€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

Taco Chips

true wrote: »

after the taxpayer paying a fortune to educate them for decades, from the age of 4, you would think they would show some little bit of patriotism and give something back to this country, when the country is on its knees...and work for say the same as a german consultant gets ie 100k a year. There are many consultants in the world - the vast majority - who work for 100k or less , so let them come and work here.

I can't tell if you are serious or not so I'm going to treat your post like it is.

So what about everyone else in the country who emigrates to better conditions? That would presumably include everyone who leaves the dole to get a job abroad. Sure they had their education paid for too correct?

The vast majority of medial consultants around the world most certainly do not work for 100k a year. Those that you have mentioned in Germany work in entirely different sets of working conditions and circumstances that aren't even close to being applicable in the HSE lead service here so you can rule that alternative out.

What is this expectation to sit in one place and accept suffering about? Why should they? They are some of the most highly educated, high expertise people in the state. Their skills are in demand all over the world and they can be properly paid for it. If Ireland would prefer to prioritise the pensions of bankers and politicians instead of meeting the market rate and conditions for it's doctors then it can reap it's reward in the form of shortages and loss of services. Don't expect them to hang around and put up with it. Why on earth should they? What a regressive attitude.

true

Traumadoc wrote: »

Patriotism?
A minute ago you wanted them to go work for Her Majesty - :roll eyes:

I actually wrote - in response to you looking for higher wages that the going rate in the EC or what we can afford : "Go and work in the UK so. A consultant there is paid nearly as much as Cameron their p.m. , so you'll be in good company. Held in high regards. We cannot afford to pay our consultants the 100k they would get in Germany, never mind the fortune they would get in the UK"


Just do not have the cheek to look for more wages in this bankrupt little country than consultants in Germany get, which is 100k a year.

Montroseee

Taco Chips wrote: »

I can't tell if you are serious or not so I'm going to treat your post like it is.

So what about everyone else in the country who emigrates to better conditions? That would presumably include everyone who leaves the dole to get a job abroad. Sure they had their education paid for too correct?

The vast majority of medial consultants around the world most certainly do not work for 100k a year. Those that you have mentioned in Germany work in entirely different sets of working conditions and circumstances that aren't even close to being applicable in the HSE lead service here so you can rule that alternative out.

What is this expectation to sit in one place and accept suffering about? Why should they? They are some of the most highly educated, high expertise people in the state. They're skills are in demand all over the world and they can be properly paid for it. If Ireland would prefer to prioritise the pensions of bankers and politicians instead of meeting the market rate and conditions for it's doctors then it can reap it's reward in the form of shortages and loss of services. Don't expect them to hang around and put up with it. Why on earth should they? What a regressive attitude.

O'Leary, Collins and Pearse are turning in their graves right now at your attitude.

Reality_Check1

true wrote: »

Just do not have the cheek to look for more wages in this bankrupt little country than consultants in Germany get, which is 100k a year.

I agree lets bring consultants wages in line with the Germans.

Oh wait better bring other areas in line too

imagine cutting the dole by that much - some cheek of them looking for nearly 200 quid a week in this broke little country

true

Taco Chips wrote: »

So what about everyone else in the country who emigrates to better conditions? That would presumably include everyone who leaves the dole to get a job abroad.

most people who emigrate do not have the option of getting jobs here at 100k or more. Average industrial wage in this country is only a fraction of that, about a third of that, and there are many hundreds of thousands of people in the country who would love a job on thirty something grand a year.

Taco Chips

steddyeddy wrote: »

To put things back on topic and make my input relevant I'll condense my views.

The reason this science stuff is being brought up is because of the various comments being thrown about for example "166k is nothing" and a lot of various comments that the consultants are right to snub the job because of the "crap" wages.

I was wondering is there any consultants who do the job who don't do it primarily for the money. The reasons given was that medicine students and doctors work extremely hard I agree but so do science graduates.

I think that someone interested in medical science should love a consultant position. I was saying there are people doing far more to eradicate disease for far less money and happy to do so. As long as the attitude exists that making a difference in our knowledge of disease is only important if the money is more than the 116k "nothing".

