Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

This is the problem, by speaking Irish, you should not be putting anyone in a very uncomfortable spot, that is where the failure lies. There should be a procedure in place whereby Irish speakers can be dealt with effectively and fairly without anyone being made uncomfortable.

That is the role of An Coimisinéir Teanga, his job is to ensure that such procedures are put in place.

You should not be putting anyone in an uncomfortable spot , but the reality is you are . That is the truth of the matter . And by insisting on your right you are just alienating more people in such recessionary times.

Who do you thing has come out of this incident looking the best.

Can I have an anser on the compulsion question please, thanks.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

This is the problem, by speaking Irish, you should not be putting anyone in a very uncomfortable spot, that is where the failure lies. There should be a procedure in place whereby Irish speakers can be dealt with effectively and fairly without anyone being made uncomfortable.

That is the role of An Coimisinéir Teanga, his job is to ensure that such procedures are put in place.

Ish, I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect two Gardaí at a random checkpoint to have one of them with good enough Irish to talk to someone well bearing in mind that the Irish speaker if they want to be a prick about it can start using complicated sentences or dialectical features to make life very difficult for that Garda to understand them if they don't have good Irish.

I mean, speaking a language to a good level, which is what is required for Gardaí to deal with the public as Gaeilge is not a "do a 6 week course" thing. You're talking about constant effort over years to get to a good level and for what, 2-3 interactions a year?

LordSutch

VinLieger wrote: »

What i think needs to happen is the language to be removed as a compulsory language and like the foreign languages it should be sold on its merits instead of forced on people who see no reason to learn it. The pro irish group has gotten lazy in the sense they havent ever had to sell it thanks to it always being compulsory and this may be one of the reasons theres such a sense of apathy towards it by a large part of the population.
My suggestion is to massively change the way its taught, remove it from being compulsory BUT give it incentives in the leaving cert like has been suggested with mathematics to improve its higher level uptake.

I dont want it banned or to die but i just think the attitude to it currently is completely wrong and i severely resent the pro groups arrogant and dissmissive attitude on here towards those of us arguing for change specifically Coles who claims because i dont want to speak a language and have no interest in learning it im not "really Irish"? Seriously where do you get the right or even the gall to suggest such a disgusting and reductive thing. I love Ireland, ive chosen to work for alot less by staying compared to going abroad because i dont want to leave this country so dont you dare try and suggest your "more Irish" than me simply because you can speak a language that was actively forced down my throat for 14 years while i constantly questioned why i needed it and was never given an answer

Well said, I think we are on a similar wavelength, and this is what I said way back in post#879.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83817123&postcount=879

gobnaitolunacy

An Coilean wrote: »

This is the problem, by speaking Irish, you should not be putting anyone in a very uncomfortable spot, that is where the failure lies. There should be a procedure in place whereby Irish speakers can be dealt with effectively and fairly without anyone being made uncomfortable.

That is the role of An Coimisinéir Teanga, his job is to ensure that such procedures are put in place.

Let's just throw more money at getting all Gardai up to Leaving Cert standard Irish instead of doing police work :rolleyes:

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Ish, I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect two Gardaí at a random checkpoint to have one of them with good enough Irish to talk to someone well bearing in mind that the Irish speaker if they want to be a prick about it can start using complicated sentences or dialectical features to make life very difficult for that Garda to understand them if they don't have good Irish.

I mean, speaking a language to a good level, which is what is required for Gardaí to deal with the public as Gaeilge is not a "do a 6 week course" thing. You're talking about constant effort over years to get to a good level and for what, 2-3 interactions a year?

No one is suggesting that every gagda be able to speak Irish to the necessary standard. There are 14,200 gardaí in the country, we can be fairly confident that some of them have fluent Irish. A reasonable procedure would be to have designated Gardaí who can be contacted to help the Garda at the scene over the phone in the case that the person wants to speak Irish and the Garda at the scene does not have the necessary level of Irish.

Providing a reasonable service in two languages is not beyond the Gardaí, police services all over the world manage it.

Lord TSC

nesf wrote: »

Documents have to be translated into Irish because people have a legal right to do business with the Government or the Law in Irish. I don't see this changing any time soon but equally I don't see any Irish speakers insisting on it, they don't have to, it's a legal thing.

