SF to refund property tax

hyperborean

darkhorse wrote: »

The only one's who are economically illiterate are the one's who think any of this family home tax is actually staying in this country.

The SF mantra, emotive nonsense.

Let me explain the economy in simple terms,

We(the residents of the 26 counties) are spending more money than we collect in tax, to fill this gap we are currently borrowing of other people.

These people have advised us that if we want to suck from their nipples going forward we have to show that we have an appetite to reduce our over spending and somehow bridge the gap with social contributions. Increased tax is the main method for this and as the only modern European economy without a property tax it was obvious that this would be one area were revenue could be raised.

The last democratically elected governments of this country made some very serious mistakes which contributed to this deficit but its the citizens that placed the politicians in charge and so they should bear the burden.

darkhorse

hyperborean wrote: »

How is the property tax the same as income tax?

Because they both come out of the same earned income?

hyperborean

darkhorse wrote: »

Because they both come out of the same earned income?

lol, very good.

monkeypants

GRMA wrote: »

Oh dear, mask slips once you say that.

What mask is that?

Phill Ewinn

hyperborean wrote: »

The SF mantra, emotive nonsense.

Let me explain the economy in simple terms,

We(the residents of the 26 counties) are spending more money than we collect in tax, to fill this gap we are currently borrowing of other people.

These people have advised us that if we want to suck from their nipples going forward we have to show that we have an appetite to reduce our over spending and somehow bridge the gap with social contributions. Increased tax is the main method for this and as the only modern European economy without a property tax it was obvious that this would be one area were revenue could be raised.

The last democratically elected governments of this country made some very serious mistakes which contributed to this deficit but its the citizens that placed the politicians in charge and so they should bear the burden.

Are you going to acknowledge all sensible economics or just the economics that suits you. The place is broke, the people are broke too. Businesses are failing because of austerity measures like property tax.

If you honestly believe that loading a tax on property while ignoring low corporate tax rates and resource wealth will be some kind of cure for a shortfall in the tax take you are wrong.

Asking the average worker to pay for absolutely everything is not working and will not work. Other countries fund services from a variety of resources. We're using one. The taxpayer.

Merch

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Does half the population here not have GP cards at least? (caught the end of a conversation on the radio a couple of weeks back and think the figure was given at around 50%)

I dont know what the number is, but its easy to not fit the criteria but still have no disposable cash for GP, been to a GP once in about 4 years I think, other than the once I cant recal when I was at a GP, €50 is too much if you even had it.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Try not to be such a smart arse when you can't even grasp simple terms. Your home would generate money, therefore it's an asset. It wouldn't make a profit, buti t would still generate money.

Sorry, how does it generate money? where is it, if I fcuking knew that Id have started looking for it, where is it coming from, I've searched the place top to bottom.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

"How do they expect someone with assets of €300k+ to pay €500?"
:rolleyes:

Asset on paper? now turn that into real money, oh no, they cant, maybe it cant be sold or maybe they are elderly and have no income, a house isn't just going to turn into a liquid asset, so explain please how a paper value of anything turns into actual cash? (did someone say 300k? I just read the whole thread?)

ScumLord wrote: »

I was hoping SF would be an alternative.

There will be absolutely no one for me to vote for in any upcoming elections. I don't see how I could ever trust FF, FG or labour. I usually vote for the local independent because at least you'll have someone that will fight your corner. There is no legitimate national agenda and every penny the local guy can divert to local causes and away from the black hole that is Dublin is a good thing in my books.

I agree with vote an independant, the rest, jesus wept.

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Well then keep it in the family and pay the tax himself! If the house is so dear to someone, then pay the tax. It will be passed on when they are gone, making it a familial asset - i.e. chunk of wealth. Why should that wealth be untaxed for all these years?

