Mr Whirly wrote: » I worked in a shop in Monkstown years ago and there was a Cumann na Something located around the corner. The attendees used to insist on speaking in Irish to the staff
fasttalkerchat wrote: » He probably was just on the wind up. But, what if it was Connemara? In an Irish speaking region it would have been rude for the Garda to speak only English. In Dublin, while English is the first language its still Ireland. Is it really that mental that someone opts only to use their national language?
awec wrote: » Are you worried that without Irish being forced on children that it would die out completely as a spoken language everywhere on this island except the most ardent Gaeltacht areas?
An Coilean wrote: » Well for one thing, monolingual Irish speakers do exist, some parents raise their kids through Irish only and let them learn English later in school.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » Oh please, there's no way a child could spend five years growing up in Ireland and not speak English.
Iwasfrozen wrote: » What about tv? And the outside world? Do these children not play with other children? Do they not go to playgroup?
An Coilean wrote: » At a very young age, 0 - 18 months, no children hardly ever play with other children unless they have brothers and sisters. At this stage, their contact with other people is with their parents for the vast majority of the time. By the time they do start having contact with other children in playgroups, their first language is already established. Even when they get to playing with other children, its not like there are no Irish language playgroups in the country.
nesf wrote: » Both my kids are native Irish speakers, when they play together it's normally through English, when my daughter plays with her dolls, she talks to them through English. Outside of talking to my wife and her family they don't use Irish. The "primary" language gets overridden very quickly once their interactions in a certain area (here play) are primarily through English. This is normal for bilingual children. Also with my son, he's older at six, if someone comes up to him (and he doesn't know/recognise them) and speaks Irish to him he'll respond in English for a good 10 minutes before switching over to Irish. He's so used to random people only speaking English that he defaults to that.
An Coilean wrote: » You raised your children with Irish and English, fair play. While the children are fluent in both languages, one or the other will become the default language, though not always the same one for different areas. That is normal for bilingual families and is what you described above. However that does not take away from the fact that there are families where the children do not have much English.
An Coilean wrote: » However that does not take away from the fact that there are families where the children do not have much English.
Teamshadowclan wrote: » Now, that said, I still think such people would be solely in the minority of the already minority group who can speak fluent Irish, and I don't think any agenda should be based on such a small, small group of people.
nesf wrote: » That and there's no advantage to bringing the kids up solely through Irish anyway, just as there's no advantage to bringing them up solely through English. I recognise that it's a natural choice for two Irish native speakers to do this but I worry that they're doing their child a disservice by neglecting English when the child will very much need it early on in life if they live outside of a Gaeltacht.
gobnaitolunacy wrote: » Wouldn't they need Irish to get all the 'grants' and to get them a nice job translating the myriad goverment docs that everyones going to read?
nesf wrote: » In a Gaeltacht area I think that is quite appropriate, outside of a Gaeltacht I don't think it is. When those children go to school (or preschool through Irish) they won't be with other native speakers if you're outside the Gaeltacht. My son was the only native speaker in his class, he needed English to play and talk to the other students, the early years in a Gaelscoil are not solely through Irish after all.
An Coilean wrote: » I don't think its inappropriate to raise your child through Irish anywhere in Ireland. You are right about sending your child to a Gaelscoil if you live outside the Gaeltacht though. Some parents actually say that their childs Irish got worse when they went to a Gaelscoil because of picking up broken Irish from other children. Personally I would raise my child through Irish and then send them to an English medium school, at least at primary level, second language immersion with English being the second language.
VinLieger wrote: » ...except for Coles who is seems to be just trolling at this stage...
...specifically Coles who claims because i dont want to speak a language and have no interest in learning it im not "really Irish"? Seriously where do you get the right or even the gall to suggest such a disgusting and reductive thing.
VinLieger wrote: » The main crux of the argument that An Coileann and other irish language proponents seem to be missing here is the other side of the argument arent asking for it to be scraped banned or whatever just for the entire way of thinking and teaching it to be overhauled as the current system is simply not working no matter how you look at it economically or educationally. What i think needs to happen is the language to be removed as a compulsory language and like the foreign languages it should be sold on its merits instead of forced on people who see no reason to learn it.
Coles wrote: » Perhaps you could provide a link to where I said that.
Coles wrote: » Another interesting question. I have a very open definition, but it's based on the person making a conscious choice. If they have chosen to identify themselves as Irish then that's good enough for me. I suppose it also requires an allegiance to the land and a respect for the native tradition, heritage and culture. I find most people who lack this really don't want to be considered 'Irish' and usually choose another identity. Like you guys.
An Coilean wrote: » The other side want Irish to be made optional, regardless of the effect that will have on the language or the education system. It seems to me to be based on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system. They also want the Official languages act and language commissioner to be scrapped, suggesting that they want Irish speakers to be treated as second class citizens in this country. Personally I have criticized how Irish is taught for years and where possible have contributed my opinions on how to improve it, however there is no evidence that making it optional will do anything to improve it. Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.
Pilotdude5 wrote: » Irish sounds like a cat choking on a hairball. I will achieve my dream of "One species, one language" someday....
nesf wrote: » What agenda?
An Coilean wrote: » Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.
VinLieger wrote: » I think thats pretty plain
VinLieger wrote: » Well we have no evidence that the current system will improve the education system either in fact we have a few decades proving exactly the opposite. Maybe removing it from being compulsory wouldnt work but at this stage something needs to be done other than keeping our heads in the sand and sticking our fingers in our ears which yes you havent done but others like coles are actively participating in
An Coilean wrote: » You are right, the current system is not working, that is something that has long been accepted, if anything the only people with their heads in the sand are the Dept. of Education. There is supposed to be an in-depth review of the Irish curriculum at primary level ongoing that should address some concerns at that level, we will have to wait and see what changes will be implemented. Mainstream Irish Language Organisations have been arguing for change in how Irish is taught for years. Just because the only thing reported on is opposition to making Irish optional doesn't mean that there have been no constructive suggestions on reform of the curriculum from our side.
Teamshadowclan wrote: » Pushing Irish as a compulsory subject, insisting every document gets translated into Irish, insisting the Gardai should spend time and money learning Irish to please those awkward enough to insist on dealing with them through Irish, etc... Basically, refusing to let everyone make the decision themselves as to the importance of the language, and forcing it on everyone regardless of their desires, despite the resentment this causes on multiple levels.
Teamshadowclan wrote: » Could you provide a specific example of this happening please? Because I could easily also argue that those who wish to keep it compulsory are basing their argument "on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system."
Making languages optional was, O'Neill says, partly about improving access to education for the less able. Unfortunately, this was founded on "an illusion that a good education for children of fewer advantages is to introduce more choice
One of the many unintended results is that "the experience of other cultures is now confined to an elite
nesf wrote: » Gardaí are unfortunately required by law to be able to deal with the public in Irish in all situations. Now the native speakers I know outside when outside of a Gaeltacht would always speak in English to the Gardaí rather than put one in a very uncomfortable spot.