I am simply pointing out that not everyone in the business of curing diseases do it for large sums of money. The point remains that people who recently made breakthroughs in aids, diabetes, cancer and diseases of the nervous system have been scientists who were delighted to do it for less than 116kor nothing as it has been called. These people could be earning a lot more than research scientists depending on where they worked.

When I hear about people like Sir Paul Nurse who discovered cyclin dependent kinases (control the cell cycle and the cell cycle is extremely important in terms of cancer studies) say "everyday I wake up and cant believe I get paid to do something I love" It shows me who the real heros are.

Then I read about consultants who don't take up these jobs for nothing (116k) and it is sickening frankly. On one hand we have a guy who's research will make a difference to the lives of millions saying he's lucky to be paid at all and the next we have a consultant who wont even accept the job for the wage.

As I say they are doing it primarily for the money and in my view have no place in medical science.

Recently a medical researcher and professor of medicine left UCD in a huff saying that h couldn't work under conditions where funding was being cut. His work was nothing to write home about and he operated at higher funding than a lot of geneticists and biochemists anyway. As I said earlier I see that my mates in the health service work under slave labor conditions and that has to change but I cannot abide by consultants with a complete lack of passion for what they do.

Sure, that's very noble and altruistic of them. But how can you equally say that any consultant that doesn't work for a sub normal wage for his profession doesn't love the work that they do? Of course money is a factor for people. Desire to care for people should always be number one, but look if they can do the same job, which is treating sick people, in a different country for a better wage why shouldn't they take it. They're still helping people and fulfilling their duty.

Say a biochemist like yourself was offered two identical research topics. The first was at a great institution. Top conditions and a good wage. The other was at bad one where the staff were known to be mistreated and the wage was below the going rate. Are you telling me that in this case, where both jobs were the same that the biochemist should pick the ****ty job?

the_syco

Montroseee wrote: »

A similar consultant in Germany will be doing well to ever break 100k, same story with the UK.

What are the hours like? Same stupid hours with the same stupid rules?

Traumadoc

true wrote: »

I actually wrote - in response to you looking for higher wages that the going rate in the EC or what we can afford : "Go and work in the UK so. A consultant there is paid nearly as much as Cameron their p.m. , so you'll be in good company. Held in high regards. We cannot afford to pay our consultants the 100k they would get in Germany, never mind the fortune they would get in the UK"


Just do not have the cheek to look for more wages in this bankrupt little country than consultants in Germany get, which is 100k a year.

Why not link to what Dutch doctors get?

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/07/medical_specialists_face_salar.php

true

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

I agree lets bring consultants wages in line with the Germans.

Good. Because they are a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale. They are also the most successful exporting country in the world. And they are helping to bail us out. How very gracious of you to accept that we should borrow off them and only pay our consultants what they pay their own consultants.

Traumadoc

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

I agree lets bring consultants wages in line with the Germans.

Oh wait better bring other areas in line too

imagine cutting the dole by that much - some cheek of them looking for nearly 200 quid a week in this broke little country

Ah now Joe

Reality_Check1

Ah Im done with this thread it became very clear a long time ago that the "other" side had such poor arguments they had to resort to trolling least they would be uncovered as shams.

Thanks for listening Joe

Montroseee

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Ah Im done with this thread it became very clear a long time ago that the "other" side had such poor arguments they had to resort to trolling least they would be uncovered as shams.

Thanks for listening Joe

Many people seem to be unaware of the ridiculous working conditions being cited in this thread, I know I was. It certainly does put a different perspective on things when one backs away from the sensationalist headline, Joe.

take everything

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think that some scientists have a problem with the claim that medicine is far and away the most difficult course. The general view is that it's harder to get a doctorate of science than a doctorate of medicine.

During my phd I am required to do some tutoring and demonstrating. Since my qualification is as a biochemist I usually give tutorials in that or genetics. Some of those modules have medical students studying he biochemistry part of medicine and they say that biochemistry is one of the hardest parts of medicine.

