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Galway Man Wounded by Israeli Soldier. (rubber bullet)

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    #152
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    Nodin wrote: »
    That's your opinion. Hamas, despite the state they're in, point to the fact that they are (a) no longer occupied and (b) no longer being colonised. It makes rather a stark contrast to Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank etc.

    This was achieved using the death penalty and the murder of suspected informants and civilians was it?

    Following that logic, are commission of human rights abuses and war crimes is acceptable as long as Hamas objectives are achieved?

    Would this forgiving approach also be applied to Israels many crimes?


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    #153
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Airitech wrote: »
    This was achieved using the death penalty and the murder of suspected informants and civilians was it? ?

    It may well have been. Dealing with colloborators is one of the nastier parts of this kind of conflict.
    Airitech wrote: »
    Following that logic, are commission of human rights abuses and war crimes is acceptable as long as Hamas objectives are achieved

    No, obviously there's limits. Nor would I say that all of Hamas goals are desirable.
    Airitech wrote: »
    Would this forgiving approach also be applied to Israels many crimes?


    Why would it? Given that all legal avenues have been closed, the establishment of a Palestinian state and the end of occupation are perfectly valid grounds for armed struggle. Colonialism and expansionism, on the other hand, are discredited practices that have no place in the modern world. There is no justification for anything done to further such aims.


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    #154
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    Nodin wrote: »
    It may well have been. Dealing with colloborators is one of the nastier parts of this kind of conflict.



    No, obviously there's limits. Nor would I say that all of Hamas goals are desirable.




    Why would it? Given that all legal avenues have been closed, the establishment of a Palestinian state and the end of occupation are perfectly valid grounds for armed struggle. Colonialism and expansionism, on the other hand, are discredited practices that have no place in the modern world. There is no justification for anything done to further such aims.

    I'm sure all those alleged collaborators were afforded due process.

    Firing rockets at civilians and suicide bombings at bus stops isn't an armed struggle any more than leaving bombs in pubs and shopping centres was in Northern Ireland. They are war crimes.

    If you're ok with murders in pursuit of a greater goal there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but I don't think any life should be considered expendable.


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    #155
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Airitech wrote: »
    ................

    If you're ok with murders in pursuit of a greater goal there's nothing I can say to change your mind, but I don't think any life should be considered expendable.


    I'd just add you don't seem too exercised about Palestinian life ended in pursuit of a fundamentally wrongful goal.


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    #156
    Airitech
    Closed Accounts Posts: 158 ✭✭Airitech


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'd just add you don't seem too exercised about Palestinian life ended in pursuit of a fundamentally wrongful goal.

    You don't seem to be too exercised by Palestinian deaths unless they are at the hands of Israel.

    i was talking about actions by the Palestinian side, not what Israel has done. If you look back through this thread I have referred to Israeli crimes and Israeli wrongs, not as explicit as you'd like but it's there.

    Any more whataboutery?


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    #157
    The Saint
    Registered Users Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭The Saint


    Siuin wrote: »
    This Galway guy is nothing more than a pathetic geriatric whose only hope at gaining an ounce of fame is to throw himself into someone else's conflict rather than actually doing something useful like trying to improve our lot at home.
    Didn't you volunteer with the IDF when you were in Israel?


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    #158
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    The Saint wrote: »
    Didn't you volunteer with the IDF when you were in Israel?
    Yes, and I am Jewish- my people, my conflict. FYI I also have family and friends over there. Pity I can't say the same for this Galway loser.


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    #159
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Siuin wrote: »
    Yes.......

    So

    Going over to protest against illegal occupation = bad, mind your own business, stay at home, be quiet.

    Going over to aid the forces thats doing the whole illegal occupying thing = Yay, Happy-happy Joy, joy.


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    #160
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Siuin wrote: »
    Yes, and I am Jewish- my people, my conflict. ........

    Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity, last I checked. And I'm reasonably sure you once stated you were given a hard time by some because you weren't Jewish.


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    #161
    Yitzhak Rabin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    Nodin wrote: »
    Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity, last I checked. And I'm reasonably sure you once stated you were given a hard time by some because you weren't Jewish.

    It's both, and I'm sure you're aware of that fact.


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    #162
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Nodin wrote: »
    So

    Going over to protest against illegal occupation = bad, mind your own business, stay at home, be quiet.

    Going over to aid the forces thats doing the whole illegal occupying thing = Yay, Happy-happy Joy, joy.

    Not sure if I should even reply to such a childish post, but all the same... I must firstly mention that I'm personally not in favour of the settlements in the West Bank. However I view the continuation of settlement building as a political and not a military issue. I aided the IDF because I'm a Zionist and I believe in maintaining a Jewish presence in the land of Israel. I also believe in creating to the greater good of the Jewish community. That doesn't mean that I take onboard every single decision made by the Israeli government- believe it or not, Israelis do not simply operate with one homogeneous mind.

