Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Larbre34

An Coimisinéir Teanga is at it again, forcing an Irish language awareness programme on the Gardaí, a force so stretched and weary they have barely the time and resources to fulfil their role in English, never mind find the time to learn operational Irish.

All told, An Coimisinéir forces a huge amount of wasted expenditure on state bodies, in terms of signage, reports and publications, made available for a population where 95% of the functional language is English.

So, in this time of belt-tightening, is An Coimisinéir a luxury we can afford? Would the money be better spent encouraging the use and love of the first official language willingly and voluntarily, rather than forcibly?

My name is URL

Tá

Seaneh

Níl.

Terry1985

scrudaitheoir

Irishstabber

An bhfuil cead agam... You know the rest...

My name is URL

Irishstabber wrote: »

An bhfuil cead agam... You know the rest...

dull giddy on lacrosse?

kowloon

Any more details on this programme?

Pilotdude5

Irish sounds like a cat choking on a hairball.

I will achieve my dream of "One species, one language" someday....

tdv123

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo

He's talking about Scottish Gaelic but still makes sense.

Lelantos

Oh a debate about the usefulness (or not) of the Irish language, there hasn't been one of these on boards before!

GarIT

I thought we were going to get a commissioner that was going to get the Irish language scrapped.

adocholiday

I say get rid of it full stop. Irish is a dying language with no practical purpose. The fact that it is still mandatory in schools is bloody ridiculous, never mind the Gardai having to re-learn it! We need to move with the times, kids should be taught languages that are actually useful (German or Mandarin for example) as well as bringing in proper classes in Computers/Networking/Programming which is another argument entirely.

I currently work in the public sector and every publication has to be run past our own internal 'Irish translator' to put into Irish. It's madness and the people who choose to conduct all of their business through Irish are just arseholes if you ask me. We live in an English speaking country - deal with it.

laoch na mona

why does ireland have such a colonial inferiority complex that we cannot embrace our culture

GarIT

adocholiday wrote: »

I say get rid of it full stop. Irish is a dying language with no practical purpose.

So is that +1 for my 'Scrap the Irish Language' commissioner?

My name is URL

adocholiday wrote: »

The fact that it is still mandatory in schools is bloody rediculous

We live in an English speaking country - deal with it.

Well.. you say that!

adocholiday

GarIT wrote: »

So is that +1 for my 'Scrap the Irish Language' commissioner?

Yes

Chips Lovell

laoch na mona wrote: »

why does ireland have such a colonial inferiority complex that we cannot embrace our culture

It's a good question. To be honest I think there's a large degree of sentimentality attached to the Irish language and, among the zealots, the belief that speaking English makes us less Irish or even more British, which I suppose is comparable to an inferiority complex.

greenflash

laoch na mona wrote: »

why does ireland have such a colonial inferiority complex that we cannot embrace our culture

'Colonial inferiority complex'?

Why do sections of modern Irish society have problems with accepting the realities of being a modern, progressive nation?

Skid X

Coimisinéir Seán Ó Cuirreáin said he was struck by the fact that gardaí who had been educated to Leaving Cert level and completed training in Templemore were unable to ask a driver "cad is ainm duit?" or seek his address through Irish.ans

On foot of the investigation, gardaí are to receive a laminated card with useful Irish phrases to ensure they can conduct some business through Irish.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0312/376254-garda-irish-language/

What's the Irish for 'Stop acting like a Gob****e and answer the Garda in English'?

Stupid pointless waste of resources.

gobnaitolunacy

'In one instance an Irish speaker who had been stopped for a minor road traffic matter in Dublin was arrested and detained until a garda was found to deal with him through Irish.'

FFS that's just being a dick.

ZeitgeistGlee

There are better things the money could be spent on, scrap it.

tdv123 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo

He's talking about Scottish Gaelic but still makes sense.

Good video and sums up my thoughts but Christ above those dead eyes make him look so creepy. :pac:

laoch na mona wrote: »

why does ireland have such a colonial inferiority complex that we cannot embrace our culture

And why do certain elements of the population feel compelled to consistently push their interpretation of "our culture" onto the rest irrespective of whether they're willingly or otherwise?

laoch na mona

greenflash wrote: »

'Colonial inferiority complex'?