If as people say they were doing science and found it easy compared to medicine then they weren't working hard enough frankly. Getting a doctorate in science is f-ing hard to say the least!

Medicine involves synthesizing all the stuff you learn in Biochem, Physiology, Anatomy, Pathology/Microbiology, Pharmacology and clinical skills (history and examination).
The problem-solving part (Medicine proper) is the thinking bit ie a hypothetico-deductive approach to converting a history and exam (with or without investigations) into a diagnosis (the raw material for this is the above).

So you got a vast amount of material to cover (haven't even mentioned Paeds, Obs/Gyne, Surgery and Psych btw) on the one hand plus the not insignificant problem-solving part (which is what clinical medicine is all about).

true

take everything wrote: »

Medicine involves synthesizing all the stuff you learn in Biochem, Physiology, Anatomy, Pathology/Microbiology, Pharmacology and clinical skills (history and examination).
The problem-solving part (Medicine proper) is the thinking bit ie a hypothetico-deductive approach to converting a history and exam (with or without investigations) into a diagnosis (the raw material for this is the above).

So you got a vast amount of material to cover (haven't even mentioned Paeds, Obs/Gyne, Surgery and Psych btw) on the one hand plus the not insignificant problem-solving part (which is what clinical medicine is all about).

Correct. Medicine does involve that. However, this thread is about the renumeration for this. Consultants in Germany do that too. I think we all can accept that Germany is a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale. A G7 nation. They are also the most successful exporting country in the world. And they are helping to bail us out. Can you tell me why - apart from greed, which we should have got rid of by now in this post celtic tiger bankrupt state - consultants here would look for more wages than consultants in Germany get, which is 100k a year?

take everything

true wrote: »

Correct. Medicine does involve that. However, this thread is about the renumeration for this. Consultants in Germany do that too. I think we all can accept that Germany is a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale. A G7 nation. They are also the most successful exporting country in the world. And they are helping to bail us out. Can you tell me why - apart from greed, which we should have got rid of by now in this post celtic tiger bankrupt state - consultants here would look for more wages than consultants in Germany get, which is 100k a year?

My post was in response specifically to Steddyeddy's comparison of courses.

The other stuff has been answered already.
Basically:
People can work where they like.
People want to work where pay and conditons are better.
Pretty simple tbh.

If pay and conditions are better here maybe the Germans will come over here.

dlouth15

Here's the EU report that I mentioned earlier.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/occasional_paper/2013/pdf/ocp127_en.pdf

From page 24:

Remuneration of medical staff should also be reviewed.

The high level of remuneration of doctors, in particular specialists, is another feature of Irish health spending which may warrant attention. OECD data show that Ireland's remuneration to medical specialists is well above the EU average (although some caution is required in making cross-country comparisons).

The authorities indicated that negotiations between the Department of Health / HSE and Hospital Consultants to achieve more efficiency from existing contractual arrangements have been recently completed and that the pay rate for newly appointed specialists will be cut by 30%. A comprehensive review of the market for medical staff could be considered, however, a some of the problem may lie in the low number of specialists as a proportion of all doctors.

[see attachment for graph]

There may be value in strategies to further open the supply of labour to suitably qualified specialists from other countries. For instance, from 2007 to 2011, Ireland recognised 151 intra-EU qualifications for doctors (per million inhabitants); for the UK it was 205 per million inhabitants. For doctors wishing to set up practice in Ireland, such recognition is a precondition. Outside the EU, even more potential exists to open labour supply; however, it is important that Ireland observes standards from the WHO's ethical recruitment code when pursuing recruitment from developing countries.

So it's not merely a bunch of Joe Duffy phoning begrudgers

Traumadoc

true wrote: »

I actually wrote - in response to you looking for higher wages that the going rate in the EC or what we can afford : "Go and work in the UK so. A consultant there is paid nearly as much as Cameron their p.m. , so you'll be in good company. Held in high regards. We cannot afford to pay our consultants the 100k they would get in Germany, never mind the fortune they would get in the UK"


Just do not have the cheek to look for more wages in this bankrupt little country than consultants in Germany get, which is 100k a year.