Laws change, especially when they become mooted by reality. And the reality is that there's only going to be a minuscule handful of people who are unable to read legal documentation because they cannot speak English, but can only speak Irish. As such, it's a law which only exists to cater to the demands of the awkward, not the necessity of the people.

Gardaí are unfortunately required by law to be able to deal with the public in Irish in all situations. Now the native speakers I know outside when outside of a Gaeltacht would always speak in English to the Gardaí rather than put one in a very uncomfortable spot. Inside the Gaeltacht where the Garda is known as an Irish speaker it'd be different. This isn't a general thing where Irish speakers are demanding the Gardaí speak to them only in Irish just the odd nutter in Dublin being a prick over something. It's a legal right but it isn't generally viewed as a realistic right as far as I can tell by most Irish speakers.

True, but then why should the very small minority of vocal gaelgori be able to force the entire Gardai force to attend Irish classes? Once again, the law is for the "odd nutter", not for the public as a whole. While I agree officers in the Gaeltacht should be expected to speak Irish, it's completly unrealistic to expect every officer to facilitate the "odd nutter".

It's the education system not Irish speakers that force Irish on kids and with the large number of Irish teachers employed I don't see that changing any time soon for good or bad.

I disagree with this bit on a few levels. For one, I don't think it was the Irish teachers who were objecting to Kenny's proposals to make Irish optional, to the extent that they were on the streets marching. Even if it was, should the entire country be dictated by a group of teachers like that (and this is coming from a teacher). At a time when the government is looking for ways to cut teacher wages and such, the priorities do not seem to be keeping teacher employment opportunities high.

Furthermore, even if Irish was made optional, chances are it would still be mandatory in all schools up to Junior Cert (where, realistically, most subjects are mandatory anyway). As such, it's not as if every Irish teacher out there would find themselves sacked. Retaining forced language classes like that just to appease a few employees is not how the world works.

nesf wrote: »

I mean, speaking a language to a good level, which is what is required for Gardaí to deal with the public as Gaeilge is not a "do a 6 week course" thing. You're talking about constant effort over years to get to a good level and for what, 2-3 interactions a year?

It's also glossing over the fact that all these Gardai will have already done 14 years of Irish classes anyway. If someone has spent 14 years learning a language and still cannot conduct a basic "What is your name" conversation, then another 6 weeks of a course is not going to help much.

An Coilean wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/aug/24/who-still-wants-learn-languages
Second language learning was made optional in England in 2004, it was a disaster.

See, here's the thing. That article simply argues that schools and students should be studying a second language, but it does nothing to convince me that Irish should be that language. In fact, it's stressing how important French and German is on an economic and global level, arguments which I'd have been making for years.

In which case, why not make Irish optional in such a way that parents and students are told that a second language is compulsory, but they get to choose between Irish, French, German etc. If the arguement is just that a second language is important, why should that second language be nessecarily Irish? Why not allow people to choose what the compulsory subject is?

nesf

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

As such, it's a law which only exists to cater to the demands of the awkward, not the necessity of the people.

It's really a lot more than that, it's saying that Irish is considered equal to English in the eyes of the State. Now whether you agree with this stance or not is another thing.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

True, but then why should the very small minority of vocal gaelgori be able to force the entire Gardai force to attend Irish classes? Once again, the law is for the "odd nutter", not for the public as a whole. While I agree officers in the Gaeltacht should be expected to speak Irish, it's completly unrealistic to expect every officer to facilitate the "odd nutter".

Because part of the above thing about legal documents extends to the Gardaí. It's an awkward situation, on one hand we want to say Irish is important, on the other we want to be realistic.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I disagree with this bit on a few levels. For one, I don't think it was the Irish teachers who were objecting to Kenny's proposals to make Irish optional, to the extent that they were on the streets marching. Even if it was, should the entire country be dictated by a group of teachers like that (and this is coming from a teacher). At a time when the government is looking for ways to cut teacher wages and such, the priorities do not seem to be keeping teacher employment opportunities high.

Furthermore, even if Irish was made optional, chances are it would still be mandatory in all schools up to Junior Cert (where, realistically, most subjects are mandatory anyway). As such, it's not as if every Irish teacher out there would find themselves sacked. Retaining forced language classes like that just to appease a few employees is not how the world works.