Why do sections of modern Irish society have problems with accepting the realities of being a modern, progressive nation?

im not advocating a backwards way of life just simple saying that our culture should not be a source of shame.

however being a colony leads to a sense of cultural inferiority which has become internalised by the post colonial society

Dionysius2

There is no excuse whatsoever for the basic street Guard (as distinct from technician) not to have a few lines of the most fundamental rudimentary lines of Gaelic to enable him to cope with those who wish to exercise their most basic right, ie speak their own mother tongue. God knows billions of taxpayers cash have been spent overall on the revitalisation of the teanga since the foundation of the state and those who came through the national & secondary school system were immersed in it for significant portions of their formative years so what the hell does that say about them that they cannot ask a person for his/her name & address in Irish afterwards? No doubt lots of them can do the business in Irish but there seems to be a few lame ducks.

But that's yet another 15 rounder for another day.

There is a Malaysian girl who serves coffee in a hostelry near where I live and when I congratulated her for (part Englis/part Gaelic) wearing the shamrock and Naoimh Padraig pic this morning, she replied in Gaelic, not perfect but clearly Gaelic nonetheless.
And that girl has been in the country less than 3 years !

krudler

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

'In one instance an Irish speaker who had been stopped for a minor road traffic matter in Dublin was arrested and detained until a garda was found to deal with him through Irish.'

FFS that's just being a dick.

That kind of sh1t wrecks my head, and does the Irish speakers no favours, talk about a waste of time and resources. Same as government documents having to be made available in Irish, for the miniscule percentage of people who will ever read them.

ZeitgeistGlee

laoch na mona wrote: »

im not advocating a backwards way of life just simple saying that our culture should not be a source of shame.

however being a colony leads to a sense of cultural inferiority which has become internalised by the post colonial society

Who's saying it's a source of shame other than you? Most objections to Irish being mandatory that I've seen are based purely on practicality and pragmatism yet the responses are almost always worded as "Why do you hate Irish culture". :rolleyes:

laoch na mona

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Who's saying it's a source of shame other than you? Most objections to Irish being mandatory that I've seen are based purely on practicality and pragmatism yet the responses are almost always worded as "Why do you hate Irish culture". :rolleyes:

thats why its been abandoned it is viewed as backwards and useless which stems from a colonial image of the speakers of irish

ok to be practical i as a person have human rights key to that is freedom of expression which means i can chose to use a language which is connected to the culture i identify with

laoch na mona

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

'In one instance an Irish speaker who had been stopped for a minor road traffic matter in Dublin was arrested and detained until a garda was found to deal with him through Irish.'

FFS that's just being a dick.

he was well within his rights outlined in European law

Leroy42

Slightly OT, but what really wrecks my head is when you are going through a Gaeltacht area all the signs are in Irish. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they shouldn't be in Irish, but how come all the english language signs also have Irish on them but then we just do away with that in the Gaeltacht.

Seems as if they can assert they rights to their language but for some reason I, as a non speaking Irishman, must stay out of the Gaeltacht or be made feel stupid.

Gambas

laoch na mona wrote: »

why does ireland have such a colonial inferiority complex that we cannot embrace our culture

The inferiority complex lies with those that are ashamed of their first language, and the common customs of their country. You seem to be mistaking 'our culture' with the culture of an Ireland that never existed.

Larbre34

Lelantos wrote: »

Oh a debate about the usefulness (or not) of the Irish language, there hasn't been one of these on boards before!

No, a poll on the usefulness/necessity/mission of An Coimisinéir. Personally I enjoy speaking Irish when I can and I envy those who are fluent.

gobnaitolunacy

laoch na mona wrote: »

he was well within his rights outlined in European law

That may be so, but he's still acting the dick in a time-wasting exercise making some obscure point.

It's not as if he came out of a time warp from the 19th century.

(maybe he thought he was in The Wind That Shakes The Barley and the Gardai were Black & Tans???)

Chips Lovell

Leroy42 wrote: »

Slightly OT, but what really wrecks my head is when you are going through a Gaeltacht area all the signs are in Irish. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they shouldn't be in Irish, but how come all the english language signs also have Irish on them but then we just do away with that in the Gaeltacht.

Seems as if they can assert they rights to their language but for some reason I, as a non speaking Irishman, must stay out of the Gaeltacht or be made feel stupid.

Bugs me too. Especially when you consider who the signs are most useful to, namely people who don't live there.

And there's uproar if you have signs in English only, like the fiasco over the Dublin Bus displays.

opinion guy

Dionysius2 wrote: »

There is no excuse whatsoever for the basic street Guard (as distinct from technician) not to have a few lines of the most fundamental rudimentary lines of Gaelic to enable him to cope with those who wish to exercise their most basic right, ie speak their own mother tongue. God knows billions of taxpayers cash have been spent overall on the revitalisation of the teanga since the foundation of the state and those who came through the national & secondary school system were immersed in it for significant portions of their formative years so what the hell does that say about them that they cannot ask a person for his/her name & address in Irish afterwards? No doubt lots of them can do the business in Irish but there seems to be a few lame ducks.