The German Specialists of which there are 187000 (vs 3000 here) earn far more than 100k - another false spin put out to suit the agenda.

true

its a far bigger country so there are a lot more than in this little country.

and if there are 187000 of them in that country alone, then its hardly rocket science, is it?
Surely you accept that Germany is a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale? They are also the most successful exporting country in the world. And they are helping to bail us out. Why should we should borrow off them and pay our consultants more that the 100k they pay their own consultants?

pragmatic1

take everything wrote: »

Medicine involves synthesizing all the stuff you learn in Biochem, Physiology, Anatomy, Pathology/Microbiology, Pharmacology and clinical skills (history and examination).
The problem-solving part (Medicine proper) is the thinking bit ie a hypothetico-deductive approach to converting a history and exam (with or without investigations) into a diagnosis (the raw material for this is the above).

So you got a vast amount of material to cover (haven't even mentioned Paeds, Obs/Gyne, Surgery and Psych btw) on the one hand plus the not insignificant problem-solving part (which is what clinical medicine is all about).

Your average life science undergrad will also study a diverse range of topics such spectrophotometry, bioinformats, microbiology, statistics, advanced immunology, toxicology, DNA technology, analytical chemistry, cell and tissue culture, etc.

At PhD level and beyond it involves a significant amount of effort for very little reward, financial or otherwise.

Traumadoc

dlouth15 wrote: »

Here's the EU report that I mentioned earlier.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/occasional_paper/2013/pdf/ocp127_en.pdf

From page 24:



So it's not merely a bunch of Joe Duffy phoning begrudgers

Not sure where they got those figures but interesting the figure for german specialist is exactly 100k

however this report gives a much more accurate representation.

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten-en-publicaties/rapporten/2012/10/04/remuneration-of-medical-specialists.html

ManMade

true wrote: »

its a far bigger country so there are a lot more than in this little country.

and if there are 187000 of them in that country alone, then its hardly rocket science, is it?
Surely you accept that Germany is a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale? They are also the most successful exporting country in the world. And they are helping to bail us out. Why should we should borrow off them and pay our consultants more that the 100k they pay their own consultants?

MINISTER FOR Health James Reilly has controversially and unfairly insisted upon further work practice reforms from medical consultants in addition to immediately reducing newly appointed consultants’ pay by 30 per cent.

In doing so he stated that the people of Ireland demanded and expected the implementation of the proposals regarding consultants set out last month by the Labour Relations Commission.
Rather than unfair unilateral proposals, however, the people of Ireland demand and expect that the Government and Ministers work fairly and effectively to provide value for money. This is not apparent in the Minister’s performance to date.

Changing the work practices of consultants without addressing other more relevant issues within the health service makes no sense. Consultants are an extremely hard-working, dedicated and flexible group.
In my hospital, the absentee rate for medics is 0.4 per cent compared to up to 5 per cent in general in the health service; in other words doctors go to work day and night and at weekends, even when ill. Every day, consultants look after patients in overcrowded clinics until late evening, battle to treat patients in overcrowded emergency departments, struggle to admit patients for elective surgery and fight for their patients to get necessary investigations and treatments.
Every night, consultants are called for advice on critically ill babies or elderly patients, perform emergency life-saving surgery or organ transplant surgery, insert cardiac stents for acute heart attacks or administer clot-busting drugs for stroke.

Every weekend, unpaid and unrostered consultants are in hospitals looking after their patients. This is because doctors take their professional responsibility to their patients seriously and care about their patients. They frequently work way beyond their contracted 37 hours per week.

Furthermore, administrative support is frequently fragmented or non-existent, with many consultants typing letters or reports. We are often asked to write repeated business cases to maintain pressurised services, never mind develop new services to match the many wonderful medical and scientific advances.

If the Minister’s sole purpose is to save money, why is it that all public servants earning over €100,000 per year, including the newly appointed Minister of State for Health, do not also have their salaries cut? I suspect many public servants earning over €100,000, including the much-criticised medical consultants, would accept a salary cut in the interests of the country. However, it seems this Government is unable or unwilling to tackle the “elephant in the room”– the Croke Park agreement.

