Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

opti0nal

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I worked in a shop in Monkstown years ago and there was a Cumann na Something located around the corner. The attendees used to insist on speaking in Irish to the staff

The Irish language revival movement is obsessed with two rights: The right to speak Irish and the right to force others to do so.

gobnaitolunacy

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

He probably was just on the wind up. But, what if it was Connemara? In an Irish speaking region it would have been rude for the Garda to speak only English.
In Dublin, while English is the first language its still Ireland. Is it really that mental that someone opts only to use their national language?

(a) it didn't happen in the arse end of the Connemara Gaeltacht.
(b) its not as if he was totally incapable of communicating in any other way.
(c) if he was asking for assistance in a shop/directions/what time the next bus is, I wonder would he insist on the medium of Irish every time? I bloody doubt it very much, in Dublin a smack he'd be gettin'.

nesf

awec wrote: »

Are you worried that without Irish being forced on children that it would die out completely as a spoken language everywhere on this island except the most ardent Gaeltacht areas?

Irish being forced on people in schools doesn't help the language from dying out. I mean, seriously, sweet feck all people can string more than a basic sentence together for all their schooling.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Well for one thing, monolingual Irish speakers do exist, some parents raise their kids through Irish only and let them learn English later in school.

They're not really monoglots in the sense that we normally use the word (i.e. adult speakers of only one language). There are some Welsh monoglots still around, Irish ones no.

nesf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh please, there's no way a child could spend five years growing up in Ireland and not speak English.

Eh, no. As someone with two Irish speaking kids let me tell you it would be rather trivial if you lived in a Gaeltacht. You'd just have to be committed to doing it. Now I personally don't see the point in not bringing up the kids bilingually because they'll be learning English at some point anyway but each to their own I suppose.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What about tv? And the outside world? Do these children not play with other children? Do they not go to playgroup?

TG4 do a fairly good range of childrens programs, but that said children don't really pick up a language from TV, at a young age its just background noise. Its from contact with actual people that they learn a language.


At a very young age, 0 - 18 months, children hardly ever play with other children unless they have brothers and sisters. At this stage, their contact with other people is with their parents for the vast majority of the time. By the time they do start having contact with other children in playgroups, their first language is already established. Even when they get to playing with other children, its not like there are no Irish language playgroups in the country.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

At a very young age, 0 - 18 months, no children hardly ever play with other children unless they have brothers and sisters. At this stage, their contact with other people is with their parents for the vast majority of the time. By the time they do start having contact with other children in playgroups, their first language is already established. Even when they get to playing with other children, its not like there are no Irish language playgroups in the country.

Both my kids are native Irish speakers, when they play together it's normally through English, when my daughter plays with her dolls, she talks to them through English. Outside of talking to my wife and her family they don't use Irish. The "primary" language gets overridden very quickly once their interactions in a certain area (here play) are primarily through English. This is normal for bilingual children.

Also with my son, he's older at six, if someone comes up to him (and he doesn't know/recognise them) and speaks Irish to him he'll respond in English for a good 10 minutes before switching over to Irish. He's so used to random people only speaking English that he defaults to that.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Both my kids are native Irish speakers, when they play together it's normally through English, when my daughter plays with her dolls, she talks to them through English. Outside of talking to my wife and her family they don't use Irish. The "primary" language gets overridden very quickly once their interactions in a certain area (here play) are primarily through English. This is normal for bilingual children.

Also with my son, he's older at six, if someone comes up to him (and he doesn't know/recognise them) and speaks Irish to him he'll respond in English for a good 10 minutes before switching over to Irish. He's so used to random people only speaking English that he defaults to that.

You raised your children with Irish and English, fair play. While the children are fluent in both languages, one or the other will become the default language, though not always the same one for different areas. That is normal for bilingual families and is what you described above.

However that does not take away from the fact that there are families where the children do not have much English.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

You raised your children with Irish and English, fair play. While the children are fluent in both languages, one or the other will become the default language, though not always the same one for different areas. That is normal for bilingual families and is what you described above.

However that does not take away from the fact that there are families where the children do not have much English.

How many such families are there now in the Ireland of today though ?

Lord TSC

I could well imagine there are people out there with no English, but I'd imagine they are very, very few in number, and decreasing with the passing years. Dara O'Briain (the comedian) talks about how his father only speaks Irish and he has to converse with him in it. I'd imagine that for children to only speak Irish nowadays, parents would have to make an effort to prevent their children from learning English, and I don't see why many would do that to be honest. But I do think it's conceivable.