Would you ever give over? a) The avergae Garda should know the law, not be a linguistic expert - if some of them know languages and some should then well and good - but Irish is about the least useful one for them to learn - thousands of people in this country speak Polish, Russian etc and don't speak English at all - let the Gardai learn something actually useful to their job b) not all guards grew up in Ireland.

I note you used the English Guard instead of Garda by the way....tut tut :rolleyes:

laoch na mona

Gambas wrote: »

never existed.

really it has been pointed out that one of the reasons the united irishmen failed was that they only produced propaganda in english

Gambas

Leroy42 wrote: »

Slightly OT, but what really wrecks my head is when you are going through a Gaeltacht area all the signs are in Irish. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they shouldn't be in Irish, but how come all the english language signs also have Irish on them but then we just do away with that in the Gaeltacht.

Seems as if they can assert they rights to their language but for some reason I, as a non speaking Irishman, must stay out of the Gaeltacht or be made feel stupid.

Traffic signs are English only in almost all the country and Irish only in the Gaeltacht. Placenames are in Irish only in Gaeltacht places where an English version of the name is little more than phonetics. Hard to see a problem with that.

It's a bit extreme getting the feeling you should stay out of the place. I don't think that is a normal reaction.

krudler

Dionysius2 wrote: »

There is no excuse whatsoever for the basic street Guard (as distinct from technician) not to have a few lines of the most fundamental rudimentary lines of Gaelic to enable him to cope with those who wish to exercise their most basic right, ie speak their own mother tongue. God knows billions of taxpayers cash have been spent overall on the revitalisation of the teanga since the foundation of the state and those who came through the national & secondary school system were immersed in it for significant portions of their formative years so what the hell does that say about them that they cannot ask a person for his/her name & address in Irish afterwards? No doubt lots of them can do the business in Irish but there seems to be a few lame ducks.

But that's yet another 15 rounder for another day.

There is a Malaysian girl who serves coffee in a hostelry near where I live and when I congratulated her for (part Englis/part Gaelic) wearing the shamrock and Naoimh Padraig pic this morning, she replied in Gaelic, not perfect but clearly Gaelic nonetheless.
And that girl has been in the country less than 3 years !

I'd wager there are, or were, more Polish speakers than Irish in this country, should the guards be able to speak their languages too?

gobnaitolunacy

Gambas wrote: »

Traffic signs are English only in almost all the country and Irish only in the Gaeltacht. Placenames are in Irish only in Gaeltacht places where an English version of the name is little more than phonetics. Hard to see a problem with that.

It's a bit extreme getting the feeling you should stay out of the place. I don't think that is a normal reaction.

I think you'll find they're bilingual.

And how is a foreign tourist (or even someone with barely remembered school boy Gaelige) supposed to 'guess' where they are using phoentics?? Or when the Irish version doesn't remotely resemble the English name?

I suppose it ok for the locals as they don't need the signs anyway, they already know the place

laoch na mona

laoch na mona wrote: »

thats why its been abandoned it is viewed as backwards and useless which stems from a colonial image of the speakers of irish

Why does Irish being viewed as backwards and useless have to "stem from a colonial image"? It is backwards and useless. As in, nobody speaks it.

ZeitgeistGlee

laoch na mona wrote: »

thats why its been abandoned it is viewed as backwards and useless which stems from a colonial image of the speakers of irish

Or seeing as we've been a free and independent nation for more than three generations at this point, with mandatory education in Irish from the beginning of formal education until university, that the "colonial image" argument has long since died and that Irish simply cannot survive on its own merits as a language irrespective of its part in "our culture".

There is a reason why the retention of Irish beyond secondary school level is appalling by any standard of measure and it has little to do with children having it drilled into their head that colonists should not speak their own language.

laoch na mona wrote: »

ok to be practical i as a person have human rights key to that is freedom of expression which means i can chose to use a language which is connected to the culture i identify with

You may, but that does not entitle you to force other people to speak that language against their will (individuals such as myself) or have disproportionate and vast sums dedicated to the mandatory education of that language so you can express yourself in the language you see fit to use.

If another person does not speak the language you wish to use as your primary tongue (in this case Irish), then you must either make the choice to use a language that you both speak (pragmatism and practicality) or forego conversation entirely. No person has the right to force another person to communicate in a means which pleases them.

Andrew_Doran

laoch na mona wrote: »

we cannot embrace our culture

To imply that there is only a single true culture on the island, one that is fixed and unchanging, is to have a startlingly narrow interpretation of our history, as imparted by the school history curriculum and forced teaching of Irish in schools.

