Kilkenny GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post # 5885 #4894 & #5202

kk.man

The all stars never fail to amuse me. Waterford win the league get 3 players at all stars. Kilkenny win league 2013 = 0 players. Last year Kk win everything Tipp had more all stars! Where we're Tipp this year when they were deemed so good!? If Waterford ever win an All Ireland they should get the whole 15 at this rate!. Best of luck to those who have won these awards but the fact of the matter is one on one in almost every all Ireland final for the last 10 years kilkenny players are streets ahead of any team in most positions.

blackcard

kk.man wrote: »

The all stars never fail to amuse me. Waterford win the league get 3 players at all stars. Kilkenny win league 2013 = 0 players. Last year Kk win everything Tipp had more all stars! Where we're Tipp this year when they were deemed so good!? If Waterford ever win an All Ireland they should get the whole 15 at this rate!. Best of luck to those who have won these awards but the fact of the matter is one on one in almost every all Ireland final for the last 10 years kilkenny players are streets ahead of any team in most positions.

I think if you offered most players a choice of an AI winners medal or 6 All Stars, they would pick the former. Tbh, I wouldn't care if kk got no All Stars as long as Liam McCarthy was resident in Kilkenny

Realt Dearg Sec

kk.man wrote: »

The all stars never fail to amuse me. Waterford win the league get 3 players at all stars. Kilkenny win league 2013 = 0 players. Last year Kk win everything Tipp had more all stars! Where we're Tipp this year when they were deemed so good!? If Waterford ever win an All Ireland they should get the whole 15 at this rate!. Best of luck to those who have won these awards but the fact of the matter is one on one in almost every all Ireland final for the last 10 years kilkenny players are streets ahead of any team in most positions.

There's no pleasing some people. Are you saying you're annoyed because KK didn't win all of the All Stars? The rest of the post is all over the place, not sure what 2013 has to do with this year's selection?

babyjesus14

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

There's no pleasing some people. Are you saying you're annoyed because KK didn't win all of the All Stars? The rest of the post is all over the place, not sure what 2013 has to do with this year's selection?

I think his point is we won the league in 2013 and ended up with no All-Stars, whereas all Waterford won this year was the league and they ended up with three.

While i think this years selection is a fair reflection on the performances of our players that hasn't been the case in recent years notably '12 and '14 when the counties we beat in the finals won more awards than us. And Paul Murphys' exclusion in '13 was harsh particularly in light of the fact that they picked three full-backs on that line, Richie McCarthy, Peter Kelly and David McInerney.

blue note

kk.man wrote: »

The all stars never fail to amuse me. Waterford win the league get 3 players at all stars. Kilkenny win league 2013 = 0 players. Last year Kk win everything Tipp had more all stars! Where we're Tipp this year when they were deemed so good!? If Waterford ever win an All Ireland they should get the whole 15 at this rate!. Best of luck to those who have won these awards but the fact of the matter is one on one in almost every all Ireland final for the last 10 years kilkenny players are streets ahead of any team in most positions.

That post amuses me! It looks to me like you had a post ready for today giving out about your lack of all stars and had to rewrite it when you won the most!

kk.man

I don't want Kk to win every All Star. However the all stars have been very unfair to Kk aka 2013 & 2014. Theses years are prime examples. Last year was the worst Kk won everything beating Tipp twice in 2 national finals and they hadn't a cup to their name. They get more all stars?
2013 is an example where at least one of the national league winning team be represented. But this year Waterford win the league only and get three. Paul Murphy was by far the best corner back in Ireland in 2013 but was not honoured as a prime example of that year.

The All Stars are about the best man in the position in the year they are chosen. That has not been the case for a number of years.

kk.man

I didn't see the baby jeaus post before my last post...I'm not only one thinking same...we in Kk not gready just want fairness in all stars..

blue note

kk.man wrote: »

I don't want Kk to win every All Star. However the all stars have been very unfair to Kk aka 2013 & 2014. Theses years are prime examples. Last year was the worst Kk won everything beating Tipp twice in 2 national finals and they hadn't a cup to their name. They get more all stars?
2013 is an example where at least one of the national league winning team be represented. But this year Waterford win the league only and get three. Paul Murphy was by far the best corner back in Ireland in 2013 but was not honoured as a prime example of that year.