Now, that said, I still think such people would be solely in the minority of the already minority group who can speak fluent Irish, and I don't think any agenda should be based on such a small, small group of people.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

However that does not take away from the fact that there are families where the children do not have much English.

In a Gaeltacht area I think that is quite appropriate, outside of a Gaeltacht I don't think it is. When those children go to school (or preschool through Irish) they won't be with other native speakers if you're outside the Gaeltacht. My son was the only native speaker in his class, he needed English to play and talk to the other students, the early years in a Gaelscoil are not solely through Irish after all.

That and there's no advantage to bringing the kids up solely through Irish anyway, just as there's no advantage to bringing them up solely through English. I recognise that it's a natural choice for two Irish native speakers to do this but I worry that they're doing their child a disservice by neglecting English when the child will very much need it early on in life if they live outside of a Gaeltacht.

nesf

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Now, that said, I still think such people would be solely in the minority of the already minority group who can speak fluent Irish, and I don't think any agenda should be based on such a small, small group of people.

What agenda?

gobnaitolunacy

nesf wrote: »

That and there's no advantage to bringing the kids up solely through Irish anyway, just as there's no advantage to bringing them up solely through English. I recognise that it's a natural choice for two Irish native speakers to do this but I worry that they're doing their child a disservice by neglecting English when the child will very much need it early on in life if they live outside of a Gaeltacht.

Wouldn't they need Irish to get all the 'grants' and to get them a nice job translating the myriad goverment docs that everyones going to read?

nesf

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Wouldn't they need Irish to get all the 'grants' and to get them a nice job translating the myriad goverment docs that everyones going to read?

Eh, I was saying they should be brought up bilingually.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

In a Gaeltacht area I think that is quite appropriate, outside of a Gaeltacht I don't think it is. When those children go to school (or preschool through Irish) they won't be with other native speakers if you're outside the Gaeltacht. My son was the only native speaker in his class, he needed English to play and talk to the other students, the early years in a Gaelscoil are not solely through Irish after all.

I don't think its inappropriate to raise your child through Irish anywhere in Ireland. You are right about sending your child to a Gaelscoil if you live outside the Gaeltacht though. Some parents actually say that their childs Irish got worse when they went to a Gaelscoil because of picking up broken Irish from other children.

Personally I would raise my child through Irish and then send them to an English medium school, at least at primary level, second language immersion with English being the second language.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

I don't think its inappropriate to raise your child through Irish anywhere in Ireland. You are right about sending your child to a Gaelscoil if you live outside the Gaeltacht though. Some parents actually say that their childs Irish got worse when they went to a Gaelscoil because of picking up broken Irish from other children.

Personally I would raise my child through Irish and then send them to an English medium school, at least at primary level, second language immersion with English being the second language.

My son apparently speaks three languages, English to me, Irish to Mommy and something like Irish at school.

VinLieger

The main crux of the argument that An Coileann and other irish language proponents (except for Coles who is seems to be just trolling at this stage) seem to be missing here is the other side of the argument arent asking for it to be scraped banned or whatever just for the entire way of thinking and teaching it to be overhauled as the current system is simply not working no matter how you look at it economically or educationally.
The census figures of 1.7 million are garbage and your deluding yourselves if you think otherwise which is sad as you obviously care a great deal about this issue.

What i think needs to happen is the language to be removed as a compulsory language and like the foreign languages it should be sold on its merits instead of forced on people who see no reason to learn it. The pro irish group has gotten lazy in the sense they havent ever had to sell it thanks to it always being compulsory and this may be one of the reasons theres such a sense of apathy towards it by a large part of the population.
My suggestion is to massively change the way its taught, remove it from being compulsory BUT give it incentives in the leaving cert like has been suggested with mathematics to improve its higher level uptake.

I dont want it banned or to die but i just think the attitude to it currently is completely wrong and i severely resent the pro groups arrogant and dissmissive attitude on here towards those of us arguing for change specifically Coles who claims because i dont want to speak a language and have no interest in learning it im not "really Irish"? Seriously where do you get the right or even the gall to suggest such a disgusting and reductive thing. I love Ireland, ive chosen to work for alot less by staying compared to going abroad because i dont want to leave this country so dont you dare try and suggest your "more Irish" than me simply because you can speak a language that was actively forced down my throat for 14 years while i constantly questioned why i needed it and was never given an answer

Coles

VinLieger wrote: »

...except for Coles who is seems to be just trolling at this stage...

