Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Coles

Lelantos wrote: »

The Irish schools being a fad is incorrect. Here in Tralee we have a secondary school that is increasingly under pressure to accept more & more pupils every year. It is now at the point where a site has been acquired to build a new school.

+1 Lelantos. There's a couple of interesting things happening from what I can see. There has been a massive baby boom over the last couple of years and more and more parents are choosing to set up Gaelscoileanna. And when that has been achieved they are then pushing for the establishment of Irish speaking secondary schools.

Anyone who looks at the graph and says that the growth is anything to do with the Celtic Tiger mush be a bit dim.

But the gang here wants to kill the language! Oh dear Jesus.:rolleyes:

Lightbulb Sun

Lelantos wrote: »

The Irish schools being a fad is incorrect. Here in Tralee we have a secondary school that is increasingly under pressure to accept more & more pupils every year. It is now at the point where a site has been acquired to build a new school.

Very true. My mother is a teacher in an Irish language primary school and the demand is as high as you are implying for the secondary school in Tralee.

Coles

gnfnrhead wrote: »

I seen you caught out alright, but thats it unless I missed it.

Oh? Did I miss that? Link please.

Like I said, even if it is inflated it is still a massive amount of money, that we cant afford, going to waste.

You are swallowing another persons crap and vomiting it up again.

ZeitgeistGlee

Lelantos wrote: »

The Irish schools being a fad is incorrect. Here in Tralee we have a secondary school that is increasingly under pressure to accept more & more pupils every year. It is now at the point where a site has been acquired to build a new school.

Uhuh, so one school being an outlier/exception to the general trend (as suggested by Coles's figures) disproves the trend itself.

Using the graph provided by Coles over the last six years (2007-2012), particularly the last three there has been comparatively fractional growth of Irish language schools whether Primary or Secondary to the preceding six years (2001-2006) and even less so again to the six years before that (1995-2000). In general statistical terms we can therefore say the trend has levelled off.

Given this growth period occurred concurrently to the Celtic Tiger boom years and levelled with the recession there is a likely correlation between the two.

Lelantos

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Uhuh, so one school being an outlier/exception to the general trend (as suggested by Coles's figures) disproves the trend itself.

Using the graph provided by Coles over the last six years (2007-2012), particularly the last three there has been comparatively fractional growth of Irish language schools whether Primary or Secondary to the preceding six years (2001-2006) and even less so again to the six years before that (1995-2000). In general statistical terms we can therefore say the trend has levelled off.

Given this growth period occurred concurrently to the Celtic Tiger boom years and levelled with the recession there is a likely correlation between the two.

It's the same with the primary school here actually, and interestingly enough, a small number of African & Asian children have enrolled in the last few years, not interested in whatever little contest you lot are involved in, was just stating the facts in my own area

ZeitgeistGlee

Coles wrote: »

+1 Lelantos. There's a couple of interesting things happening from what I can see. There has been a massive baby boom over the last couple of years and more and more parents are choosing to set up Gaelscoileanna. And when that has been achieved they are then pushing for the establishment of Irish speaking secondary schools.

Your own data contracts this.

Coles wrote: »

Anyone who looks at the graph and says that the growth is anything to do with the Celtic Tiger mush be a bit dim.

:rolleyes:

Coles wrote: »

But the gang here wants to kill the language! Oh dear Jesus.:rolleyes:

Of course we do, I've secretly sent telegrams to Westminster offering Her Majesty marriage to our the President in order to secure a political alliance. It's the first step to full reunification with glorious Britannia.

Lelantos wrote: »

It's the same with the primary school here actually, and interestingly enough, a small number of African & Asian children have enrolled in the last few years, not interested in whatever little contest you lot are involved in

Given the secondary school has to expand I'd be actually surprised if the primary didn't unless it was comparatively larger to begin with. Logically an influx of students into the primary would lead to a requirement for the secondary to expand to cope.

Lelantos wrote: »

was just stating the facts in my own area

Except that you phrased it in a way challenging the veracity of my post.

Lelantos

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Your own data contracts this.



:rolleyes:



Of course we do, I've secretly sent telegrams to Westminster offering Her Majesty marriage to our the President in order to secure a political alliance. It's the first step to full reunification with glorious Britannia.



Given the secondary school has to expand I'd be actually surprised if the primary didn't unless it was comparatively larger to begin with. Logically an influx of students into the primary would lead to a requirement for the secondary to expand to cope.



Except that you phrased it in a way challenging the veracity of my post.

Well describing Irish schools as a fad is clearly incorrect, the rest of your post doesn't concern me.