The All Stars are about the best man in the position in the year they are chosen. That has not been the case for a number of years.

Hurling is a team game, but the all star awards are for individuals. So there's a trend that the teams that do better get more all stars, but if it was the case that the winning team won the most every year it would be clear that they aren't selecting them on an individual basis but rather deciding it on how well you did and who you play for. I'm delighted that they're moving away from this, but it will always mean that some teams will get less or more than you'd expect and some players will lose out. Paul Murphy was unlucky in 2013, Eoin Larkin thiis year and plenty of lads every year (not just Kilkenny ones).

HOTY unfortunately is still the based on the best player from the winning team (except in truly exceptional years). I'd give Callinan HOTY this year, but he hasn't a hope. I'm not sure if he's even shortlisted actually. I think the year Tommy Walsh won it I'd have given it to Lar and the year Lar won it I'd have given it to Tommy Walsh too (I might have those years or even individuals mixed up, but the point is the same).

bruschi

kk.man wrote: »

I don't want Kk to win every All Star. However the all stars have been very unfair to Kk aka 2013 & 2014. Theses years are prime examples. Last year was the worst Kk won everything beating Tipp twice in 2 national finals and they hadn't a cup to their name. They get more all stars?
2013 is an example where at least one of the national league winning team be represented. But this year Waterford win the league only and get three. Paul Murphy was by far the best corner back in Ireland in 2013 but was not honoured as a prime example of that year.

The All Stars are about the best man in the position in the year they are chosen. That has not been the case for a number of years.

your 2 points contradict each other. On one hand you say a team being successful should get more all stars, yet you finish by saying the all star is for the best man in an individual position. the best team does not necessarily have the best 15 individuals. The best teams win all irelands, the best players win all stars.

babyjesus14

bruschi wrote: »

your 2 points contradict each other. On one hand you say a team being successful should get more all stars, yet you finish by saying the all star is for the best man in an individual position. the best team does not necessarily have the best 15 individuals. The best teams win all irelands, the best players win all stars.

Surely the reason a team is the best is because they have better players?! By your logic Tipp had better players than Kilkenny last year so how did Kilkenny beat them in both the national finals?

blue note

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Surely the reason a team is the best is because they have better players?! By your logic Tipp had better players than Kilkenny last year so how did Kilkenny beat them in both the national finals?

You misunderstand. Tipp had 6 players that were better than the Kilkenny counterparts in those positions, Kilkenny had 5 better the other way around. How much better doesn't matter, those 5 might have been far better than the Tipp lads and the 6 Tipp lads slightly better than the Kilkenny lads. Then the four remaining lads same story - Kilkenny ones could have been way better.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you're being sincere in your posts and that this hasn't actually dawned on you as opposed to wilfully misunderstanding.

babyjesus14

blue note wrote: »

You misunderstand. Tipp had 6 players that were better than the Kilkenny counterparts in those positions, Kilkenny had 5 better the other way around. How much better doesn't matter, those 5 might have been far better than the Tipp lads and the 6 Tipp lads slightly better than the Kilkenny lads. Then the four remaining lads same story - Kilkenny ones could have been way better.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you're being sincere in your posts and that this hasn't actually dawned on you as opposed to wilfully misunderstanding.

It was actually 7 that Tipp won last year which suggests that they had the best player in the country in almost half the positions on the team and yet the couldn't win a single competition not even the one that the best team in the country were excluded from, the Munster championship.

So to me that would suggest that the rest of the team were well below standard(unlikely) or a number of the players were flattered by their selection( Gleeson, Brendan Maher and Shane McGrath).

bruschi

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Surely the reason a team is the best is because they have better players?! By your logic Tipp had better players than Kilkenny last year so how did Kilkenny beat them in both the national finals?

thats not my logic, at all, and being facetious in your argument to try make a point doesnt put any more credence to your argument.