Unless that can be turned into cash, where is the wealth? thats what was left after they were TAXED, after they paid for everything, why should it now be taxed AGAIN, doubly or greater so??? Its an asset if its a second or greater number property, the home is a home, if its an asset, its the reward for working and saving and paying over years. Besides not many jobs out there, so not many mortgages going, equals no sell house-o, it costs money to run a house so Id say thats a deficit.
Just make it a family asset, easy peasy, assuming any children have the money to even fund their own property? or if none, even able to cover their own costs.

hyperborean wrote: »

The last democratically elected governments of this country made some very serious mistakes which contributed to this deficit but its the citizens that placed the politicians in charge and so they should bear the burden.

That they did make mistakes, well most people worked hard and didnt see the benefits, while the incompetent and corrupt laid waste to the country.
To hell with getting a tax back, how about a new Govt gets voted in on a national agenda of cutting costs, particularly waste in Govt, CoCo, politicians pensions that are being paid out to people that made the decisions that sunk this country or how about prison time for corruption and loss of pension/benefits?, it wont save the desired cash but it might make people think twice before they make decisions that help a few and screw the the country and everyone else for generations.

K-9

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Are you going to acknowledge all sensible economics or just the economics that suits you. The place is broke, the people are broke too. Businesses are failing because of austerity measures like property tax.

If you honestly believe that loading a tax on property while ignoring low corporate tax rates and resource wealth will be some kind of cure for a shortfall in the tax take you are wrong.

Asking the average worker to pay for absolutely everything is not working and will not work. Other countries fund services from a variety of resources. We're using one. The taxpayer.

Ok, the problem I have with SF is they are starting to ditch their staunch, hard left policies and moving to the centre.

An example is their 30% tax rate on corporates is actually a huge tax cut from their previously stated position, and nothing makes me think they'll not have a lower rate in their next manifesto.

Our 12.5% rate has somehow become a nationalistic badge of honour, I agree with you when you suggest a small rise in that rate wouldn't do much harm and would probably work.

Unfortunately SF bought into auction politics in the last 2 elections. They've gone from a staunch hard left party to one that is making big steps towards the centre in those 2 elections.

I remember the Labour party in the 80's, would make SF look New Labour now.

squod

K-9 wrote: »

Our 12.5% rate has somehow become a nationalistic badge of honour, I agree with you when you suggest a small rise in that rate wouldn't do much harm and would probably work.

You wish we were getting 12.5%. 4% or less is the average paid AFAIK.

squod

Merch wrote: »

........ the incompetent and corrupt laid waste to the country.
To hell with getting a tax back, how about a new Govt gets voted in on a national agenda of cutting costs, particularly waste in Govt, CoCo, politicians pensions that are being paid out to people that made the decisions that sunk this country or how about prison time for corruption and loss of pension/benefits?, it wont save the desired cash but it might make people think twice before they make decisions that help a few and screw the the country and everyone else for generations.

^
This.

Put the bastards in jail, then ask me to pay some nonsense tax.

K-9

squod wrote: »

You wish we were getting 12.5%. 4% or less is the average paid AFAIK.

So the oft quoted lower French rate is nonsense.

hyperborean

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Are you going to acknowledge all sensible economics or just the economics that suits you. The place is broke, the people are broke too. Businesses are failing because of austerity measures like property tax.

If you honestly believe that loading a tax on property while ignoring low corporate tax rates and resource wealth will be some kind of cure for a shortfall in the tax take you are wrong.

Asking the average worker to pay for absolutely everything is not working and will not work. Other countries fund services from a variety of resources. We're using one. The taxpayer.

3 paragraphs, over 100 words and not thing said....this is why people laugh at sinn fein's online army

R0ot

Robbo wrote: »

And the auction politics for the next election begins...

You are implying it didn't begin from the beginning of the founding of FG and FF parties....

Cabaal

So, what are they going to fund this refund with?

The pension reserve fund, the same fund they've used for every other idea they've came up with
Perhaps the funds from the northern bank robbery which they had nothing to do with.

Cheap lie by SF, only fools would believe this.

