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Formula 1 2013: Round 2 - Malaysian Grand Prix

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    #512
    Scotty #
    Registered Users Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    BostonB wrote: »
    Depends what you mean by "sporting". You seem to be taking it as to win at any cost. Rather than Sportsmanship which is something else entirely.
    I am talking about sportsmanship. The idea of always playing fair and doing the right thing. Mark Webber and RedBull did not display sportsmanship when they asked a competitor to let the other guy win. What Vettel did after that might not have been very sporting either but I don't think you can deny that asking another competitor to not pass you or not even try to pass you is unsportsmanlike to the extreme. It would be considered cheating in most sports.

    ScumLord wrote: »
    Red Bull are more than just a formula one team, they're a franchise that put their public image above everything else.
    I really think that of all people involved with RedBull racing Sebastian Vettel did the least damage last Sunday.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    ...if he keeps jeopardizing Red Bulls points by taking risks with both their cars they could look very dimly on him.... While Vettle is great and so far hasn't had to many crashes if he starts to affect the overall points the team can win there are just as many good drivers out there waiting to take his job.
    I think this statement is a bit naive of you to be honest. Vettel is GOD as far as RedBull are concerened (and after last Sunday he's pretty high in Bernies books too). If they had to choose between Webber and Vettel Webbers arse wouldn't hit the floor on the way out. There are not 'just as many good drivers' out there. As much as I hate to say it he is something special.

    To be honest I'm a bit surprised I seem to be the only one defending Vettel. I'm not defending his stabbing Webber in the back. I'm saying he should not have been put in that situation to begin with.

    Christian Horner is being interviewed on SKY SPORTS F1 at 8pm... looking forward to that now he's had a few days to consider his thoughts.


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    #513
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,285 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Scotty # wrote: »

    Christian Horner is being interviewed on SKY SPORTS F1 at 8pm... looking forward to that now he's had a few days to consider his thoughts.

    Thanks for the heads up. Im preparing the sick bag here.
    Im expecting a few bullcrap comments about having two great drivers who both want to win and then full support for seb and skirting around any question of him stabbing mark in the back.


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    #514
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Scotty # wrote: »
    To be honest I'm a bit surprised I seem to be the only one defending Vettel. I'm not defending his stabbing Webber in the back. I'm saying he should not have been put in that situation to begin with.

    I'm curious, after presumably shaking hands on a pre-race agreement to stick to Multi 21, and after having a four second lead over Vettel before pitting & then being told to wind back the engine as Vettel would not be challenging and had been ordered to do the same...do you think Mark was naive to assume Vettel would stick to his word? Do you think Mark should have ignored all the agreements & orders?


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    #515
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Scotty # wrote: »
    I am talking about sportsmanship. The idea of always playing fair and doing the right thing. Mark Webber and RedBull did not display sportsmanship when they asked a competitor to let the other guy win. What Vettel did after that might not have been very sporting either but I don't think you can deny that asking another competitor to not pass you or not even try to pass you is unsportsmanlike to the extreme. It would be considered cheating in most sports. ...

    Playing fair would have been to say you wouldn't abide by the team rules, when asked to do so, before the race. Not to do a Pearl Harbour on your teammate with no warning. Especially when you know adhering to those rules put your teammate at a disadvantage. It was a sucker punch.

    You've been taking about Gamesmanship, to win at any cost, not Sportsmanship all along.

    A discussion about team orders being unfair is a different discussion. Vettel wasn't making any sort of stand against team orders because he agreed to them beforehand. Also he asked the team to get Webber to move out of his way.


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    #516
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    EnterNow wrote: »
    ...Do you think Mark should have ignored all the agreements & orders?

    TBH RB are going to have hard time getting Webber to follow any "team" orders from now on.


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    #517
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    BostonB wrote: »
    TBH RB are going to have hard time getting Webber to follow any "team" orders from now on.