You can argue team merits all you want, and I by no means agree with every year of all star selections, but you cant on one hand go on a bout a team winning and how its a team thing, and then on the other hand say its about individual players in selected positions.

And all the above coming from the fact it wasnt even you I was making the point to.

citykat

Bar Larks, think our all star haul is about right. Some year/achievement for Joey. Winning AI captain and All star in his first year at fb.

Mountainlad

Fogarty should have got one I think, certainly over David Burke who is being blown up a bit.

citykat

Mountainlad wrote: »

Fogarty should have got one I think, certainly over David Burke who is being blown up a bit.

Fogarty had a stronger case last year. Tbf Burke carried Galway at midfield esp in the AI when his companion hid.

Mountainlad

kk.man wrote: »

I don't want Kk to win every All Star. However the all stars have been very unfair to Kk aka 2013 & 2014. Theses years are prime examples. Last year was the worst Kk won everything beating Tipp twice in 2 national finals and they hadn't a cup to their name. They get more all stars?
2013 is an example where at least one of the national league winning team be represented. But this year Waterford win the league only and get three. Paul Murphy was by far the best corner back in Ireland in 2013 but was not honoured as a prime example of that year.

The All Stars are about the best man in the position in the year they are chosen. That has not been the case for a number of years.

Was he? He got a lot of criticism within his own county for hitting hail marys. But maybe, bar him who would you have given one given it was so unfair?

To be fair, ye lost two games and drew two more. Not a great year, and that was a much weaker Waterford side than this year that nearly beat ye too.

kk.man

Further to my point Eoin Larkin as stated by fellow cats but ask one Mr James Mc Garry..the most all Ireland wining goal keeper in either code without an All Star.

We are not in the 'no pleasing some people ' category just plenty of facts. The Hurling All Stars are taken with a grain of salt in our county for a number of years now

Mountainlad

kk.man wrote: »

Further to my point Eoin Larkin as stated by fellow cats but ask one Mr James Mc Garry..the most all Ireland wining goal keeper in either code without an All Star.
We are not in the 'no pleasing some people ' category just plenty of facts. The Hurling All Stars are taken with a grain of salt in our county for a number of years now

Richie Powers twitter reaction last year suggests otherwise to be honest, but all in the name of siege mentality I guess.

Realt Dearg Sec

kk.man wrote: »

Further to my point Eoin Larkin as stated by fellow cats but ask one Mr James Mc Garry..the most all Ireland wining goal keeper in either code without an All Star.

We are not in the 'no pleasing some people ' category just plenty of facts. The Hurling All Stars are taken with a grain of salt in our county for a number of years now

You're referencing my quote as if I'm from some other county. I'm a kk fan. Going on about 2013 or mcgarry makes no sense in relation to this year. Not at all clear why you're not happy about the selection this year ( Larkin aside). But you clearly are

kk.man

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

You're referencing my quote as if I'm from some other county. I'm a kk fan. Going on about 2013 or mcgarry makes no sense in relation to this year. Not at all clear why you're not happy about the selection this year ( Larkin aside). But you clearly are

I started my 1st post.. 'The All Stars never fail to amuse me'...I referenced Larkin as an example of this year's selection only some other poster stated other counties fell foul of the selections also.
My point is Kk total dominated the game of Hurling for the last 10 odd years but we did not get a fair reflection of All Stars. Yes we got more than any other county but I don't think it was a fair reflection of some of the greatest players to play the game. I referenceed Mc Garry and 2013 as prime examples to posters who have forgotten. There my story ends.

tbiggertycome

There's really only one selection which amazes me, I really can't credit it to be honest. How Tadhg De Burca got an All Star for marking space all year is beyond me. Although in fairness space was held scoreless! This is not an anti Blaa thing because I think the man who should have got it was from Waterford, Austin Gleeson is an infinitely better hurler.