Like the money from house sales the country will become dependent on the money from the property tax, to suddenly remove it in 2-3 years time would mean the country would have a shortfall in its budgets that will need to be filled with a different tax or more cuts. (take your pick!).

Curious if SF are so against the property tax why don't they refund the council tax in northern ireland as this is effectively the same thing, perhaps they should offer to refund this first to show they don't depend on such tax's to run a government?

Banjo String

Cabaal wrote: »

So, what are they going to fund this refund with?

The pension reserve fund, the same fund they've used for every other idea they've came up with
Perhaps the funds from the northern bank robbery which they had nothing to do with.

Cheap lie by SF, only fools would believe this.

Like the money from house sales the country will become dependent on the money from the property tax, to suddenly remove it in 2-3 years time would mean the country would have a shortfall in its budgets that will need to be filled with a different tax or more cuts. (take your pick!).

Curious if SF are so against the property tax why don't they refund the council tax in northern ireland as this is effectively the same thing, perhaps they should offer to refund this first to show they don't depend on such tax's to run a government?

First off, I think it was a pretty daft statement they made, and a promise that will be very unlikely to ever be fulfilled.

Just in your property tax statement in the north. You are not comparing like for like.
Yet again, i would like someone (you) to provide a list of services provided with rates in the north.

Then provide a list we will get with ours.

Let's say a three bed property in rural County Derry.

Rates, £800 (€930+/-)
Schools fees, GP/hospital appointments paid for, refuse collection, an actual car tax that repairs roads (not a central fund like ours)

Now take a rural house in County Louth, property tax, €430
Still has the education fees, doctor fees, still pay a motor tax that's way higher in comparison to the north (and gets lumped into the same place the lpt is going) and they get the added luxury of tolled roads into the bargain.

Throw in stamp duty paid, and VRT,

Can you justify that?

I cannot.

Crooked Jack

Cabaal wrote: »

So, what are they going to fund this refund with?

The pension reserve fund, the same fund they've used for every other idea they've came up with
Perhaps the funds from the northern bank robbery which they had nothing to do with.

Oh God, grow up.

Cabaal wrote: »

Cheap lie by SF, only fools would believe this.

Yeah, it's not at all possible that we have a principled party in Ireland willing to actually do something to back up their rhetoric. After 90 years of FF and FG i can understand your cynicism.

Cabaal wrote: »

Like the money from house sales the country will become dependent on the money from the property tax, to suddenly remove it in 2-3 years time would mean the country would have a shortfall in its budgets that will need to be filled with a different tax or more cuts. (take your pick!).

The point, as Sinn Fein have consistently pointed out, is that there are plenty of other taxes and cuts that can be made that don't target already struggling families yet again.

Cabaal wrote: »

Curious if SF are so against the property tax why don't they refund the council tax in northern ireland as this is effectively the same thing, perhaps they should offer to refund this first to show they don't depend on such tax's to run a government?

This has been spewed out by a few posters thinking they're making some sort of great point but all it really does is highlight their ignorance about what council rates are and what services they go to provide. But sure hey, who needs facts when you have a snappy sound bite.

melekalikimaka

darkhorse wrote: »

The only one's who are economically illiterate are the one's who think any of this family home tax is actually staying in this country.

you lose any weight behind an arguement when you rename the issue to pull on heart strings, its a clear sight on the outset the arguement is weak and needs padding

Cabaal

SamHall wrote: »

Then provide a list we will get with ours.

Its not going to match as the money isn't spend in the exact same way, but it is none the less a tax the government gets to use towards services in the country. Would you not agree?

If we want like with like then perhaps for starters Ireland should drop jobseekers to equal what the uk give people. Then the saved money can be put towards other services such as those that you have mentioned

I'm sure people would be happy with jobseekers that can be more then half of what they'll get in Ireland. Don't you think? No?

Banjo String

Cabaal wrote: »

Its not going to match as the money isn't spend in the exact same way, but it is none the less a tax the government gets to use towards services in the country. Would you not agree?