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

Could you provide a link to your source please. A spoofer has already been caught out on this one...

Here's a good read. A well sourced breakdown of the cost of promoting the Irish Language.

Well sourced breakdown? :pac: I'm the spoofer? Riiight, so I said this? "[TG4's] budget is composed of advertising revenue, program sales, a portion of TV licence money and a modest grant from the general budget". Eh no, you did and were proven completely and utterly wrong as over 30 Million comes from the government in direct funding(with another 10 odd of indirect funding/support from RTE), advertising and other revenues make up a tiny proportion of their overall budget. Not exactly value for money for 2% market share. Well not unless it's promoting the Irish language, but according to you it's not, it's just a TV station that happens to be in Irish...

Coles wrote: »

There's a lot of hate in this thread. And excuses. Sh!t excuses for laziness.

You're like a broken record. You're seeing hate and chavs and morons etc but that's all about you.

Meanwhile...



Do Wibbs and the gang feel threatened? You really shouldn't.

You're right. Even if people were hellbent on hating the language(which is a tiny amount out there) a niche area of 200 odd schools (according to that graph) would hardly be "threatening" ranged against the 4000 odd schools educating as Bearla.

Meh I've run out of troll food and the circular "arguments" are boring so I'm outa here.

Lightbulb Sun

Wibbs wrote: »

Well sourced breakdown? :pac: I'm the spoofer? Riiight, so I said this? "[TG4's] budget is composed of advertising revenue, program sales, a portion of TV licence money and a modest grant from the general budget". Eh no, you did and were proven completely and utterly wrong as over 30 Million comes from the government in direct funding(with another 10 odd of indirect funding/support from RTE), advertising and other revenues make up a tiny proportion of their overall budget. Not exactly value for money for 2% market share. Well not unless it's promoting the Irish language, but according to you it's not, it's just a TV station that happens to be in Irish...



You're right. Even if people were hellbent on hating the language(which is a tiny amount out there) a niche area of 200 odd schools (according to that graph) would hardly be "threatening" ranged against the 4000 odd schools educating as Bearla.

Meh I've run out of troll food and the circular "arguments" are boring so I'm outa here.

I wouldn't begrudge TG4 that money in any way. They do a good job on their very limited budget.


Niche? Did you not read the points reiterated several times just recently in the thread about the demand for places in Irish schools?

Coles

Wibbs wrote: »

...I'm outa here.

It's been good. If nothing else you learned when the Ice Age ended.

Lord TSC

RE: The Gaelscoileannas...

Tbh, I think it's more attributed to a rise in the number of kids needing schooling than it is any desire to send kids to Irish schools over English ones.

To offer an example of my area, there was one primary school which was so full, they were literally having to turn kids away. A second opened, a Gaelscoil and it filled up very quickly, mainly down to the fact it could take most of the kids in the area who had to choose between it or a pretty hefty journey to the next school.

There's actually a severe shortage of schools at the moment, not helped by the fact more and more teachers are finding posts disappearing. At a time when the population requires extra schools, the Gaelscoils have provided that relief to the education sector, hence the growing "trend". I would imagine if figures could be found that it would be shown the trend was across ALL primary schools, not just the Irish-based ones...

ZeitgeistGlee

Lelantos wrote: »

Well describing Irish schools as a fad is clearly incorrect, the rest of your post doesn't concern me.

Prove it, using national examples (such as Coles's graph) rather than local ones. I could say the fact the Gaelscoil in my local area had less starting last September than they did the previous would perfectly indicates my point that interest in them is declining.

If Irish schools weren't a fad then how do you explain the stagnation in the numbers of schools opening in the last six years versus the twelve beforehand?

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

Niche? Did you not read the points reiterated several times just recently in the thread about the demand for places in Irish schools?

200 out of 4200 (overall numbers of schools, English and Irish speaking) amounts to less than 5%, that's niche by definition.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

Cleaning them or selling lottery tickets?

Does it matter? According to you, all that's needed is the proximity.

If you were expected to fly the plane they would try to train you to do it. Like when you're educated in a school?

They may have expected it of me. I have no idea. Like primary school, they end not to communicate with me unless I do something wrong and I tend not to listen unless I need to.

Coles

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Prove it, using national examples (such as Coles's graph) rather than local ones. I could say the fact the Gaelscoil in my local area had less starting last September than they did the previous would perfectly indicates my point that interest in them is declining.

If Irish schools weren't a fad then how do you explain the stagnation in the numbers of schools opening in the last six years versus the twelve beforehand?