    I don't believe that these kinds of outside agitators help anyone- Israelis OR Palestinians. All they do is stoke the fire of a pre-existing conflict so that they can play the game and get a little thrill out of it all. Real progression will only be made if Israelis and Palestinians are truly willing to bring about the changes which are necessary. Internationals like the Galway dude only act to inflame the situation and add to feelings of bitterness and resentment. The more internationals butt into the conflict, the more convinced Israel will become that the world is against them and the more they will exist upon flying in the face of international opinion. The goal is not to create an atmosphere of 'them' versus 'us', it's to engender a feeling of mutual desire to live quiet and peaceful lives.


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    #163
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Nodin wrote: »
    Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity, last I checked. And I'm reasonably sure you once stated you were given a hard time by some because you weren't Jewish.

    I'm not going to go into the details on a public forum, but those people did not recognise me as Jewish due to mixed parentage, despite the fact that I very much see myself as a Jew.


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    #164
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »
    It's both, and I'm sure you're aware of that fact.


    No, it can be both, but not nessecarily so.


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    #165
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    siuin wrote:
    Not sure if I should even reply to such a childish post, but all the same... I must firstly mention that I'm personally not in favour of the settlements in the West Bank. However I view the continuation of settlement building as a political and not a military issue.
    .
    How did you come to that conclusion?
    siuin wrote:
    I aided the IDF because I'm a Zionist and I believe in maintaining a Jewish presence in the land of Israel. I also believe in creating to the greater good of the Jewish community. That doesn't mean that I take onboard every single decision made by the Israeli government- believe it or not, Israelis do not simply operate with one homogeneous mind..

    If you aid an army of occupation, you aid the occupation.

    I'm aware that the Israeli and Jewish populations have more than one mind. I've pointed that out on a number of threads, some of which you've posted one.
    siuin wrote:
    ......., it's to engender a feeling of mutual desire to live quiet and peaceful lives.

    I find it hard to see how its possible to do that while maintaining a colonial policy.


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    #166
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    Had to Google the word "remonstrated" which was used in the ops linked article.


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    #167
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Siuin wrote: »
    Yes, and I am Jewish- my people, my conflict. FYI I also have family and friends over there. Pity I can't say the same for this Galway loser.

    Are you Irish or Israeli? Because if you're Irish, then it ain't "your conflict".
    Religion is irrelevant.


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    #168
    belcampprisoner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 698 ✭✭✭belcampprisoner


    reminds me of northern ireland


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    #169
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    kraggy wrote: »
    Are you Irish or Israeli? Because if you're Irish, then it ain't "your conflict".
    Religion is irrelevant.
    I completely disagree- any Jew or person of Jewish grandparents is entitled to be an Israeli- I am getting my citizenship next year and have vested interests in the country due to friends and family living there. It's not as clear cut as you would like to portray.
    Nodin wrote: »
    How did you come to that conclusion?

    If you aid an army of occupation, you aid the occupation.

    I'm aware that the Israeli and Jewish populations have more than one mind. I've pointed that out on a number of threads, some of which you've posted one.

    I find it hard to see how its possible to do that while maintaining a colonial policy.
    The army is merely a tool of the government- the government decides what agenda to pursue and they simply deal with it. I find it so amusing how you can be so damning of Israel while only a few posts ago dismissed Hamas' actions of using violence to achieve their aims as 'perfectly valid.' Just goes to show the sickening double standard which exists for people like you.


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    #170
    Spanish Harlem
    Site Banned Posts: 99 ✭✭Spanish Harlem


    Two relevant news stories I was reading on the BBC this morning...

    A glimpse of a future Palestinian state. Run by a terrorist organisation, segregation of boys and girls (children!) by law, men banned from cutting women's hair...A liberal's wet dream, I'm sure.

    Syria...I'm sure the hippy flotilla is currently on it's way to save the day. Galway's hardman will be on board updating his twitter and instagramming photos.


  • Options
    #171
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Siuin wrote: »
    I completely disagree- any Jew or person of Jewish grandparents is entitled to be an Israeli- I am getting my citizenship next year and have vested interests in the country due to friends and family living there. It's not as clear cut as you would like to portray."

    you remind me of the rich Irish American's who'd donate money to fund the IRA. Plastic paddies who just enflamed the whole situation without putting in much thought about the gravity of their actions.


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    #172
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Principal Skinner wrote: »
    They were caught on video attacking them with sticks and knives......

    The only reason these do-gooders go to Israeli controlled places is because they know the Israelis won't purposefly harm them unless provoked. Why don't these people ever go to Syria or Iran or North Korea?

    Defending themselves from an illegal boarding of their ships in international water?

    How very dare they!


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    #173
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,741 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Ugh this thread has gotten to the impossible to avoid stage of every debate regarding israel and palestine where both sides sound as unreasonable and dogmatic as the other and both look equally as awful


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    #174
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Siuin wrote: »
    Not sure if I should even reply to such a childish post, but all the same... I must firstly mention that I'm personally not in favour of the settlements in the West Bank. However I view the continuation of settlement building as a political and not a military issue. I aided the IDF because I'm a Zionist and I believe in maintaining a Jewish presence in the land of Israel. I also believe in creating to the greater good of the Jewish community. That doesn't mean that I take onboard every single decision made by the Israeli government- believe it or not, Israelis do not simply operate with one homogeneous mind.

