Formula 1 2013: Round 2 - Malaysian Grand Prix

Ghost Train

stevenmu wrote: »

On the one hand I can see why Webber would be so put out, he was told to turn down the car and back off, and then Vettel comes along and over takes him, and I can see why people would agree that it's unsporting.

But on the other hand, he had plenty of warning that Vettel was going for it, why not just turn everything back up and race him for the win? As far as we know he wasn't in a situation like Hamilton where he had to save fuel/tyres to make it to end of the race. If Vettel felt he was faster and deserved the win, why shouldn't he go for it? I can see how it would seem very unfair from Vettel's point of view if he felt he could take the win, but the team wouldn't let him.

I normally have a lot of respect for Webber, but the more I think about it, the more this is starting to sound like sour grapes on his part. He simply wasn't quick enough to keep Vettel behind and he expected the team to protect him.

I guess it depends on the condition of the car. If he needed to save fuel or tyres to get the car home, then I think it's fair to expect protection from the team. But if the car was capable of racing, then I don't think he should have been entitled to the team protecting his win and it was fair for Vettel to come at him.

Maybe Mark decided it was better to finish the race than keep racing and risk a DNF

End result for Mark isn't all bad, Vettels reputation has been taken down a fair bit

CarrickMcJoe

While the scrap for the lead is what we want to see it was team orders to hold position. Christian Horner is the one that came out worst, after all he is the team owner, he gave the order and Vettel over ruled him.

Mercedes had a simular spat but Ross Braun laid down the law clearly to his drivers..

Horner lost control.

tunguska

Scotty # wrote: »

For me, this is what separates the World Champions from the wannabe World Champions. It's the win at all cost, kill or be killed, no surrender attitude. Schumacher had in droves and so did Senna.

Vettel would do what he did yesterday every time. He can't help it. It's instinct. No more than Webber, even if he got the chance again, would still not brake team orders. It's just the type of guy he is. Great if you are looking for a buddy - not so great if you are looking for a World Champion. Rocky summed it up perfect when congratulating Vettel after the race... "you certainly wanted it enough...". Vettel will happily apologise til the cows come home but he'd still do it again next week and that's the difference between winners and runners-up. History does not record 'the bigger man', it records the winner.

It's the same reason Hamilton didn't pull over at the finish and let Nico take 3rd. He'd rather look soluem on the podium and whinge about how Nico deserved it more than actually hand it over.

I have no problem with the killer instinct needed to be the best. The problem I have with what happened on sunday was the fact that it wasnt an even playing field. Webber could've raced vettel fair and square and who knows what would have happened. Vettel may still have come out on top, or it couldve been webber or they might have drove each other off the track. Webber was under the impression that they werent racing each other but vettel moved the goal posts. Thats like somebody walking up to you smiling, shaking your hand, then as soon as your back is turned lamping you out of it with a chair. Pearl harboured as they used to say in the WWF. Webber shouldve taken the gloves off and said to hell with the team orders, if that little prick wants a race I'll give him one.

Scotty #

Ghost Train wrote: »

End result for Mark isn't all bad, Vettels reputation has been taken down a fair bit

And that's the disgusting thing about all this. A guy who gives 100% in a race and risks all to win is seen as the bad guy. How unsporting of him! It's pathetic that we're even discussing this and another step towards WWE style F1.

Scotty #

tunguska wrote: »

I have no problem with the killer instinct needed to be the best. The problem I have with what happened on sunday was the fact that it wasnt an even playing field. Webber could've raced vettel fair and square and who knows what would have happened.

Horner said in his BBC interview that he would have to check but as far as he was aware both cars were in the same [race] engine mode.

The thing is Mark gave up and let him pass. Would Vettel have done the same if the roles were reversed? Absolutely not! He's sooner take them both out than let Webber pass. And that is the real difference between their two personalities and why one is a multiple world champ and the other is not.

BostonB

Scotty # wrote: »

And that's the disgusting thing about all this. A guy who gives 100% in a race and risks all to win is seen as the bad guy. How unsporting of him! It's pathetic that we're even discussing this and another step towards WWE style F1.