200 out of 4200 (overall numbers of schools, English and Irish speaking) amounts to less than 5%, that's niche by definition.

Very interesting link.

It's all Department of Education data too.

Lightbulb Sun

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Prove it, using national examples (such as Coles's graph) rather than local ones. I could say the fact the Gaelscoil in my local area had less starting last September than they did the previous would perfectly indicates my point that interest in them is declining.

If Irish schools weren't a fad then how do you explain the stagnation in the numbers of schools opening in the last six years versus the twelve beforehand?



200 out of 4200 (overall numbers of schools, English and Irish speaking) amounts to less than 5%, that's niche by definition.

It's relative to its spoken popularity as a language. My point was that it's not niche by demand.

You could say it's a fad, but after the Celtic Tiger years gaelscoileanna are still being built and are in demand.

The country being in a recession does not mean building schools in the Tiger era was a "fad". There isn't as much money there across the board regardless of the language spoken in the school.

ZeitgeistGlee

Coles wrote: »

It's all Department of Education data too.

And I'm sure you'll be perfectly happy to provide a link to that data that I can indepedently assess. :rolleyes:

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

Very interesting link.

It's all Department of Education data too.

you've linked to a photo of a distressed schoolchild, forced to speak Irish....?
I

marienbad

Maybe I am just not great at reading graphs , but to me it seems that the number of schools seem to be a constant % over the decades,

Do we have actual numbers instead of graphics ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

marienbad wrote: »

Maybe I am just not great at reading graphs , but to me it seems that the number of schools seem to be a constant % over the decades,

Do we have actual numbers instead of graphics ?

It also says "the reaction of boards.ie" over a number of years in about 60% of which boards.ie didn't exist. Even when he's trying to take the piss, he can't get it right!

Lelantos

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

RE: The Gaelscoileannas...

Tbh, I think it's more attributed to a rise in the number of kids needing schooling than it is any desire to send kids to Irish schools over English ones.

To offer an example of my area, there was one primary school which was so full, they were literally having to turn kids away. A second opened, a Gaelscoil and it filled up very quickly, mainly down to the fact it could take most of the kids in the area who had to choose between it or a pretty hefty journey to the next school.

There's actually a severe shortage of schools at the moment, not helped by the fact more and more teachers are finding posts disappearing. At a time when the population requires extra schools, the Gaelscoils have provided that relief to the education sector, hence the growing "trend". I would imagine if figures could be found that it would be shown the trend was across ALL primary schools, not just the Irish-based ones...

All I can say is that in my area, its the opposite. The secondary school is inundated with applicants every year, coming from non gaelscoileanna. It isn't because of overcrowding in other schools as the technical college nearly closed because of lack of numbers. The reality is, and I'm not getting involved in any stupid arguments, that the language is very popular here. Yes, Kerry has a Gaeltacht, it is a huge influence on people's thinking here re the language but a sizeable percentage of students attending the secondary come from ordinary schools. The secondary is increasing its first year intake by approx 12-15 students each year, which is remarkable since the school I attended over 20 years ago, which has a good academic history has actually dipped in numbers over the last 8-10 years. I suppose it does come down somewhat to geography, if you're based in crumlin, perhaps Irish & gaelscoileanna aren't high on your priority list, but if you're educated in more rural parts, yes it is. I'm not a fan of these threads as it gets very "west brit hates Ireland v stuck in the past, dead language advocate" A compromise has to be found, there is recently a sharp change in practice re learning Irish in primary schools. Children being familiarised with the spoken word, nothing written,nothing to be learned off by heart. Just familiarizing themselves with the sounds of the language, if this works, perhaps it could lead to a different outlook upon the language for the next generation.

Coles

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It also says "the reaction of boards.ie" over a number of years in about 60% of which boards.ie didn't exist. Even when he's trying to take the piss, he can't get it right!

Does it? Where does it say that. If actually says 'Reaction on Boards.ie'.

Ouch.

But Hey! Let's discuss the graph.

Coles

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

And I'm sure you'll be perfectly happy to provide a link to that data that I can indepedently assess. :rolleyes:

Why the rolling eyes? I genuinely thought you and the gang would appreciate all the work I'm doing.

Anyhoo. The data is available from the Department of Education. If you need more help just shout.

Coles

Lelantos wrote: »

There is recently a sharp change in practice re learning Irish in primary schools. Children being familiarised with the spoken word, nothing written,nothing to be learned off by heart. Just familiarizing themselves with the sounds of the language, if this works, perhaps it could lead to a different outlook upon the language for the next generation.