    I don't believe that these kinds of outside agitators help anyone- Israelis OR Palestinians. All they do is stoke the fire of a pre-existing conflict so that they can play the game and get a little thrill out of it all. Real progression will only be made if Israelis and Palestinians are truly willing to bring about the changes which are necessary. Internationals like the Galway dude only act to inflame the situation and add to feelings of bitterness and resentment. The more internationals butt into the conflict, the more convinced Israel will become that the world is against them and the more they will exist upon flying in the face of international opinion. The goal is not to create an atmosphere of 'them' versus 'us', it's to engender a feeling of mutual desire to live quiet and peaceful lives.

    So the international community needs to "butt out" of the conflict?

    Does that mean that the US should stop giving Israel $8million per day in military aid and remove the €30billion plidged over the next decade?

    I think that's a great idea as well, in fairness.
    The US has it's own **** to deal with, there is still the aftermath of 2 hurricanes which haven't been cleaned up, I'm sure the US tax payer will be delighted they won't be funding war crimes and ethnic cleansing instead of looking after themselves first.


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    #175
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Spanish Harlem wrote: »
    Two relevant news stories I was reading on the BBC this morning...

    A glimpse of a future Palestinian state. Run by a terrorist organisation, segregation of boys and girls (children!) by law, men banned from cutting women's hair...A liberal's wet dream, I'm sure.

    Syria...I'm sure the hippy flotilla is currently on it's way to save the day. Galway's hardman will be on board updating his twitter and instagramming photos.


    First of all Hamas don't control all of Palestine, they control Gaza, and only because the US and Israel tried to force them out of the Palestinian Unity Government, which lead to them leaving said unity government and cutting ties with the PA and Abbas and Duwaik. the populaton of Gaza is smaller than the population of the west bank, Hamas has next to no following in the west bank, in the event of a Free Palestinian state, Hamas would not be in power, ever. In fact, with a free Palestinian state, the need for Hamas to exist in the minds of Palestinian people ends and Hamas no longer has any influence.

    Second of all, you need to look into the history of Hamas, especially from the early to mid 90's and see where their money came from, who armed them and who promoted them as an alternative to the PLO, what you find might not sit well with you.


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    #176
    Spanish Harlem
    Site Banned Posts: 99 ✭✭Spanish Harlem


    Seaneh wrote: »
    First of all Hamas don't control all of Palestine, they control Gaza, and only because the US and Israel tried to force them out of the Palestinian Unity Government, which lead to them leaving said unity government and cutting ties with the PA and Abbas and Duwaik. the populaton of Gaza is smaller than the population of the west bank, Hamas has next to no following in the west bank, in the event of a Free Palestinian state, Hamas would not be in power, ever. In fact, with a free Palestinian state, the need for Hamas to exist in the minds of Palestinian people ends and Hamas no longer has any influence.

    Second of all, you need to look into the history of Hamas, especially from the early to mid 90's and see where their money came from, who armed them and who promoted them as an alternative to the PLO, what you find might not sit well with you.

    Umm thanks for answering a question that nobody asked. I'm aware of the history of Hamas/Gaza (most obese population on Earth) and Fatah/West Bank.

    I guess you're never going to answer this question though.
    The only reason these do-gooders go to Israeli controlled places is because they know the Israelis won't purposefly harm them unless provoked. Why don't these people ever go to Syria or Iran or North Korea?


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    #177
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    I've been to Syria, Damascus was lovely.

    And I retorted the idea that Hamas will be the ruling power of a future palestinian state, that is nonsense, clearly.


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    #178
    Spanish Harlem
    Site Banned Posts: 99 ✭✭Spanish Harlem


    Cool. Did you upload the photos to FaceBook?


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    #179
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Spanish Harlem wrote: »
    Cool. Did you upload the photos to FaceBook?

    Yeah, I planked on Bashar al-Assad's head, got 213 likes and 14 comments.


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    #180
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Siuin wrote: »
    I completely disagree- any Jew or person of Jewish grandparents is entitled to be an Israeli- I am getting my citizenship next year and have vested interests in the country due to friends and family living there. It's not as clear cut as you would like to portray.

    I have an uncle in America. He's Catholic. I was raised a Catholic. If the US and North Korea go to war, it's not my conflict. Not even close.

    The whole thing about Jewish people from all corners of the globe being entitled to a passport does not make it non-Israeli Jews' conflict. That's just a ridiculous and unique arrangement whereby the Jewish Israeli population gets artificially inflated with Jewish passport-holders whose only experience of living Israel was on a 2 week summer holiday during college, while the Palestinians, who have been living there all their lives, are deprived of their own nationhood and their own land.


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    #181
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    And boards descends into its usual biased rhetoric :rolleyes: It's impossible to compare Catholics in America to Jews in Israel- they have completely different histories, different citizenship laws and tbh using such an example givenis pretty telling of how little people here actually understand of the situation in Israel.

    But yes, continue to chase your tails- I have packing to do for a flight to Israel tomorrow morning :)


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