Kinda missing the point. Its IS WWE style F1 now, because some drivers are slowing down for team orders rather than racing.

BostonB

Scotty # wrote: »

...The thing is Mark gave up and let him pass. Would Vettel have done the same if the roles were reversed? Absolutely not! He's sooner take them both out than let Webber pass. And that is the real difference between their two personalities and why one is a multiple world champ and the other is not.

You must have seen a different race.

You reckon taking the other driver "out" as in a crash flat out on the straight is ok?

Scotty #

BostonB wrote: »

You must have seen a different race.

?? Webber moved off the racing line and clearly opened the door for Vettel to pass. He could have defended and didn't. In other words, he gave up. Not a trait of a worthy world champion.

StephenHendry

CarrickMcJoe wrote: »

While the scrap for the lead is what we want to see it was team orders to hold position. Christian Horner is the one that came out worst, after all he is the team owner, he gave the order and Vettel over ruled him.

Mercedes had a simular spat but Ross Braun laid down the law clearly to his drivers..

Horner lost control.

yep thats the difference although you could say that nico and lewis would have had the sense not to risk anything, but then again ross brawn wasnt' going to take that chance.

the other situation , i think seb was in the wrong breaking team orders, at least for him there's a few weeks break for things to settle down again. its put alot more pressure on RB

frostie500

Scotty # wrote: »

?? Webber moved off the racing line and clearly opened the door for Vettel to pass. He could have defended and didn't. In other words, he gave up. Not a trait of a worthy world champion.

Im not really sure how Webber's merits as a potential world champion can really come into this. The crux of the matter is that both Red Bull drivers were told by their team to conserve their cars on the run to the finish. Vettel had plenty of time to get ahead of Webber before the final pitstops but he was unable to do so. Mark had a pretty commanding lead by the time of the stops (something like 4 seconds) and when he was told by his team that they would be running in formation to the finish he eased off.

Vettel on the other hand did not ease off and fought his teammate for the win. Admittedly their battle for the lead seemed very fierce and Webber wasnt giving him a quarter but without the order to slow down and conserve their cars would Webber have given up so much time in the laps after the pit stops? Of course not.

The whole incident is very reminiscent of Villeneuve and Pironi at Imola in 82. At that race Ferrari were comfortably ahead of the pack after the Renaults retired and the order came from the pits that they should "SLOW" and race in formation to the flag and a win in Italy.

Villenueve was ahead and faster than Pironi throughout the race (sound familiar?) when the order came through. He eased off and Pironi closed onto his rear wing and then dived past under braking into Tosa. Villeneuve didn't think much of it and assumed that Didier was simply trying to put on a show for the tifosi so a couple of laps later Gilles overtook him and eased off the pace again so that there was no issue with fuel etc.

A couple of laps later Pironi passed Villeneuve again and Gilles started to think that maybe his teammate wasn't trying to put on a show but was looking to take the win. But Gilles, a dutiful team driver if ever there was one, got to the front and slowed his pace again to follow the orders of the team.

On the penultimate lap Pironi let Villeneuve through into the lead and it appeared that he was going to race by the original agreement and the team orders that were issued. However on the final lap he passed Gilles again and took the win.

Afterwards Villeneuve was rightfully livid as he had lost a race that should have been his. Or as someone within the team said: "It wasn't just a matter of nicking a Grand Prix victory. Pironi knew exactly what effect a betrayal of trust would have on a bloke of Gilles' personality..." (again does this sound familiar?)

Villeneuve said later that he didn't mind finishing second if Pironi was faster but finishing second because the place had been stolen from his was a totally different story. He expected Enzo Ferrari or Piccini, the team boss, to rebuke Pironi publicly but nothing was forthcoming from the team. Ultimately Villeneuve died at the following race and everyone have always said that his mental state in the time leading up to Zolder had been clouded by Imola

What Vettel did on Sunday was the exact same. The team issued an order to both drivers and Vettel and Pironi both ignored the orders and stole a GP victory from their teammate. After Imola Gilles said something along the lines of "everyone here thinks that we had this hard fought race where we were on the limit but after the order came in I was in front and I wasn't even pushing..."

