Formula 1 2013: Round 2 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Andrew76

EnterNow wrote: »

Looking at the bigger picture now, he's very likely cost himself any further assistance from Webber...that could in the end hurt him a lot more than taking second place as he was ordered to do. By whatever means in this case, seems a very, very shortsighted move by Vettel...its' gonna be a long season

Absolutely, it might be a harsh lesson learnt if he loses out on the title due to an absent wingman.

Autosport wrote: »

Will Redbull punish Vettel though??? Not a hope they will but if it had been Webber i'd say he would be getting his P45

What way could they punish him though? Watson says to replace him for a race, sure that would only p1ss him off and most likely earn you less points in that race = less money at the end of the season no? Wouldn't fancy being in Horner's shoes anyway.

christy c

Was Webber ever much use to Vettel over the last three seasons though? I remember he let Vettel through in Brazil last year but other than that I'm struggling to think of any. Open to correction though

Webber said something like "Im not pulling over for anyone" last year, so I don't think this year would be any different even if this incident never happened. I'm not condoning what Vettel did but I don't think the argument that Vet potentially cost himself many more points holds much water. Webber isn't the type of guy who yields

Myrddin

christy c wrote: »

so I don't think this year would be any different even if this incident never happened. I'm not condoning what Vettel did but I don't think the argument that Vet potentially cost himself many more points holds much water. Webber isn't the type of guy who yields

I guess we'll see over the next eight months. Its easily possible Webber won't fight too hard against anyone who is going chasing after Vettel, he could do any number of things that could go against Vettel really. One things for sure, Vettel is certainly better off having Webber as friend rather than foe

Myrddin

Andrew76 wrote: »

What way could they punish him though? Watson says to replace him for a race, sure that would only p1ss him off and most likely earn you less points in that race = less money at the end of the season no? Wouldn't fancy being in Horner's shoes anyway.

Talk of punishing him is madness, he didn't break any regulation or rule...in a nutshell he disobeyed a strategic call from the team, there's nothing they can or will want to do to him

Scotty #

LIGHTNING wrote: »

No offence but I hate that line. Senna in my view did some awful things in his time and he in fact pretty much started that "its OK to punt guys off as long as you win" mentality that is now in motorsport.

No offence taken. I'm not saying it's right or even OK, I'm saying I think it's what separates the good drivers from the great ones.

EnterNow wrote: »

"Mark is too slow, get him out of the way"....yeah, real Die Hard stuff that.

Vettel knew exactly what his intentions were when he said this. This was a message to Marks team to say get ready, I'm coming trough.

EnterNow wrote: »

Vettel will be hard pressed to get Mark to play the team game for this season...

But Red Bull won't.

Mark will still do as he's told by Red Bull because it's the kind of guy he is. It's not the first time Vettel has screwed him over and won't be the last. Webber has already shook hands with Vettel since the incident.

Rascasse

EnterNow wrote: »

Nah I think a line should be drawn under it now, the damage is done & Mark wouldn't want a win handed to him. If he had been told by the team in Malaysia that Vettel is catching up & they had to race then thats fair enough...its win or lose. But to be told to hold station that the race is over & then suddenly the four second lead you had is gone & your team mate is on your gearbox...thats just bad form.

Considering this is potentially Marks last year in RB/F1, Vettel will be hard pressed to get Mark to play the team game for this season & that could potentially cost him more than the seven points he got by screwing Webber over

I still think it's in his interest to seek rapprochement with Mark. I'll preface by saying I think this year will be more 2011 than 2012 in that Vettel will win it with ease. By the time McLaren catch up it will likely be too late. Merc and Lotus are quick, but RB will out develop them. Only Ferrari to keep them honest but they are already behind and won't have their wind tunnel back for a while (no matter about using Toyota's ons, there's a reason teams spend tens of millions to have them on site).

Notwithstanding all that, I still think Vettel should at least offer to give him the win. Every time Webber finishes between Vettel and Alonso is another step towards the title. It won't do his cause any good if red cars start finding it easy to pass Webber. Plus it would go some way to repair his reputation (outside of Germany).

Cookie_Monster

EnterNow wrote: »

Talk of punishing him is madness, he didn't break any regulation or rule...in a nutshell he disobeyed a strategic call from the team, there's nothing they can or will want to do to him

he disobeyed a direct order from the head of the team. It's a workplace incident and for the sake of the team (company) they need to do something to show certain employees are not above the law of the company.