Yes, but the rates system is services paid for upfront on a yearly basis (essentially)
They do not have to choose between a G. P visit, or a few bits and pieces for the cupboard from tesco some weeks.
They don't have to pay for a refuse collection.
They do not have school book fees

(i could go on if you want me to?)

Cabaal wrote: »

If we want like with like then perhaps for starters Ireland should drop jobseekers to equal what the uk give people. Then the saved money can be put towards other services such as those that you have mentioned

You are the one that attempted to compare .'like for like 'with your property tax in the north statement. As for your 'saved money' statement, this is Ireland.
The money will be wasted, or thrown into a black hole somewhere, it'll certainly be very hard to trace for certain where it went.

If the govt are genuine in this cost saving exercise, how come they haven't led by example?

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm sure people would be happy with jobseekers that can be more then half of what they'll get in Ireland. Don't you think? No?

Job seekers allowance is higher in Ireland why exactly?
Would it be because the overall cost of living here is higher?

Overflow

Technoprisoner wrote: »

the difference being that the property tax in other country's pays for bins to be emptied and other services to be provided...what do we get for our property tax?

Your absolutely correct, well in Norway anyway.

We pay a community tax for the area we live in, this is our 'property tax' it pays for bin collection, water and waste. Works pretty well over here, the services are excellent and not many complain.

SamHall

SamHall wrote: »

First off, I think it was a pretty daft statement they made, and a promise that will be very unlikely to ever be fulfilled.

Just in your property tax statement in the north. You are not comparing like for like.
Yet again, i would like someone (you) to provide a list of services provided with rates in the north.

Then provide a list we will get with ours.

Let's say a three bed property in rural County Derry.

Rates, £800 (€930+/-)
Schools fees, GP/hospital appointments paid for, refuse collection, an actual car tax that repairs roads (not a central fund like ours)

Now take a rural house in County Louth, property tax, €430
Still has the education fees, doctor fees, still pay a motor tax that's way higher in comparison to the north (and gets lumped into the same place the lpt is going) and they get the added luxury of tolled roads into the bargain.

Throw in stamp duty paid, and VRT,

Can you justify that?

I cannot.

If you want to compare like with like then you have to either be specific or general. Council tax doesn't cover some of what you mentioned up there and our general taxes already cover schools, or would if we were collecting enough. Looking more generally at it, NI has a massive deficit, comparable to our own, and is bankrolled by the mainland. They're not an economic model to follow.
Also, have to been on their roads lately? 15-20 years ago ya knew you'd crossed the border when the road became smooth, now it's the same in the other direction. :pac:

PauloMN

If anyone wants a lesson in delusion, take a read of the SF election manifesto from 2011. In a country that was - and still is - completely and utterly skint, this party wanted to increase social welfare payments, bring back the (ridiculous) "Christmas bonus", take people out of the tax net, increase child benefit etc., as well as trying to unite NI with the ROI (which would be financial suicide right now).

How anyone can take such proposals seriously is beyond me. This property tax refund idea is just more populist rubbish to try and gain support come the next election.

Banjo String

Deleted User wrote: »

If you want to compare like with like then you have to either be specific or general. Council tax doesn't cover some of what you mentioned up there and our general taxes already cover schools, or would if we were collecting enough. Looking more generally at it, NI has a massive deficit, comparable to our own, and is bankrolled by the mainland. They're not an economic model to follow.
Also, have to been on their roads lately? 15-20 years ago ya knew you'd crossed the border when the road became smooth, now it's the same in the other direction. :pac:

There isn't council tax in the north.
There is domestic rates, and they do cover said services.

Would you like a link.?

bgrizzley

wandatowell wrote: »

Why is road tax so expensive?

700+ a year feck me!

My property tax is only 45 for the year so fcuk it tbh, I can afford it

road tax started off at E45...

bgrizzley

dp

Sunnyisland

While I do find the idea of SF paying back the property a publicity gimmick,Its no better or worse than what any of the other political parties have done,including the greens & Pd,s &Workers party.