Again does any of this sound familiar to Sunday? No-one would dare to say that Gilles didn't have the traits of a worthy world champion so don't say the same about Webber. He was robbed of a win on Sunday having made all the right calls through the race and having outpaced Seb.

Here's a picture of Gilles on the podium as well after that race

BostonB

StephenHendry wrote: »

... its put alot more pressure on RB

I don't see how. The only person it puts pressure on is Webber to up his game and go for broke.

ScumLord

Scotty # wrote: »

And that's the disgusting thing about all this. A guy who gives 100% in a race and risks all to win is seen as the bad guy.

I can accept that somewhat but the fact is Vettle is driving someone else's car, he is an employee. I completely understand he's position and would be just as upset if I was in his position but Red Bull have played team orders to Vettles advantage in the past many times and he couldn't give Mark one deserved win?

As I said I'm just delighted that there's some drama on and off the track. The drivers never used to let people see how they felt about these things always reaming off sporting lines, even though you could sometimes see the red mist rising inside them.

I'm guessing we'll see more of this kind of thing. There's so many good drivers now the stakes are higher and the cars are closer on track. It's getting back to proper racing where drivers are clearly putting everything of themselves into the races and not relying on the technology..

Infoanon

ScumLord wrote: »

It's getting back to proper racing where drivers are clearly putting everything of themselves into the races and not relying on the technology..

Alas its not proper racing - most drivers are driving at about 80% by their own admission such is the necessity to safe the tyres.

A Red Bull at full race pace was getting thorugh a set of boots within 5 laps - while conserving tyres may be part of racing now a days - it is far from the proper racing that we would all like to see.

Infoanon

BostonB wrote: »

I don't see how. The only person it puts pressure on is Webber to up his game and go for broke.

The person it puts pressure on is Christian Horner - Helmut Marko was very quick to lay the decision to hold position at Christian's door - and comparisons are being made with Ross Brawns no nonsense approach to holding position, versus 'Seb,this is silly'.

Next move is Christians and how he deals with Sebs' actions.

ScumLord

Infoanon wrote: »

Alas its not proper racing - most drivers are driving at about 80% by their own admission such is the necessity to safe the tyres.

A Red Bull at full race pace was getting thorugh a set of boots within 5 laps - while conserving tyres may be part of racing now a days - it is far from the proper racing that we would all like to see.

I think that's just part and parcel of F1 these days and I have no problem with it. F1 cars could be a hell of a lot faster but the point, I always thought, was to bring it into line with other formula series where it's less about the car and more about what the drivers can do with the car on the day. Just about every other racing series has similar restrictions to keep the cars close on the track.

I'd love to see a company make a car that took advantage of every trick to go fast but I'm pretty sure they'd be no good for racing.

Shame there's not another race this week. Don't want this to blow over by the next race.

Infoanon

Infoanon wrote: »

Alas its not proper racing - most drivers are driving at about 80% by their own admission such is the necessity to safe the tyres.

A Red Bull at full race pace was getting thorugh a set of boots within 5 laps - while conserving tyres may be part of racing now a days - it is far from the proper racing that we would all like to see.

In that case, how much faster would you say that drivers could go per lap if they weren't looking after their tyres? Are they all driving to a delta and purposely not overtaking?

One thing that bemused me was some of the pit stops on the weekend. A lot of the front runners were pitting with very competitive lap times, and then not going much faster with fresh tyres on. I really think they could have pushed the boat out a bit more with their strategies.

Bullseye1

BostonB wrote: »

Kinda missing the point. Its IS WWE style F1 now, because some drivers are slowing down for team orders rather than racing.

There was nothing stopping Webber trying to defend his position or to take back his position once he had been passed. If he feels that Vettle gets preferential treatment and this is his final year in F1 why not go for it?

You would swear its impossible to turn the engine back up. People seem to forget that there was over 10 laps to go and Vettle was being asked to stay back and not overtake and therefore he too was also being asked to drive at a disadvantage.

Scotty #

frostie500 wrote: »

...No-one would dare to say that Gilles didn't have the traits of a worthy world champion so don't say the same about Webber.