+1. This is exactly it. I still think there is going to be a lot of resistance by a generation of parents who have a very poisonous attitude towards the language. Very difficult to overcome that, but they are becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Lord TSC

Lelantos wrote: »

there is recently a sharp change in practice re learning Irish in primary schools. Children being familiarised with the spoken word, nothing written,nothing to be learned off by heart. Just familiarizing themselves with the sounds of the language, if this works, perhaps it could lead to a different outlook upon the language for the next generation.

I think you'll find that many on "my side" of the argument have been advocating changes in the way it's taught, and you seem to be saying that those changes are already being implemented somewhat in your area, and working.

I hope this is true. You'll notice quite a few of us calling for changes to the way it's taught in schools (and being told all we have to change is our attitude, not the way it's taught). I personally agree that there needs to be more focus on the spoken word so am glad to hear that at least somewhere, someone has had the insight to start working towards a change...

Lelantos

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I think you'll find that many on "my side" of the argument have been advocating changes in the way it's taught, and you seem to be saying that those changes are already being implemented somewhat in your area, and working.

I hope this is true. You'll notice quite a few of us calling for changes to the way it's taught in schools (and being told all we have to change is our attitude, not the way it's taught). I personally agree that there needs to be more focus on the spoken word so am glad to hear that at least somewhere, someone has had the insight to start working towards a change...

I steer clear of the my side & your side issues, it does no good for my blood pressure
But, I think things like all gardai needing to be fluent in Irish as being silly, but, if you serve in a Gaeltacht area, yes, you have to be able to speak to the locals in their language. I come from an unusual enough background where I had no preconceptions passed onto me by my parents re Irish (positive or negative) I wasn't born here, but took to the language & loved learning it. Yes, I had some rubbish teachers, but I did so in other subjects too. It isn't the easiest language to learn admittedly, but I found it rewarding to do so. In my line of work I converse with native speakers, not because I have to, but because I want to. I even do so at home with my children, if I give them a drink, I'll say deoch as I hand it to them, it gives them an enjoyment of the language, they pick it up quickly enough, sponges soaking info & all that. Personally I hope the curriculum is changed to reflect where Irish should be going, as to where its been. The likes of Peig etc aren't going to capture anyones imagination anymore (if it ever did) There needs to be newer material, newer teaching methods ( like the Newell programme ) on English, make it interesting for kids, Christ, the last thing I want is for people to view Irish the same way I viewed Latin, an unbearable chore.

opti0nal

Lelantos wrote: »

Personally I hope the curriculum is changed to reflect where Irish should be going, as to where its been. The likes of Peig etc aren't going to capture anyones imagination anymore (if it ever did) There needs to be newer material, newer teaching methods...

As long as Irish is compulsory there is no incentive for the system to attract children to speaking or learning Irish. The classes are guaranteed to be full, no matter how awful the curriculum. Additionally, pupils who do wish to learn Irish will be held back by those who don't and who resent being forced to speak Irish.

An Coilean

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

You've posted that two or three times now and the general response has always been that the numbers shot up with the Celtic Tiger and then levelled off with the recession implying that Irish schools were just another fad during the good times rather than the grand Irish revival movement in full swing.

Actually, that is a myth.

The rate of new Gaelscoils opening was as high if not higher before the boom than during it, also the reason it leveled off around 2008 was that at that time the government flat out refused to open any more new Gaelscoils despite demand in several areas, their excuse was that they wanted to review the criteria for establishing a Gaelscoil, despite this one group went ahead and established a Gaelscoil without state support. The Government has since relented and allowed new Gaelscoileanna to be opened, despite stricter conditions being in place, new Gaelscoils opened this year and more will be opening next September, about a quarter of all new schools planned to open over the next few years will be Irish medium.

awec

An Coilean wrote: »

The guy really touched a nerve with you guys didn't he, the amount of petty abuse and name calling for simply choosing to speak Irish is shocking.

If people are turned of a language because of someone politely but firmly choosing to speak it, I very much doubt they had much interest in the first place.

I would have thought that speaking English with an English speaking Garda would just have been the decent thing to do (unless the guy couldn't actually speak English, which I doubt).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

Does it? Where does it say that. If actually says 'Reaction on Boards.ie'.

Ouch.

But Hey! Let's discuss the graph.

You created it, we've every right to ridicule it!

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

... new Gaelscoils opened this year and more will be opening next September, about a quarter of all new schools planned to open over the next few years will be Irish medium.

In the light of this development which provides for people who do wish their children to speak Irish, will it now be allowed that other children will no longer be forced into Irish language lessons?