    The more Mark cools down over this, the more inclined I am to think he'll just get on with the job & see out whats prob his last year in F1 in high spirits, & tbh, who could blame him. I like Mark, he's an honest chap, he's a good racer & well able to battle, he always makes time for a chat on the grid walk & he speaks from his heart. To think two years ago he went into the last race leading Vettel & could have been a world champion, & he never really recovered from that I think. He's looking sharp this year though, he will certainly fancy one or two more wins before hanging up his helmet


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    #518
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I wonder though if he out in front and the team tells him to slow down, and Vettles behind, or indeed there someone behind he could take some time out of for Vettle, will he do that. I suspect not.


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    #519
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    BostonB wrote: »
    I wonder though if he out in front and the team tells him to slow down, and Vettles behind, or indeed there someone behind he could take some time out of for Vettle, will he do that. I suspect not.

    A few days ago I'd have made those same points, but as the drama fades & Marks anger subsides, all he has left is his professionalism. He's a team player as has been mentioned, I'm sure when the dust settles, Mark will want to do his job at RB. Maybe he'll help Seb out when all this is long forgotten, maybe he'll hold a grudge...the next eight months will tell us :)


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    #520
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    As I think I said earlier. Does he go for broke, his last chance of getting F1 titles, wins etc. Or continue to be the team player. Which gives him better options after F1.


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    #521
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The way I see it, they had an agreement before the race to hold station after the final pit stop, and why wouldn't Seb agree? He was on pole, he would have first option on pits, and even if Webber went onto a different strategy, he would be further back the field and could be used as a sighter for deciding when to pit himself.

    Unfortunately, with all these things in his favour, he somehow managed to find himself behind Webber after the final stop, and that didn't make Seb a happy boy.


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    #522
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    BostonB wrote: »
    As I think I said earlier. Does he go for broke, his last chance of getting F1 titles, wins etc. Or continue to be the team player. Which gives him better options after F1.

    It'll depend on the next few races. If he can keep Vettel at bay & stay with him points wise, Mark could be unpredictable & just go for it. But if Vettel eeks out a lead, I'd wager Mark will play the team game, he won't let himself down & he'll be looking to keep his options open for life after F1


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    #523
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I expect you're right.


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    #524
    Scotty #
    Registered Users Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    EnterNow wrote: »
    do you think Mark was naive to assume Vettel would stick to his word?
    I doubt Vettel gave his word about anything, but regardless, there is no way on earth that Mark assumed Vettel would stick to it. They have both broke agreements and disobeyed instructions too many times in the past so I don't see why this race would be any different.
    EnterNow wrote: »
    Do you think Mark should have ignored all the agreements & orders?
    Well, Mark hasn't always stuck to agreements in the past but I don't think his personality allows him to be as ruthless as Vettel. If he was more selfish and ruthless then maybe he'd have won a title or two.

    There is a big difference between a 24 year old (3 times world champion none the less) disobeying orders and a 37 year old veteran doing it.


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    #525
    James Hunt
    Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭James Hunt


    Along with the wide range of fulsome apologies, it's interesting to consider Dr Marko's comments that Seb is 'distressed' about it, and "I don't think he'll do that again".

    Maybe he underestimates Vettel's ruthlessness. Or maybe it wasn't ruthlessness, but something rather more juvenile?

    Too much analysis methinks.


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    #526
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    Scotty # wrote: »

    Well, Mark hasn't always stuck to agreements in the past but I don't think his personality allows him to be as ruthless as Vettel. If he was more selfish and ruthless then maybe he'd have won a title or two.

    Mark's a driver you would love to have a pint with. Korea 2010 cost him the title. In 2011 the car and the aero gave Seb the edge. 2012 title should have been Fernando's.

    Mark should win Monaco, Silverstone and Germany but now he is 14 points behind Seb instead of level.


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    #527
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭amacca


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    Mark's a driver you would love to have a pint with. Korea 2010 cost him the title. In 2011 the car and the aero gave Seb the edge. 2012 title should have been Fernando's.

    Mark should win Monaco, Silverstone and Germany but now he is 14 points behind Seb instead of level.