What I do find amusing is the reaction here of the thought that a political party here would tell spoofs to enhance there prospects of getting more votes.

Is it that the opposition parties are afraid & know now that SF have a very good chance of getting into government next time around and that will actually eclipse Labour as the third biggest party in this state ?

Phill Ewinn

hyperborean wrote: »

3 paragraphs, over 100 words and not thing said....this is why people laugh at sinn fein's online army

The idea with elections is primarily to remove the people causing the problems. I'd vote for Girls Aloud, Boyzone, or basically anyone other than FF/FG.

Posting a bunch of RTE fed bullsh1t on a forum like this isn't acceptable. This isn't the politics forum. You yourself have no answers.

The way to deal with the deficit is to create massive amounts of jobs, tax our mineral wealth & and impose a meaningful tax rate on corporations. That nonsense you posted earlier is just that. Turn off the RTE and pay attention to what is going on.

awec

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Are you going to acknowledge all sensible economics or just the economics that suits you. The place is broke, the people are broke too. Businesses are failing because of austerity measures like property tax.

If you honestly believe that loading a tax on property while ignoring low corporate tax rates and resource wealth will be some kind of cure for a shortfall in the tax take you are wrong.

Asking the average worker to pay for absolutely everything is not working and will not work. Other countries fund services from a variety of resources. We're using one. The taxpayer.

Tell me, why would any multinational company bring employment and opportunity to Ireland when there is a 30% corporation tax rate as proposed by SF?

Especially now that the UK is dropping their rate.

Of the ones that are here already, why would they stay?

How do you propose we make up for that loss of tax revenue, both in corp tax and the PAYE tax paid by employees of these firms in this country?

awec

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Oh God, grow up.

Again, more over-sensitivity around SF.

Yeah, it's not at all possible that we have a principled party in Ireland willing to actually do something to back up their rhetoric. After 90 years of FF and FG i can understand your cynicism.

SF principled? Are you for real? :pac:

The point, as Sinn Fein have consistently pointed out, is that there are plenty of other taxes and cuts that can be made that don't target already struggling families yet again.

Yes, the usual short sighted rhetorical crap, none of which will ever be implemented. Aimed toward people who'll lap up whatever they say, like you.

This has been spewed out by a few posters thinking they're making some sort of great point but all it really does is highlight their ignorance about what council rates are and what services they go to provide. But sure hey, who needs facts when you have a snappy sound bite.

SF are supposedly an all-island party. Surely an all-island party is not going to have completely different policies on both sides of the border. SF do though as hilarious as that is.

All island party my ass. A bunch of opportunists, clinging on to whatever is the topic of the day in a pathetic attempt to try and make themselves appealing.

Phill Ewinn

awec wrote: »

Tell me, why would any multinational company bring employment and opportunity to Ireland when there is a 30% corporation tax rate as proposed by SF?

Especially now that the UK is dropping their rate.

Of the ones that are here already, why would they stay?

How do you propose we make up for that loss of tax revenue, both in corp tax and the PAYE tax paid by employees of these firms in this country?

You missed the bit where I said stop watching RTE. Big corps are paying 4% or less. Sometimes less than 2% sometimes fvck all. Increasing a nominal rate to some other nominal rate that corporations won't pay isn't any solution.

Britain is getting its corporations to pay up, just like the Aussies do. Why don't we? If we got even 9%, same as France do, that would be a start.

VinLieger

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

You missed the bit where I said stop watching RTE. Big corps are paying 4% or less. Sometimes less than 2% sometimes fvck all. Increasing a nominal rate to some other nominal rate that corporations won't pay isn't any solution.

Britain is getting its corporations to pay up, just like the Aussies do. Why don't we? If we got even 9%, same as France do, that would be a start.

As much as i disagree with the ridiculous 30% crap SF spout on about this is a key issue that theres far too many loopholes corporations have to avoid even paying close to the 12%