Is it based on the amount of times a lads name is mentioned in commentary because a free hurler in defence should be mentioned a shed load as he should be cleaning up which in fairness Tadhg did but this is the minimum expected of a guy in that kind of a role. You could have put most of the Waterford team into that role and they all would have performed to the same level as De Burca this year in the system they were playing. Gleeson is 10 times the hurler De Burca is and played CB most matches if I remember correctly.

Wx

kk.man wrote: »

I started my 1st post.. 'The All Stars never fail to amuse me'...I referenced Larkin as an example of this year's selection only some other poster stated other counties fell foul of the selections also.
My point is Kk total dominated the game of Hurling for the last 10 odd years but we did not get a fair reflection of All Stars. Yes we got more than any other county but I don't think it was a fair reflection of some of the greatest players to play the game. I referenceed Mc Garry and 2013 as prime examples to posters who have forgotten. There my story ends.

I feel Kilkenny 's dominance started in 2000, so, all of this century
Given that the selections are the views (how measured is beyond me but they must be pretty subjective) of a group then there are bound to be differences of opinion.
To me the biggest questionable position has been that of goalkeeper selection but in some ways it's the obvious contentious position.
With Kilkenny winning so much I feel there is an unconscious bias amongst the selectors to give something to others and the goalkeeper is the obvious one.

Mountainlad

tbiggertycome wrote: »

There's really only one selection which amazes me, I really can't credit it to be honest. How Tadhg De Burca got an All Star for marking space all year is beyond me. Although in fairness space was held scoreless! This is not an anti Blaa thing because I think the man who should have got it was from Waterford, Austin Gleeson is an infinitely better hurler.

Is it based on the amount of times a lads name is mentioned in commentary because a free hurler in defence should be mentioned a shed load as he should be cleaning up which in fairness Tadhg did but this is the minimum expected of a guy in that kind of a role. You could have put most of the Waterford team into that role and they all would have performed to the same level as De Burca this year in the system they were playing. Gleeson is 10 times the hurler De Burca is and played CB most matches if I remember correctly.

You are 100% wrong. At no time did Gleeson play center back and so basically you have taken any merit for what you had said before that.

He is not an infinitely better hurler. Take it from me, and basically all Waterford people you ask who've been watching the two all year.

Do you remember when Brian Hogan got an all star in 2011? And do you remember when he was 'marking' Mullane and let him score 1-6 in the semi? Why do you think Brian Hogan got the all star?

I'll give you the rationale sure, save some time. Kilkenny only conceded a goal in the semi and the final, compared to three the year before. And why did that happen? Because Cody recognized that Tennyson left Hickey isolated at full forward the year before and decided to get Hogan to sit back, with the midfield pushing further back and the half forward tracking back and working like dogs to tighten up.

Bourke was there to stop goals and launch attacks. Waterford conceded 2 goals from play in 4 games. His distribution was excellent. He made several catches in a crowd of players, something I feel I have to point out as they a few are going on you'd think he was operating in an exclusion zone with no players allowed enter except him. He also scored a super point v Cork.

A well deserved all star for a lad that was 20 yrs of age for the duration of his league and championship.

Justice for the individual

tbiggertycome wrote: »

There's really only one selection which amazes me, I really can't credit it to be honest. How Tadhg De Burca got an All Star for marking space all year is beyond me. Although in fairness space was held scoreless! This is not an anti Blaa thing because I think the man who should have got it was from Waterford, Austin Gleeson is an infinitely better hurler.

Is it based on the amount of times a lads name is mentioned in commentary because a free hurler in defence should be mentioned a shed load as he should be cleaning up which in fairness Tadhg did but this is the minimum expected of a guy in that kind of a role. You could have put most of the Waterford team into that role and they all would have performed to the same level as De Burca this year in the system they were playing. Gleeson is 10 times the hurler De Burca is and played CB most matches if I remember correctly.

Agree with you on all of the above. Is Gleeson a shoe-in for Young Hurler of the year?, and as they wanted to reward Waterford (the team mind you) this probably explains them picking De Burca, but as some one already has argued on here it should strictly be for the best performer in each position of the field. Some years the panel will omit the best performer in one position and reward another (who has not being the best in his particular position) just to balance/spread the awards.