    I would dearly love to see him come out on top this season

    Himself and Massa would be two very popular world champions imo...then again i cant help rooting for the underdogs


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    #528
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    Red Bull maintain they never favoured Sebastian Vettel in Sepang despite confirming that the German had more horsepower than his team-mate in the closing stages.

    The Red Bull saga has dominated headlines for the past week ever since Vettel disobeyed orders to hold station behind Mark Webber in last Sunday's Malaysian GP.



    But instead of doing just that, the German stormed by with ten laps remaining, stealing the grand prix victory from the Australian.
    However, it appears it was never going to be a fair fight as Red Bull had told Webber to cut his engine more than Vettel's.



    "After speaking with Christian, it seems Mark was told to turn down the wick on his engine, but the team didn't tell Sebastian to do the same thing," Bernie Ecclestone told the The Mail on Sunday.
    Red Bull have confirmed the F1 supremo's claims.


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    #529
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Webber isn't going to win the title so he should just **** the team off at this stage tbh.


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    #530
    Jordan 199
    Registered Users Posts: 11,729 ✭✭✭✭Jordan 199


    I'm guessing was one of the reasons Vettel went against team orders was that when he saw Alonso retire, he had the opportunity to build a bigger points gap between himself and Alonso and that's what he did.


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    #531
    ottostreet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭ottostreet


    Yep, I agree, I think Alonso's retirement made Vettel even more determined to open up a bigger lead.


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    #532
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    I think whats been said about it has been said, there's good points been made for & against what Seb did, & good points made in defense of Mark too. At this stage though I think the thing needs to be forgotten about, roll on the next race


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    #533
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    EnterNow wrote: »
    At this stage though I think the thing needs to be forgotten about, roll on the next race
    Mark and Seb on the front of the grid so we can see where they stand. :pac:


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    #534
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    EnterNow wrote: »
    I think whats been said about it has been said, there's good points been made for & against what Seb did, & good points made in defense of Mark too. At this stage though I think the thing needs to be forgotten about, roll on the next race

    Yea roll on the season with the red bulls at each others throats.

    It will not end well for red bull, but for us fans it will be electric.


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    #535
    vectra
    Registered Users Posts: 15,513 ✭✭✭✭vectra


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    Yea roll on the season with the red bulls at each others throats.

    It will not end well for red bull, but for us fans it will be electric.

    Which is what we would all like to see but it would be unlikely as RB could manipulate each cars settings as the race progresses from the pitwall :(


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    #536
    recyclebin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    vectra wrote: »
    Which is what we would all like to see but it would be unlikely as RB could manipulate each cars settings as the race progresses from the pitwall :(

    The pitwall can't change anything remotely. The driver has to do it manually. The only way they can keep them apart is having different pit stop strategies.


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    #537
    vectra
    Registered Users Posts: 15,513 ✭✭✭✭vectra


    recyclebin wrote: »
    The pitwall can't change anything remotely. The driver has to do it manually. The only way they can keep them apart is having different pit stop strategies.

    you mean to say the engineers and techies have no way of changing settings while the car is on track?? :o


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    #538
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭amacca


    vectra wrote: »
    you mean to say the engineers and techies have no way of changing settings while the car is on track?? :o

    yeah, I always thought (perhaps mistakenly) they could turn up or turn down engine/settings change maps etc with the click of a mouse via radio from the pits

    then again in that case why the need for radio calls telling the driver to twiddle knob a to setting b......unless the radio wasn't working and it had to be done manually?


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    #539
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    I think it's a regulation that only the driver is allowed adjust the settings, the team can only get telemetry back from the car.


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    #540
    donspeekinglesh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,862 ✭✭✭donspeekinglesh


    It was allowed for a season or so. 2002 maybe. David Coulthard won in Monaco because the team were able to remotely fix a fault.


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    #541
    Scotty #
    Registered Users Posts: 3,767 ✭✭✭Scotty #


    SV said in todays press conference that while he was sorry he disobeyed team orders, he was not sorry for taking the victory from MW and he would probably do it next time too. He said Mark did not deserve the win and he will never ever apologise for winning.

    Glad to see he's honest about it at last.


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