Kenny was only making it optional for the LC cycle, since it's still required by the NUI colleges there'd be an appetite for it. Now make it optional from going into Second Level and I think you'd see serious resistance. As a teacher you know it is not trivial for a teacher to retrain to a new subject and be eligible to teach it to LC level.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's also glossing over the fact that all these Gardai will have already done 14 years of Irish classes anyway. If someone has spent 14 years learning a language and still cannot conduct a basic "What is your name" conversation, then another 6 weeks of a course is not going to help much.

See here's the thing. That's 14 years of usually quite badly handled education. I came out of school more confident in German than Irish despite having a much smaller vocabulary in German because I was never taught grammar properly and I did Honours up until my Leaving. There's this idea out there that you can sit in class for 14 years and come out of it expecting to be able to speak it. It just doesn't work that way, languages don't work that way. Yes you get exceptional students who come out of Second Level with good Irish but these are unusual even amongst people signing on to do Irish at Third Level! The rest of us normal people who don't have a gift for languages would have to do a substantial amount of work on the language outside of class to develop a good standard. Learning a language is a lot of very hard, often boring, work. Most people suck when it comes to doing a lot of very hard, often boring, work even when they're paid to do it, never mind when it's for a language that most perceive as not being of use to them.

Dionysius2

nesf wrote: »

Irish being forced on people in schools doesn't help the language from dying out. I mean, seriously, sweet feck all people can string more than a basic sentence together for all their schooling.

Isn't it odd that even tho' the Irish languagage was thrust upon all right from the start of our national schooling that there was such blanket resistance (generally speaking) to it's acceptance ? What caused that mindset to exist ?
My belief is that the curriculum the authorities put in place was too very heavily overladen by the socalled 'scholars' who engineered the whole thing as if everyone was destined to feast on the salmon of knowledge and live life thereafter on some kind of aesthetic plane above and beyond the humdrum life of their forbears.

This approach wrecked the spontaneity of the young. The official insistence on teaching the grammar first before hardly anything else was grasped was the killer component. Kids of 5 or 6 know bugger all about grammar in the formal sense but it is clear to us all surely that they can use tenses correctly without much difficulty and therein lies the unrecognised fault which resulted in the rejection of the Irish langauge.

Iwasfrozen

nesf wrote: »

Kenny was only making it optional for the LC cycle, since it's still required by the NUI colleges there'd be an appetite for it. Now make it optional from going into Second Level and I think you'd see serious resistance. As a teacher you know it is not trivial for a teacher to retrain to a new subject and be eligible to teach it to LC level.

That's what you get when you set your livelihood around satisfying an artificial demand.

nesf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's what you get when you set your livelihood around satisfying an artificial demand.

It's more problematic than that, it's Government led demand and only in the Government's power to take away. Complicating the matter hugely. Artificial demand from something like an asset bubble behaves very differently.

Iwasfrozen

nesf wrote: »

It's more problematic than that, it's Government led demand and only in the Government's power to take away. Complicating the matter hugely. Artificial demand from something like an asset bubble behaves very differently.

No one mentioned a bubble, the government artificially created these jobs when they forced students to suffer Irish. And Irish teachers capitalised on that. If the language is rightfully made optional and these teachers have to be retrained or dropped in droves I have no pity for them.

Lightbulb Sun

TeamShadowClan, "Odd Nutter?" What if a person wants to speak Irish? Since when did someone have to be a gaeltacht citizen in order to make it their primary language?

It doesn't matter whether someone is from Connemara or Tallaght, it's a national language and they are perfectly entitled to use it.

Iwasfrozen

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

TeamShadowClan, "Odd Nutter?" What if a person wants to speak Irish? Since when did someone have to be a gaeltacht citizen in order to make it their primary language?

It doesn't matter whether someone is from Connemara or Tallaght, it's a national language and they are perfectly entitled to use it.

And what of the guards right to use English?

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And what of the guards right to use English?

They are a public servant, Ie they serve the public, not the other way around, in their own private life they have every right to speak English if they want to.

nesf

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

TeamShadowClan, "Odd Nutter?" What if a person wants to speak Irish? Since when did someone have to be a gaeltacht citizen in order to make it their primary language?