I am the only person who has presented ANY facts on this entire thread.

...specifically Coles who claims because i dont want to speak a language and have no interest in learning it im not "really Irish"? Seriously where do you get the right or even the gall to suggest such a disgusting and reductive thing.

Perhaps you could provide a link to where I said that. I have stated that I think it's important for other Irish people to be tolerant and not to disrespect other strands of Irish culture, specifically Gaelic culture. That really doesn't seem to be that offensive to me? I can't imagine the English, French, Spanish or Germans would be as tolerant.

If I recall correctly the only person who claimed to be 'more Irish' than anyone else was Wibbs who claimed that his/her ancestors were living here during the Ice Age. Very unlikely, and quite silly too.

An Coilean

VinLieger wrote: »

The main crux of the argument that An Coileann and other irish language proponents seem to be missing here is the other side of the argument arent asking for it to be scraped banned or whatever just for the entire way of thinking and teaching it to be overhauled as the current system is simply not working no matter how you look at it economically or educationally.

What i think needs to happen is the language to be removed as a compulsory language and like the foreign languages it should be sold on its merits instead of forced on people who see no reason to learn it.

The other side want Irish to be made optional, regardless of the effect that will have on the language or the education system. It seems to me to be based on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system.
They also want the Official languages act and language commissioner to be scrapped, suggesting that they want Irish speakers to be treated as second class citizens in this country.

Personally I have criticized how Irish is taught for years and where possible have contributed my opinions on how to improve it, however there is no evidence that making it optional will do anything to improve it. Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.

VinLieger

Coles wrote: »

Perhaps you could provide a link to where I said that.

Coles wrote: »

Another interesting question. I have a very open definition, but it's based on the person making a conscious choice. If they have chosen to identify themselves as Irish then that's good enough for me. I suppose it also requires an allegiance to the land and a respect for the native tradition, heritage and culture. I find most people who lack this really don't want to be considered 'Irish' and usually choose another identity. Like you guys.

I think thats pretty plain

VinLieger

An Coilean wrote: »

The other side want Irish to be made optional, regardless of the effect that will have on the language or the education system. It seems to me to be based on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system.
They also want the Official languages act and language commissioner to be scrapped, suggesting that they want Irish speakers to be treated as second class citizens in this country.

Personally I have criticized how Irish is taught for years and where possible have contributed my opinions on how to improve it, however there is no evidence that making it optional will do anything to improve it. Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.

Well we have no evidence that the current system will improve the education system either in fact we have a few decades proving exactly the opposite. Maybe removing it from being compulsory wouldnt work but at this stage something needs to be done other than keeping our heads in the sand and sticking our fingers in our ears which yes you havent done but others like coles are actively participating in

1ZRed

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

Irish sounds like a cat choking on a hairball.

I will achieve my dream of "One species, one language" someday....

It only sounds that retarded because you haven't a hope of pronouncing anything even mildly close to how it should sound.

If anything is to go it's the ridiculous book Irish that's taught. Sounds absolutely terrible. That and Donegal Irish, pure gibberish.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

The other side want Irish to be made optional, regardless of the effect that will have on the language or the education system. It seems to me to be based on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system.
They also want the Official languages act and language commissioner to be scrapped, suggesting that they want Irish speakers to be treated as second class citizens in this country.

Personally I have criticized how Irish is taught for years and where possible have contributed my opinions on how to improve it, however there is no evidence that making it optional will do anything to improve it. Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.

This is the kind of blinkered thinking that has us where we are ?

Have you any evidence that makeing it optional would do as you you say ?

The only dogmatic ideology at play here is the blind adherace to compulsion.

The problem is ''that people that would otherwise have learnt it'' HAVE NOT learnt it !

why would scrapping the language commissioner make Irish Speakers second class citizens ?

Lord TSC

nesf wrote: »

What agenda?

Pushing Irish as a compulsory subject, insisting every document gets translated into Irish, insisting the Gardai should spend time and money learning Irish to please those awkward enough to insist on dealing with them through Irish, etc...