If the Government had the courage of its convictions, it would look beyond the medical consultant contract and salary by urgently addressing the overall costs of the service.

Bureaucrats outnumber doctors six-to-one and many problems in the health service are due to top-heavy administration and management within the Department of Health and the Health Service Executive.
James Reilly also claims there is a general consensus among consultants that the LRC “deal” was reasonable. This is a baseless statement and there is no such consensus.

It is important to note that the 2008 consultant contract was never honoured and consultants took a 12-15 per cent cut in salary in 2010, with a further cut in 2011 leading to a net paycut of 22-25 per cent (not including the universal social charge or pension levies). The Minister’s proposal to change the contract again and decrease the salary by a further 30 per cent will be the death knell for the academic hospital consultant in Ireland.

Many consultants return to Ireland in their late 30s with 15 years of postgraduate training. They bring international experience and expertise. They will now stay abroad because of the restrictive inward-looking contract and non-competitive salary on offer.

Ireland has already lost Prof Bill Powderly, head of UCD’s medical school, and Prof Dermot Kelleher, dean of medicine at Trinity College, both of whom have well-funded research and international reputations. This pattern is set to continue. In addition to working long hours for the care of their patients, the vast majority of medical consultants educate students, nursing staff and paramedics; act as advocates for their patients; develop programmes and bring research grants to employ doctors and scientists; host international meetings, bringing income into Ireland; promote fundraising; and assist with administration including the developing HSE clinical programmes.

Notably, the Minister for Health has acknowledged that flexible work practices by consultants saved 70,000 bed days and €90 million for the HSE. Encouraging this entrepreneurial spirit is what is needed. This latest iteration of the consultant contract will suffocate it. Consultants remain ultimately responsible for patient care. They, not managers, are sued when things go wrong. This huge responsibility is shouldered by consultants but their authority to ensure patients are safely treated is being eroded. This heralds grim prospects for the health of Irish citizens.


-Prof Tim Lynch is a consultant neurologist and is clinical director of the Dublin Neurological Institute at the Mater
Hospital

Nearly all is relative.

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/changes-demanded-of-consultants-make-no-sense-1.557396?

take everything

At PhD level and beyond it involves a significant amount of effort for very little reward, financial or otherwise.

If it's unrewarding, could you try something else.
Or do it abroad if pay and/or conditons are better elsewhere.
Whatever you choose, i don't think you'll be criticised too much for doing so.

ArmaniJeanss

true wrote: »

The consultants here should work for less than the 100k they would get in a major developed industrialised nuclear power country with economy of scale like the UK or Germany. We certainly cannot afford to pay more than the going rate in those countries. Time they cop on.

true wrote: »

Correct. Medicine does involve that. However, this thread is about the renumeration for this. Consultants in Germany do that too. I think we all can accept that Germany is a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale.

true wrote: »

Surely you accept that Germany is a well organised, efficient modern country with economy of scale? They are also the most successful exporting country in the world. And they are helping to bail us out. Why should we should borrow off them and pay our consultants more that the 100k they pay their own consultants?

I think you are getting the concept of economy of scale backwards - surely because they have superior economy of scale vis a vis us then our consultants will be on a wage at least equal but much more likely larger than theirs.

In truth I'm not sure economy of scale for specialist staff when dealing with such large populations is relevant anyway - theres probably a straight X needed per million population ratio for most areas.

dlouth15

In fairness the 116K does seem adequate for the job.

A spokeswoman said there were 104 consultant posts advertised in 2012 and 21 were readvertised.

Of these 12 were for HSE West, four for Dublin North Leinster, four for Dublin mid-Leinster and one for HSE South.

Of the 21 posts readvertised, 17 are now progressing – filled or with candidates being vetted or interviewed. It is understood that some of the posts are filled, but not by full-time staff. The work is done by locum consultants on a contract instead.

What we see from this is that the vast majority of advertised posts do get filled with a just a small number being filled by locum staff or not filled. Of the original 1004, only 21 needed to be readvertised and most of these 21 are either filled or progressing in one way or another.