Myrddin

Scotty # wrote: »

Vettel knew exactly what his intentions were when he said this. This was a message to Marks team to say get ready, I'm coming trough.

So out the window with Multi 21, the team orders & even the orders of the team principal. I think the team issues the orders, not the drivers.

But Red Bull won't.

Mark will still do as he's told by Red Bull because it's the kind of guy he is. It's not the first time Vettel has screwed him over and won't be the last. Webber has already shook hands with Vettel since the incident.

Maybe, maybe not. We will have to wait & see

Myrddin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

he disobeyed a direct order from the head of the team. It's a workplace incident and for the sake of the team (company) they need to do something to show certain employees are not above the law of the company.

It wont happen, it was bad sportsmanship only, I can't really see it any other way. They are certainly not gonna cut off their nose to spite their face

Scotty #

EnterNow wrote: »

So out the window with Multi 21, the team orders & even the orders of the team principal. I think the team issues the orders, not the drivers.

I think the team full expected SV to go for the pass. There is a good post driver debriefing interview with Horner here where he more or less says he wouldn't expect anything less from Vettel. Horner, "These guys are race drivers, they hungry, they're competitive, they're not submissive, and that's why we sign them."

Ross Brawn said after the race that he would be asking serious questions if Rosberg had not protested strongly at being given team orders.

I always felt Multi-21 was more of a 2nd driver instruction than 1st and will continue to be.

EvilMonkey

EnterNow wrote: »

"Mark is too slow, get him out of the way"....yeah, real Die Hard stuff that.

He was told to stay 3 seconds behind him, what would you expect him to say? You will hear this message any time a slower team mate is holding up a driver going faster.
Red Bull eventually told Webber to pick up the pace.

Ghost Train

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

he disobeyed a direct order from the head of the team. It's a workplace incident and for the sake of the team (company) they need to do something to show certain employees are not above the law of the company.

I read John Watson saying they should suspend him for a race, for disobeying horners instruction, yes, don't see it happening

Would have a little bit of sympathy for Vettel in that post race the team were saying they could have raced each other up to the last stop... yet radio from the team was telling him to save his tires and not sure they wanted them pushing each other even mid race.

His "Marks too slow, get him out of the way" request did come across as arrogant and like a spoilt child though

Infoanon

Ghost Train wrote: »

His "Marks too slow, get him out of the way" request did come across as arrogant and like a spoilt child though

Absolutely - Mark Webber was driving the car at a pace that suited the Pirelli wear rate - the fact he was backing Vettel into Hamiltons grasp probably didn't escape Seb !

No matter what way you look at it, Vettels arrogant outburst has done him no favours

RayM

Ghost Train wrote: »

I read John Watson saying they should suspend him for a race, for disobeying horners instruction, yes, don't see it happening

John Watson is an idiot. No F1 team is going to suspend a three-time world champion, potentially depriving him of a fourth title.

I wish journalists would stop seeking the opinions of people like Watson, Moss, Stewart, Lauda, etc. It's fine when they're reminiscing about their own careers, but none of them have anything relevant or interesting to say about modern-day F1.

James Hunt

LIGHTNING wrote: »

No offence but I hate that line. Senna in my view did some awful things in his time and he in fact pretty much started that "its OK to punt guys off as long as you win" mentality that is now in motorsport.

Not to derail the thread, but I do agree with this. I've seen it a few times over the last 24/36 hours - how Senna/Schumacher would have done the same. But Senna wasn't always in the right in his antics - although the contemporary legend of Senna would have you believe so. Schumacher's legacy is more accurately depicted.

With regard to John Watson, Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda etc...yeah, don't have much interest in their views at this stage. In fairness to Watson on this occasion though, while its hard to see Vettel being punished directly by Red Bull, it does create a difficult situation for Horner - his authority has been completely undermined and that can't be just brushed under the carpet in my view. This was a very public affront and saying that it will be dealt with 'in house' won't ease that perception - only a tangible rebuke will do that, I think.

ScumLord

I love the drama. It's about time a proper fight erupted in formula 1, they've all been far to media savy and clean cut for my liking. I think if I was Mark Webber I'd be looking at a different team so I could have a go at Vettle and turn it into a real rivalry. I think he's really being held back from he's full potential at red bull and he's no spring chicken, at this stage he may have little to lose moving to another team.

BaZmO*

ScumLord wrote: »

I love the drama. It's about time a proper fight erupted in formula 1, they've all been far to media savy and clean cut for my liking.