It doesn't matter whether someone is from Connemara or Tallaght, it's a national language and they are perfectly entitled to use it.

Odd nutter was my usage and yes, I'd consider someone decidedly odd if they tried to force a Garda outside of the Gaeltacht to speak in Irish to them. It's very unreasonable.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

They are a public servant, Ie they serve the public, not the other way around, in their own private life they have every right to speak English if they want to.

If language rights exist (and I'm not saying they do) since when did ones profession suspend their rights?

Lord TSC

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

TeamShadowClan, "Odd Nutter?" What if a person wants to speak Irish? Since when did someone have to be a gaeltacht citizen in order to make it their primary language?

It doesn't matter whether someone is from Connemara or Tallaght, it's a national language and they are perfectly entitled to use it.

"odd nutter" was not my turn of phrase. It was the term used by the person I was replying too...

Of course everyone has a right to speak whatever language they want to, much in the same way everyone has a right not to have languages forced on them they don't want to.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Odd nutter was my usage and yes, I'd consider someone decidedly odd if they tried to force a Garda outside of the Gaeltacht to speak in Irish to them. It's very unreasonable.

Ya and Rosa Parks could have just sat at the back of the bus, but she had to be unreasonable.

Stupid people standing up for their supposed rights, nutters the lot of them.

Chips Lovell

Rosa Parks? You're actually seriously making that comparison?

VinLieger

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya and Rosa Parks could have just sat at the back of the bus, but she had to be unreasonable.

Stupid people standing up for their supposed rights, nutters the lot of them.

LOL? Seriously? Comparing one man refusing to talk in English to a Gardai with Rosa Parks refusing to change seats? Your arguments just lost all merit

Lightbulb Sun

nesf wrote: »

Odd nutter was my usage and yes, I'd consider someone decidedly odd if they tried to force a Garda outside of the Gaeltacht to speak in Irish to them. It's very unreasonable.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

"odd nutter" was not my turn of phrase. It was the term used by the person I was replying too...

Of course everyone has a right to speak whatever language they want to, much in the same way everyone has a right not to have languages forced on them they don't want to.

Apologies for the mix up there.

I just don't see how someone could be a "nutter" for speaking Irish in Ireland. If the garda can't speak Irish it's not the citizens problem.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya and Rosa Parks could have just sat at the back of the bus, but she had to be unreasonable.

Stupid people standing up for their supposed rights, nutters the lot of them.

See, going on like this is exactly why you have legions of people lining up to take shots at ye in this thread. I want to see the Irish language grow and flourish, my kids, wife and in-laws all speak it as a primary language, I'm very much invested in it. What I don't think is that forcing Gardaí to speak it when they stop you in Dublin is going to help that happen. If anything it's going to make things even harder because it paints Irish speakers as unreasonable people trying to force what is a tiny minority language on the brink of extinction be treated like it was a common language in this country.

Iwasfrozen

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Rosa Parks? You're actually seriously making that comparison?

If Rosa Parks was a criminal it might be a better............ no sorry I can't finish that sentence.

Iwasfrozen

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

I just don't see how someone could be a "nutter" for speaking Irish in Ireland. If the garda can't speak Irish it's not the citizens problem.

It is when he's arrested.

An Coilean

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL? Seriously? Comparing one man refusing to talk in English to a Gardai with Rosa Parks refusing to change seats? Your arguments just lost all merit

Is the comparrision really all that laughable? They are both relativly minor issues in their own right.

Are you really going to tell me that there werent plenty of people around at the time who would have called her a gob****e for what she did?
I'm sure there were plenty of Black people at the time who would have considered her an odd ball too.
Only through the prisim of the ensuing Civil Rights movement did attitudes change.

Its easy to dismiss civil rights you dont agree with and belittle those who stand up for them.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

See, going on like this is exactly why you have legions of people lining up to take shots at ye in this thread.

Maybe so, but there were legions of people lined up to take shots at Rosa Parks for her stand too, that does not mean she was wrong to make it.

You may not think that standing up for your language rights will help to improve the situation for the language in this country, but the Welsh language society has shown clearly that it is a very effective method.
Had they not made their stand, Welsh would not be where it is today.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Maybe so, but there were legions of people lined up to take shots at Rosa Parks for her stand too, that does not mean she was wrong to make it.

