,000 is seen as the maximum safe level.
Such figures don't really exist for non-radiologists. There are workload metrics in the US - but those are all based around billing and charging patients and not about safety etc.

There are metrics in terms of how many procedures surgeons should do. I read the breast cancer strategy a while back, and it think it recommended that surgeons should be doing 150 breast ops per year. I imagine there's similar for other surgical fields (ie certain number of hip replacements per year for orthopaedics). This probably relates more to competency than to staffing levels for a region, but I'm sure it could be applied if needs be.

true

Taco Chips wrote: »

That point has been addressed already. No one wants to work in the Irish health system.

Foreigners / continentals who come here and exclaim how our pay rates are double what they earn in their own countries are soon given the "cold shoulder" by their Irish workers. They are seen as a threat by the Irish people on incredibly high salaries here, who naturally want to protect their little club.

No wonder the IMF + Germany etc wants / insists on things channging. We are borrowing tens of billions a year just to keep things going as it is, and that is not sustainable. What a poor example our greedy consultants are giving to the youth of today.

The consultants in Germany are asking why are their efficient consultants paid so much less than the Irish consultants, who are being funded by bailouts/ loans from the IMF.

Taco Chips

true wrote: »

Foreigners / continentals who come here and exclaim how our pay rates are double what they earn in their own countries are soon given the "cold shoulder" by their Irish workers. They are seen as a threat by the Irish people on incredibly high salaries here, who naturally want to protect their little club.

Noi wonder the IMF + Germany etc wants / insists on things channging. We are borrowing tens of billions a year just to keep things going as it is, and that is not sustainable. What a poor example our greedy consultants are giving to the youth of today.

None of that is true. In fact you were asked to provide a source for your claim earlier and you still haven't, rather you just repeated your falsity. It seems to be a favourite debating technique in this thread.

caroline1111

true wrote: »

Foreigners / continentals who come here and exclaim how our pay rates are double what they earn in their own countries are soon given the "cold shoulder" by their Irish workers. They are seen as a threat by the Irish people on incredibly high salaries here, who naturally want to protect their little club.

No wonder the IMF + Germany etc wants / insists on things channging. We are borrowing tens of billions a year just to keep things going as it is, and that is not sustainable. What a poor example our greedy consultants are giving to the youth of today.

The consultants in Germany are asking why are their efficient consultants paid so much less than the Irish consultants, who are being funded by bailouts/ loans from the IMF.

I think you should become a consultant seen as its so easy and they're paid so much and move over to your beloved Germany

Odysseus

true wrote: »

Foreigners / continentals who come here and exclaim how our pay rates are double what they earn in their own countries are soon given the "cold shoulder" by their Irish workers. They are seen as a threat by the Irish people on incredibly high salaries here, who naturally want to protect their little club.

No wonder the IMF + Germany etc wants / insists on things channging. We are borrowing tens of billions a year just to keep things going as it is, and that is not sustainable. What a poor example our greedy consultants are giving to the youth of today.

The consultants in Germany are asking why are their efficient consultants paid so much less than the Irish consultants, who are being funded by bailouts/ loans from the IMF.

Again can you back this up? I have never seen anyone get the cold shoulder because they think we are over paid I don't see any staff stating we are all over paid.