Grand Moff Tarkin

A dead and useless language which i never thankfully had to use once i left school.

ZeitgeistGlee

Gambas wrote: »

Traffic signs are English only in almost all the country and Irish only in the Gaeltacht. Placenames are in Irish only in Gaeltacht places where an English version of the name is little more than phonetics. Hard to see a problem with that.

It's a bit extreme getting the feeling you should stay out of the place. I don't think that is a normal reaction.

As others have said traffic signs in practically everywhere outside the Gaeltacht are bilingual. And for those of us who no longer recall Irish to a usable degree phonetics are useless because even if we could make out the word we wouldn't understand it.

If you can't comprehend the signs, and therefore cannot get to where you're going then how else could you feel but unwelcome?

I've heard some rather unpleasant stories from people who've got lost in Gaeltachts and had people pretty much blank them unless they fumble in Irish trying to ask how to get to their destination.

The Black Oil

Stunts like this are a waste of time and resources, and do the language's reputation no favours. We should stop pushing agencies and other bodies to revamp the language. FWIW, I don't think the likes of Hector are the answer, either. I don't think it's a dead language (maybe in some sort of coma) as such, it's been kicked around a bit and is also a sacred cow in some respects. From my time in school, the curriculum needed a kick up the rear and the language should grow and recover from there (should be the only top down approach applied to the language) and other grassroots efforts, not authorities and the like. Garda management should have told the language commissioner where to go.

Lelantos

Larbre34 wrote: »

No, a poll on the usefulness/necessity/mission of An Coimisinéir. Personally I enjoy speaking Irish when I can and I envy those who are fluent.

It's already descended into a pro/anti language "debate" it seems that whenever the Irish language is mentioned it completely polarises opinion. I enjoy the language, I'm fairly fluent because I get a chance to use it, I'm all in favour of the language, but I don't see the need for my local garda to be fluent. If they can speak a little, great! But our country now has a huge Polish population, maybe some have joined the gardai,,maybe some are thinking of joining, can we force them to learn Irish in order to do a job?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One would imagine that the good commissioner, if the victim of a crime, would be passing onthe details as fast as possible. And if this require English, I'm sure he'd want the Gardai on their way as fast as possible and would take the nessecary action to do so.

Scrap him? No. But a certain degree of practicallity would be strongl advised.

ZeitgeistGlee

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

To imply that there is only a single true culture on the island, one that is fixed and unchanging, is to have a startlingly narrow interpretation of our history, as imparted by the school history curriculum and forced teaching of Irish in schools.

Agreed. The level of bias which exists within our education system is saddening.

I remember having a conversation with one of my Irish teachers (a native of the Gaeltacht) a good few years ago about whether or not Irish language curriculum should be modernised to render it more useful/appreciable to students (in the same way European/other foreign languages are). Her response was, shall I say, less than entirely courteous and I was accused of wanting to destroy Irish history and culture.

Conversely pretty much every language academic I know in university acknowledges that for a language to remain used or grow within a small population, it must modernise.

ZeitgeistGlee

Lelantos wrote: »

can we force them to learn Irish in order to do a job?

Can we? Yes. Should we? Now that's the question.

May I ask, what would your stance (and anyone else willing to answer) of requiring Gardaí to be able to communicate in all major foreign languages used in Ireland at the moment?

Gambas

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I think you'll find they're bilingual.

Please post a picture of a bilingual Yield sign.

And how is a foreign tourist (or even someone with barely remembered school boy Gaelige) supposed to 'guess' where they are using phoentics?? Or when the Irish version doesn't remotely resemble the English name?

I suppose it ok for the locals as they don't need the signs anyway, they already know the place

What English name? Aside from Dingle there isn't a single place in any Gaeltacht I can think of where the 'English' name isn't a phonetic spelling of the Irish name. Tourists seem to manage fine. Our propensity for having sign posts that point the wrong way and generally poor signage seems to annoy them though.

Chips Lovell

Gambas wrote: »

Tourists seem to manage fine.

No they don't. I've come across several Spanish and French people visiting here who said they found it confusing with the names on signs not matching maps.

Christ, I even find it confusing visiting places like Dingle and Achill when all of sudden the place names I was familiar with aren't on signs any more. And I did Irish in school.

awec

How many Irish people can't actually speak English? I'm sure there are some but surely not that many?

krudler

Gambas wrote: »

Please post a picture of a bilingual Yield sign.

if you're an Irish speaker and don't know what yield means you shouldn't be on the road. there's that pedantry again.