Yeah, it's kinda loss a bit of its edge.

ScumLord wrote: »

I think if I was Mark Webber I'd be looking at a different team so I could have a go at Vettle and turn it into a real rivalry. I think he's really being held back from he's full potential at red bull and he's no spring chicken, at this stage he may have little to lose moving to another team.

Driver the best car on the grid is now classed as being held back?

Scotty #

Infoanon wrote: »

Absolutely - Mark Webber was driving the car at a pace that suited the Pirelli wear rate - the fact he was backing Vettel into Hamiltons grasp probably didn't escape Seb !

No matter what way you look at it, Vettels arrogant outburst has done him no favours

Apart from adding another GP win to his tally, getting him maximum points, getting one over on his team mate, and, oh yea, putting him in the lead in the championship. No favours indeed... :P

Frank Bullitt

I wonder though, with this happening this early in the season and the talk of Webber hitting the road at the end of the year, will it come back to haunt Vettel.

Imagine if he needs help later in the season from Webber, will he even listen then?

It could well get interesting yet.

iDave

To be honest if i were Horner i would of told Webber to move for Vettel. He had the pace, is a 3 time champ and lets face is more likely to win a fourth than Webber win a first. Would Ferrari think twice about asking Massa to move for Alonso?

Technoprisoner

they both received the same message to turn the engine down... Mark did and Seb didn't. The team had made the decision this was in best interest's....now what would have happened if Mark decided not to turn down his engine? do you think i would have been ok for him to disregard the teams instructions? would it have been alright for him to race Vettel to the end or do you think Mark would of had some explaining to do at the end of the race? What Seb did was slimey and i have lost a lot of respect for an amazing driver.

BostonB

BaZmO* wrote: »

..Driver the best car on the grid is now classed as being held back?

Well he was holding himself back by following team orders. He should have ignored them and put as much distance (and traffic) between himself and Vettel.

I think he needs to look out for himself this season without being obvious about it. Its probably his last Season anyway. Also he might as well risk damaging the car to win at this point.

BaZmO*

BostonB wrote: »

Well he was holding himself back by following team orders. He should have ignored them and put as much distance (and traffic) between himself and Vettel.

I think he needs to look out for himself this season without being obvious about it. Its probably his last Season anyway. Also he might as well risk damaging the car to win at this point.

That's just being wise after the fact. He had no reason not to follow his teams' orders, he wasn't to know that Vettel would disregard the order.

BostonB

Indeed. But the point remains. He needs to be more ruthless to win.

Cool_CM

ScumLord wrote: »

I think he's really being held back from he's full potential at red bull and he's no spring chicken, at this stage he may have little to lose moving to another team.

I agree, but realistically at this stage of his career what team in a position to win the championship would have him as a first/equal driver?

He'll be 37 when next season starts.

stevenmu

On the one hand I can see why Webber would be so put out, he was told to turn down the car and back off, and then Vettel comes along and over takes him, and I can see why people would agree that it's unsporting.

But on the other hand, he had plenty of warning that Vettel was going for it, why not just turn everything back up and race him for the win? As far as we know he wasn't in a situation like Hamilton where he had to save fuel/tyres to make it to end of the race. If Vettel felt he was faster and deserved the win, why shouldn't he go for it? I can see how it would seem very unfair from Vettel's point of view if he felt he could take the win, but the team wouldn't let him.

I normally have a lot of respect for Webber, but the more I think about it, the more this is starting to sound like sour grapes on his part. He simply wasn't quick enough to keep Vettel behind and he expected the team to protect him.

I guess it depends on the condition of the car. If he needed to save fuel or tyres to get the car home, then I think it's fair to expect protection from the team. But if the car was capable of racing, then I don't think he should have been entitled to the team protecting his win and it was fair for Vettel to come at him.

Frank Bullitt

Had a read of Coulthards blog on this over on BBC, he is one bitter cúnt.

ScumLord

BaZmO* wrote: »

Driver the best car on the grid is now classed as being held back?

It's not much good to Webber having the best car on the track if he's not allowed to use it. Webber was able to maintain his lead up until he was ordered to turn the car down.

SnowDrifts

Gintonious wrote: »

Had a read of Coulthards blog on this over on BBC, he is one bitter cúnt.

Started to read Coulthard's blog and he was making sense for the first part and I was wondering where you were getting the bitter part from but then I read on.... Yep - a total bitter c**t. Maybe being a number 2 driver for nearly all his career has left deep wounds.