I think someone has to be world champion before you can judge if they are worthy of it or not. Villeneuve never was. He probably should have taken the '79 title but he choose not to fight Scheckter for it. Would he ever have been World Champion with that attitude? We'll never know.

Webber has had a better chance than most to be World Champion and has failed. Party, in my opinion, because he does not have that attitude, that win at all cost attitude that Vettel has and other muti-title winners (ie. The greats!!) have had before him. You ask Horner, Brawn, Whitmarsh, or any team boss would they prefer a Vettel mentality or a Webber mentality in a driver and I can assure you they will choose Vettel 100% of the time.

We as fans should be delighted to see that attitude come through! Imagine if Vettel had followed multi-21 how boring the race would have been with 4 cars just keeping formation for half the race.

Vettel might not have done the right thing from a team mates point of view or from an employers point of view, but from a spectators point of view I'm delighted with him and I want to see more of it!

Max_Charger

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There was nothing stopping Webber trying to defend his position or to take back his position once he had been passed. If he feels that Vettle gets preferential treatment and this is his final year in F1 why not go for it?

You would swear its impossible to turn the engine back up. People seem to forget that there was over 10 laps to go and Vettle was being asked to stay back and not overtake and therefore he too was also being asked to drive at a disadvantage.

Maximum attack for 10 laps on 2013 Pirelli tyres? It would of been Kimi in China last year all over again, for both Seb and Mark.

EvilMonkey

frostie500 wrote: »

Im not really sure how Webber's merits as a potential world champion can really come into this. The crux of the matter is that both Red Bull drivers were told by their team to conserve their cars on the run to the finish. Vettel had plenty of time to get ahead of Webber before the final pitstops but he was unable to do so. Mark had a pretty commanding lead by the time of the stops (something like 4 seconds) and when he was told by his team that they would be running in formation to the finish he eased off.

Red Bulls strategy for the race was for the following car to back off and maintain a gap to the car in front, to stay out of the dirty air. They were seriously concerned about the tyres lasting. Once vettel switched on to the dry tyre a lap too early he found himself behind Webber and fell into this role. Im pretty sure vettel could have easily challenged webber earlier in the race but was unsure himself if the tyres would be up for it, he seemed to be driving well within his pace for the race. I dont see how he had plenty of time to get ahead of webber before the final stops. I reckon he would have caught Webber anyway. I am sure vettel turned his engine down once in front and still opened up a gap to webber. Vettel regularly ignores his teams requests for him to slow at the end of the race to set fastest laps etc. Red Bull have never done anything to stop this and usually laugh it off as just the way seb is, so why are they surprised this time?

the culture of deference

SniperSight wrote: »

I like Vettel, but he screwed Webber, I find it hard to believe someone as obviously sharp as him didn't know what was going on and that a team order was supposed to be ib effect as he claimed when interviewed by Pinks.

But Webbo did his best to fcuk up Sebs race in Brazil, I wonder if Seb kept a mental note of that and thought F you Mark.

Basil3 wrote: »

But at the same time you can understand that they don't want a repeat of Turkey 2010 when Vettel managed to have a brain fart and crash into Webber.

Yeah somehow Webber got the blame for that

Scotty # wrote: »

For me, this is what separates the World Champions from the wannabe World Champions. It's the win at all cost, kill or be killed, no surrender attitude. Schumacher had in droves and so did Senna. Vettel would do what he did yesterday every time. He can't help it. It's instinct..

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Weber has ignored team orders in the past Silverstone 2011 one example.

Yea

I can see both sides of this. Mark got mugged, but he isn't an angel. Yeah it's unfortunate but Seb is just a machine. I thought the overtake and fight on track between them was excellent, until Mark gave him the line. I couldn't work out how Webber had gone from being 5 seconds ahead to nothing. Seb came out of the pits and his instincts went mental.

He wants to win all the races, and he will not be happy with 5 or 6 championships. He delivers, almost every time.

mickdw wrote: »

Vettel now 14 ahead of webber and in lead of championship when they should both have same score if webber won. This is the kind of thing that decides championships.

Seb owes him 2 wins to even the score

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I was thinking that myself, if its his last year I personally would ignore any team orders.