Ye'll take the language down with ye, I hope ye know that.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Ye'll take the language down with ye, I hope ye know that.

Plenty of people said that in Wales 50 years ago, it did'nt happen there, it won't happen here.
I suggest you have a look at what Saunders Lewis had to say about Welsh, then see how following his advice worked for Welsh and see what we might learn from that and apply it to Irish today.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Plenty of people said that in Wales 50 years ago, it did'nt happen there, it won't happen here.
I suggest you have a look at what Saunders Lewis had to say about Welsh, then see how following his advice worked for Welsh and see what we might learn from that and apply it to Irish today.

Welsh was never in the danger that Irish is.


Look at what they do in Wales, they grab them at 3, they start teaching them Welsh at that point almost totally by native speakers teaching correct Welsh. This is the kind of thing you do if you want bilingualism. You don't start at 5 or later when it's potentially too late. We have Naoinraí but they are few and far between.

This is the kind of thing you should be getting worked up about, not whether the Gardaí speak Irish to you or not. Give the next generation a decent chance to speak the language and you'll do an awful lot more than making a fuss over procedure amongst the Gardaí ever will.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Welsh was never in the danger that Irish is.


Look at what they do in Wales, they grab them at 3, they start teaching them Welsh at that point almost totally by native speakers teaching correct Welsh. This is the kind of thing you do if you want bilingualism. You don't start at 5 or later when it's potentially too late. We have Naoinraí but they are few and far between.

This is the kind of thing you should be getting worked up about, not whether the Gardaí speak Irish to you or not. Give the next generation a decent chance to speak the language and you'll do an awful lot more than making a fuss over procedure amongst the Gardaí ever will.

I'll make it easy for you, Saunders Lewis speaking in 1962 said of Welsh:

There have been enormous social changes in Wales in the last quarter of a century. Welsh in Wales is now a language in retreat, the language of a minority, and that a decreasing minority.

If Wales seriously demanded to have Welsh as an official language on a par with English, the opposition would not come from the Government or from the Civil Service. Naturally there would be a few muttered curses from clerks looking for a dictionary and from girl typists who were learning to spell, but their Civil Service has long since learnt to accept revolutionary changes in the British Empire as part of the daily routine. The opposition - harsh, vindictive and violent - would come from Wales.

Is the position hopeless? It is, of course, if we are content to give up hope. There is nothing in the world more comfortable than to give up hope. For then one can go on to enjoy life.

Let us set about it in seriousness and without hesitation to make it impossible for the business of local and central government to continue without using Welsh. Let it be insisted upon that the rate demand should be in Welsh or in Welsh and English. Let the Postmaster-General be warned that annual licences will not be paid unless they are obtainable in Welsh. Let it be insisted upon that every summons to a court should be in Welsh. This is not a chance policy for individuals here and there. It would demand organizing and moving step by step, giving due warning and allowing time for changes. It is a policy for a movement, and that a movement in the areas where Welsh is the spoken language in daily use. Let it be demanded that every election communication and every oflicial form relating to local or parliamentary elections should be in Welsh. Let Welsh be raised as the chief administrative issue in district and county.

Perhaps you will say that this could never be done, that not enough Welshmen could be found to agree and to organize it as a campaign of importance and strength. Perhaps you are right. All I maintain is that this is the only political matter which it is worth a Welshman's while to trouble himself about today. I know the difficulties. There would be storms from every direction. It would be argued that such a campaign was killing our chances of attracting English factories to the Welsh-speaking rural areas, and that would doubtless be the case. It is easy to predict that the scorn and sneers of the English gutter journalist would be a daily burden. The anger of local authority officials and those of many county councils would be like the blustering of those in the Llanelli Rural District. Fines in courts would be heavy, and a refusal to pay them would bring expensive consequences, though no more expensive than fighting purposeless parliamentary elections. I do not deny that there would be a period of hatred, persecution and controversy in place of the brotherly love which is so manifest in Welsh political life today. It will be nothing less than a revolution to restore the Welsh language in Wales. Success is only possible through revolutionary methods.

The Welsh Language society was founded soon after that speach was broadcast and they have been fighting for Welsh, and being sent to Jail at times for their trouble for the last 50 years. Welsh is not in the situation that Irish is in today because of their stand.