It looks like the goalkeepers are picked because of a porous backline, which results in getting many pot shots, resulting in many saves, whereas a goalkeeper on a good team is well protected by his backs, and even though he consistently performed well and has six AI's (I think McGarry had a record of playing in so many championship matches with only 1 goal scored against him and that was the last game he played when he came on as a sub), an award never came his way. He definitely deserved an All-Star, and it looked some kind of award balancing was going on to constantly omit him. However, other's have been omitted, so it is not the first, and won't be the last, but for a guy with six AI's to not get even one All-Star is curious to say the least.

donnem33

Justice for the individual wrote: »

Agree with you on all of the above. Is Gleeson a shoe-in for Young Hurler of the year?, and as they wanted to reward Waterford (the team mind you) this probably explains them picking De Burca, but as some one already has argued on here it should strictly be for the best performer in each position of the field. Some years the panel will omit the best performer in one position and reward another (who has not being the best in his particular position) just to balance/spread the awards.

It looks like the goalkeepers are picked because of a porous backline, which results in getting many pot shots, resulting in many saves, whereas a goalkeeper on a good team is well protected by his backs, and even though he consistently performed well and has six AI's (I think McGarry had a record of playing in so many championship matches with only 1 goal scored against him and that was the last game he played when he came on as a sub), an award never came his way. He definitely deserved an All-Star, and it looked some kind of award balancing was going on to constantly omit him. However, other's have been omitted, so it is not the first, and won't be the last, but for a guy with six AI's to not get even one All-Star is curious to say the least.

Hes not nominated!!! Its going to be either cathal mannion, jason flynn or tadhg de burka...i would imagine flynn will get it seen as the other two have all stars

unrealtime

Galway had a chyte side in 2012 but they had six better players than we had that year - but spread throughout the team. The other nine completely useless players have subsequently been recognised as such and put out to grass post haste by the all-seeing Cunningham - soon to be put out to most-deserved grass himself.

Munster hurling is really in a very bad way with 4 decent players only. Time to put Galway into Munster to try and improve the lousy standard down there.

Toblerone1978

kk.man wrote: »

The all stars never fail to amuse me. Waterford win the league get 3 players at all stars. Kilkenny win league 2013 = 0 players. Last year Kk win everything Tipp had more all stars! Where we're Tipp this year when they were deemed so good!? If Waterford ever win an All Ireland they should get the whole 15 at this rate!. Best of luck to those who have won these awards but the fact of the matter is one on one in almost every all Ireland final for the last 10 years kilkenny players are streets ahead of any team in most positions.

I totally misunderstood the All Stars. I thought it was based on individual performances, not team performance. :-)

Who would you swap a WD All Star from and replace with Tipp player? I'd probably pick Barrett ahead of Connors but otherwise I think it's fair - even they'd be even.

Cornerback1

Mountainlad wrote: »

Fogarty should have got one I think, certainly over David Burke who is being blown up a bit.

True. Conor deserves one after his performances. He's been consistently good in mid-field. To slip seemlessly into 'lár na páirce' from the corner is testament to his attitude and hurling ability.

archieknox

tbiggertycome wrote: »

There's really only one selection which amazes me, I really can't credit it to be honest. How Tadhg De Burca got an All Star for marking space all year is beyond me. Although in fairness space was held scoreless! This is not an anti Blaa thing because I think the man who should have got it was from Waterford, Austin Gleeson is an infinitely better hurler.

Is it based on the amount of times a lads name is mentioned in commentary because a free hurler in defence should be mentioned a shed load as he should be cleaning up which in fairness Tadhg did but this is the minimum expected of a guy in that kind of a role. You could have put most of the Waterford team into that role and they all would have performed to the same level as De Burca this year in the system they were playing. Gleeson is 10 times the hurler De Burca is and played CB most matches if I remember correctly.

Are you still breathing there?!! Tadgh- young hurler of the year.