Basically, refusing to let everyone make the decision themselves as to the importance of the language, and forcing it on everyone regardless of their desires, despite the resentment this causes on multiple levels.

An Coilean wrote: »

Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.

Could you provide a specific example of this happening please? Because I could easily also argue that those who wish to keep it compulsory are basing their argument "on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system."

Coles

VinLieger wrote: »

I think thats pretty plain

Eh? Is that offensive? You will note that I see it as a choice that people make.

I'm reminded of the guy who said that he's a Dublin man and therefore Irish is not his language. Selective identity. Dublin first, then Ireland. Other people reject their Irish identity in other ways. But they may as well be rejecting their blood type.

An Coilean

VinLieger wrote: »

Well we have no evidence that the current system will improve the education system either in fact we have a few decades proving exactly the opposite. Maybe removing it from being compulsory wouldnt work but at this stage something needs to be done other than keeping our heads in the sand and sticking our fingers in our ears which yes you havent done but others like coles are actively participating in

You are right, the current system is not working, that is something that has long been accepted, if anything the only people with their heads in the sand are the Dept. of Education.

There is supposed to be an in-depth review of the Irish curriculum at primary level ongoing that should address some concerns at that level, we will have to wait and see what changes will be implemented.

Mainstream Irish Language Organisations have been arguing for change in how Irish is taught for years. Just because the only thing reported on is opposition to making Irish optional doesn't mean that there have been no constructive suggestions on reform of the curriculum from our side.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

You are right, the current system is not working, that is something that has long been accepted, if anything the only people with their heads in the sand are the Dept. of Education.

There is supposed to be an in-depth review of the Irish curriculum at primary level ongoing that should address some concerns at that level, we will have to wait and see what changes will be implemented.

Mainstream Irish Language Organisations have been arguing for change in how Irish is taught for years. Just because the only thing reported on is opposition to making Irish optional doesn't mean that there have been no constructive suggestions on reform of the curriculum from our side.

But why the obsession with compulsion ? That is a central plank of what has been a dismal failure ?

nesf

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Pushing Irish as a compulsory subject, insisting every document gets translated into Irish, insisting the Gardai should spend time and money learning Irish to please those awkward enough to insist on dealing with them through Irish, etc...

Basically, refusing to let everyone make the decision themselves as to the importance of the language, and forcing it on everyone regardless of their desires, despite the resentment this causes on multiple levels.

Documents have to be translated into Irish because people have a legal right to do business with the Government or the Law in Irish. I don't see this changing any time soon but equally I don't see any Irish speakers insisting on it, they don't have to, it's a legal thing.

Gardaí are unfortunately required by law to be able to deal with the public in Irish in all situations. Now the native speakers I know outside when outside of a Gaeltacht would always speak in English to the Gardaí rather than put one in a very uncomfortable spot. Inside the Gaeltacht where the Garda is known as an Irish speaker it'd be different. This isn't a general thing where Irish speakers are demanding the Gardaí speak to them only in Irish just the odd nutter in Dublin being a prick over something. It's a legal right but it isn't generally viewed as a realistic right as far as I can tell by most Irish speakers.

It's the education system not Irish speakers that force Irish on kids and with the large number of Irish teachers employed I don't see that changing any time soon for good or bad.

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Could you provide a specific example of this happening please? Because I could easily also argue that those who wish to keep it compulsory are basing their argument "on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/aug/24/who-still-wants-learn-languages

Second language learning was made optional in England in 2004, it was a disaster.

Making languages optional was, O'Neill says, partly about improving access to education for the less able. Unfortunately, this was founded on "an illusion that a good education for children of fewer advantages is to introduce more choice

One of the many unintended results is that "the experience of other cultures is now confined to an elite

The reality is that those that demand that Irish be made optional have provided nothing more than opinion, there is no evidence that it will improve the education system or the teaching of Irish.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Gardaí are unfortunately required by law to be able to deal with the public in Irish in all situations. Now the native speakers I know outside when outside of a Gaeltacht would always speak in English to the Gardaí rather than put one in a very uncomfortable spot.

This is the problem, by speaking Irish, you should not be putting anyone in a very uncomfortable spot, that is where the failure lies. There should be a procedure in place whereby Irish speakers can be dealt with effectively and fairly without anyone being made uncomfortable.

That is the role of An Coimisinéir Teanga, his job is to ensure that such procedures are put in place.