Maybe at the last race decider webber takes Seb out and denies him the 4 in a row.

LIGHTNING wrote: »

You know what really annoyed me about the weekend was Coulthard commentary. He said that Webber gave Seb a pretty good squeeze into the pit wall. He said that its about as close as you want to get and that you wouldn't be able to get a cig paper between the wall and the wheel.

Yet when Schumacher did it he practically got the pitchfork out. He really annoys me that chap now.

Whats DC's problem. Is it not enough that he personally denied MS the 1998 championship.

I would like to know what Dietrich Mateschitz thinks about all this. Is all publicity good publicity? Helmut Marko did not look happy, and fair play to him for saying exactly what he thought about Seb.

From autosport
"Red Bull team principal Christian Horner has admitted they will need to hold further discussions following the controversy and Marko hopes they will do it behind closed doors."

Also the telegraph is stirring

On the question of whether the authority of Christian Horner, the Red Bull team principal, is undermined by this incident between Sebastian and Mark.

They also wondered why Christian didn't go on the podium for the win as he is team principal.

the culture of deference

the culture of deference wrote: »

They also wondered why Christian didn't go on the podium for the win as he is team principal.

Team principal doesn't go up more often than not I think.

donspeekinglesh

Buttonftw wrote: »

Team principal doesn't go up more often than not I think.

Flavio says it's normal for the team principal to go up for the first win of the season. No idea how true that is though.

Jordan 199

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Flavio says it's normal for the team principal to go up for the first win of the season. No idea how true that is though.

For the first race this season when Kimi won in the Lotus, Alan Permane was up on the podium instead of Eric Boullier.

donspeekinglesh

Flavio talking nonsense again so.

ScumLord

Bullseye1 wrote: »

There was nothing stopping Webber trying to defend his position or to take back his position once he had been passed.

You would swear its impossible to turn the engine back up.

Unless maybe the team had assured him he needed to maintain he's speed to finish the race with enough fuel and tires.

GTE

Scotty # wrote: »

?? Webber moved off the racing line and clearly opened the door for Vettel to pass. He could have defended and didn't. In other words, he gave up. Not a trait of a worthy world champion.

With respect, that post is rubbish.

This is because Webber was given the same order as Vettel and he knew that if he kept defending then a repeat of Turkey was quite sure of happening again. on top of that, they drivers were told to back off for a reason, either tyres or fuel.

On the grand scheme of the two drivers in a championship context then Webber may lose out but this topic has nothing to do with this. Webber won the race to the point that the drivers were told to pull back to save the car, this is the issue.

BostonB

I think is one event whose significance (or lack) of will only be apparent at the end of the season.

frostie500

Scotty # wrote: »

I think someone has to be world champion before you can judge if they are worthy of it or not. Villeneuve never was. He probably should have taken the '79 title but he choose not to fight Scheckter for it. Would he ever have been World Champion with that attitude? We'll never know.

So am I take it from this post that you think that Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve are better drivers than Gilles just because they won a title? The reason that Gilles didn't win a title was because for most of his career Ferrari produced terrible cars

Scotty # wrote: »

Webber has had a better chance than most to be World Champion and has failed. Party, in my opinion, because he does not have that attitude, that win at all cost attitude that Vettel has and other muti-title winners (ie. The greats!!) have had before him. You ask Horner, Brawn, Whitmarsh, or any team boss would they prefer a Vettel mentality or a Webber mentality in a driver and I can assure you they will choose Vettel 100% of the time.

I said in a different post that I understand both sides of the coin for what happened in Sepang. I know why Seb did what he did but I can also understand why Webber was so pissed off afterwards. I agree with you that Seb is one of the greats, he has been utterly dominant for the last four years and has driven at an incredible level...but that doesnt mean that he was right on Sunday.

I've a huge amount of respect for Vettel as a driver, I think that he is superb to watch and from any of my dealings with him he's been a sound guy that likes to have joke and a bit of craic but what he did on Sunday was wrong in my eyes. He stole a win from a driver who had been told by their team that he was secure at the front of the field.

I dont expect any top level sportsman to be happy when they're told that they wont win on any given day but they should respect the authority of their team bosses and act like a professional.