I think the recommendation of the EU Commission report for greater recognition intra-EU qualifications should solve the residual problems. Perhaps further effort also is needed to lower salaries of existing contract holders as it is unfair that some receive far more for the same work simply because they were in before the reductions were made.

I can, however, understand the frustration of medics expressed on this thread tonight. What was once a very lavish salary for new consultants is now much lower, though still high by European standards.

Traumadoc

21 being re-advertised does not mean the other 83 positions have been filled.

dlouth15

Traumadoc wrote: »

21 being re-advertised does not mean the other 83 positions have been filled.

I would say most of them probably have and the 21 being re-advertised because they weren't filled the first time.

Traumadoc

Many of the unfilled jobs have not yet been re-advertised. HSE never moves that fast.

dlouth15

Traumadoc wrote: »

Many of the unfilled jobs have not yet been re-advertised. HSE never moves that fast.

I would say that this is probably a small number otherwise they would have mentioned it in the article.

kupus

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

I do find this thread amusing though the same people who are giving out now about consultants leaving were the same ones who used the logic

"sher we'll cut their wages to 116k and if they dont like it they can leave there's plenty of doctors who will work for that"

Well news flash there isn't and they did in fact leave. Bet you feel silly now?

What will we do now Joe? Its terrible Joe!

The internet Liveline

Sorry to break it to you buddy, but yeah, no matter how good you are at your job. Any job for that matter. You are replaceable. Never forget that. Of course these are the little life lessons that school doesnt teach you.

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's that word again, begrudgery. People criticize whether someone is worth a certain salary and they are labeled begrudgers who should keep their mouths shut and not question their betters.

Science graduates can make top bracket wages but they would never bang on about 116k being nothing as it has been called in this thread.

Ok Im stupid, Im the first one to put my hand up and say it, but would a simplified version of what your saying is:
That scientists crave the attention of other scientists by making new ground breaking experiments that they spend a lot of time and energy on.
Basically a scientist has to think from the foundation upwards to the light at the top of the mast So getting one over the other scientists is a major motivating factor and getting published, awards, etc...., so the money aspect not feature so much.

Whereas a doctor/consultant they have their guidelines on how to deal with operations, sickness, broken bones etc..procedures already in place. With a little variation of course, not everybody is the same.
So there is no real thinking involved. They are just following a set pattern. They show up, they do the job, go home. So no real plaudits or acknowledgements, So their primary motivating factor becomes a race to see who can get the most money among their colleagues.

I dont know if ive explained it correctly?

Gordon Gecko

kupus wrote: »

Whereas a doctor/consultant they have their guidelines on how to deal with operations, sickness, broken bones etc..procedures already in place. With a little variation of course, not everybody is the same.
So there is no real thinking involved. They are just following a set pattern. They show up, they do the job, go home. So no real plaudits or acknowledgements, So their primary motivating factor becomes a race to see who can get the most money among their colleagues.

I dont know if ive explained it correctly?

No real thinking involved in being a consultant? Are you mad? You may think modern medicine involves nothing more than seeing patients on a conveyor belt and adopting quaint protocols with "little variation" but you're sorely mistaken. If a consultant makes just one slip of the scalpel, misses some slight radiolucency on a radiograph or misses something in the patient's medical history they could potentially be responsible for that person's death. Many can be, and frequently are, called at any hour of the day or night to come to the aid of a patient so their work week never ends. Compound this with the fact that it takes a bare minimum of 10 years of study, hard work and constant competition (for sh1t money compared to what lawyers and accountants their age are earning) I can assure you that a consultant is not someone in a race to earn money, but someone who is passionate about what they do, has made the sacrifices to get there and is being duly recompensed for their labour.

The work of research scientists has been invaluable to the field of medicine and human life in general. Every day they do great work to improve knowledge and human lives. In saying that the research scientist has a 9-5 job, a far less stressful and demanding path to becoming a research scientist and moreover someone's life is not in the balance every time he or she walks into work. That should, hopefully, go some way towards explaining the discrepancy between their salaries.

Hence I don't think you explained the situation correctly.