Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

An Coilean

twinQuins wrote: »

Considering it's infeasible for them to field the personnel required to meet with every possible case of someone wanting to deal with them through Irish - you even admit so later in your post - I'd say the blame lies with speakers of Irish and their, frankly, unrealistic expectations.

Okay... so which is it? Either the Garda can't be expected to meet the need and so Irish speakers should be aware of this and accept the consequences of it or they should be able to and it's not a strawman at all.

If there's no expectation that every Garda will be able to speak Irish how can they possibly provide coverage for every eventuality? Surely you must accept that given that reality there'll be cases where if you want to deal with them in Irish you'll just have to wait until there's someone available.

And if you accept that then you must also accept that nothing wrong was done in this case. The guy in question didn't want to give his details in a manner that could be understood, the Gardaí have a reasonable right to detain people who are uncooperative.
And yes, uncooperative he was - all he had to do was give his details in English and save both their time.

But before we get back to the first point (as I'm sure will happen) I'll save you the bother - as we see, since it's impossible to provide coverage to all cases the guy in question could either speak in English and save his time or not and waste it. That's not denying him his rights, that's just having to square the expectations under law with the reality.

The strawman is suggesting that there is an expectation on the part of Irish speakers that every Garda be able to speak Irish, that is not the case.

You set out a false ditchonomy whereby either all Gardaí must speak Irish or no service in Irish can be expected. This is nonsense, police forces in other bilingual jurisdictions such as Canada and Wales are able to put procedures in place whereby members of the force not fluent in one of the official languages are able to accommodate speakers of that language.
It can be as simple as designating someone with competence in Irish in the station who can help the Garda at the scene over the phone. No massive cost, no huge waste of anyone's time, no need to arrest people for speaking Irish.

9959

9959 wrote: »

Armenian language enthusiasts don't have their very own forum on 'boards', you do, you lucky sod, please use and enjoy, by the way you'll have the place all to yourself, I just popped over for a quick visit, the number of current active users?, eh, none, not even one of those eager 1.7 million 'speakers', how ungrateful.

Rubeter wrote: »

Ouch that hurts. Is there a smiley around to show the cat clawing motion accompanied by a screechy cat noise for when someone says something for no reason other than being "catty"?
Is that really the best you can do regarding my point? By the way, thanks for actually helping me make that point by posting (against the rules I might add) something in a language other than the good ole queens English, without actually providing a translation for those who might not be able to stomach the sight of anything other than the sight of that (this) wonderful language.

It's interesting that some of the more vociferous anti-Irish posters here have mentioned they will not be told what language they must speak, surely then they must agree and empathise with the fella dealing with the Guards or does that sentiment only work one way?

I didn't pluck the 1.7 million figure out of thin air, one of your fellow enthusiasts did based on some census figures on the amount of people who can say "an bhfuil cead agam dul amach ....", there was even a zealot on 'Primetime' a couple of weeks back who couldn't keep a straight face when the figure of 1.7 million was mentioned.

By the way, it's not for the first time that I've posted in Armenian in response to someone posting 'as Gaelige' on these boards, it seems like the only safe and sane thing to do in the face of such wild, daring rebelliousness.
Perhaps the brave lad who refused to answer in the language of the oppressor will become the Rosa Parks of the Irish Language movement, then again perhaps not, hers was a very courageous act, whereas he was just acting the bollox, as is his 'constitutional right' to so do.
Meow!

Coles

So, any one got any comments to make about the fact that Gardaí are taught the Irish Language during their training?

twinQuins

Coles wrote: »

I regard everyone who wishes to be Irish as Irish! It's simply a matter of choice. I've been consistent in this.

Or if you can't be polite you could find yourself another thread? There's a good lad.

I'm simply responding in kind. You want to be a dick to people? Well, don't be surprised when it comes around to you in turn.

Now keep that in mind like a "good lad" yourself.

marienbad

time for the munster v connaught match on tg4 with optional radio commentary in english

Coles

twinQuins wrote: »

I'm simply responding in kind. You want to be a dick to people? Well, don't be surprised when it comes around to you in turn.

Now keep that in mind like a "good lad" yourself.

Listen son. It's not 'big' to insult people. Leave it out and let the discussion happen.

An Coilean

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The problem is that we have fourth-hand information and none of us know. You direced me to a Gaelport link which has absolutely no references to it!! How the hell am I supposed to check the other side of the story? There's not even a link to the report they quoted - and anything that quotes something wihtout a source makes me VERY skeptical. We don't even have any mentino of names, Gardai names or stations. There is NOTHING of substance in the link.

So no - I don't know why he was arrested. But then neither do you and neither does Gaelport. Nor the Commissioner, probably. None of us even know if he even was arrested!

An Coimisinéir carried out an official investigation with the cooperation of the Gardaí into the matter, so yeah he would have a fair idea of what happened.

The investigation is outlined in his Anual Report which can be found here:
http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/Tuarascail_Bhliantuil_2012.pdf

An investigation found that An Garda Síochána failed to comply with the
statutory duties in subsection 18(1) of the Official Languages Act with
regard to subsection 1.3 of the Garda Síochána language scheme when
the complainant in this case was arrested in Dundrum, Dublin on 11
February 2011 under section 107 of the Road Traffic Acts, 1961-2011. An
Garda Síochána, as an organisation, failed to grant him the right which its
language scheme confirms as the right of every citizen to conduct their
business through Irish, which led to his arrest at the roadside

That is the start of it, it goes into greater detail of the incident if you care to read it.

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

What was particularly embarrassing was when earlier in the thread a Swedish boardsie didn't receive a word of thanks or encouragement for making the effort to learn the language, but was instead attacked and sneered at.

Actually, I think you'll find he came in and asked what I considered culture to mean, I answered, he called me wrong and then disappeared without offering his definition of culture. You're right, he should be congraulated for learning a new language, but he was also telling me what my culture was, implying I was less Irish cause I didn't speak the language and didn't want to answer simple questions back....

Sickening stuff by this anti-Irish gang. But they're just a tiny minority. A bit like the BNP.

I do love how you want to portray us as "Anti-Irish" when all we've asked is the choice to not have it forced on us. But still, continue with the name calling. it's clear now it's about all you can offer to the "debate". At least An Coilean is actually trying to be civil and have a discussion, trying to back up her points with facts and quotes when she can. I disagree with her but can at least respect the angles she's trying to take...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

An Coimisinéir carried out an official investigation with the cooperation of the Gardaí into the matter, so yeah he would have a fair idea of what happened.

The investigation is outlined in his Anual Report which can be found here:
http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/Tuarascail_Bhliantuil_2012.pdf



That is the start of it, it goes into greater detail of the incident if you care to read it.

So my first post on this little side issue was right all along.

It says that the Gardai Siochana as an organisation have a reponsibility to make Irish langauge services available to it's clients. Therefore, there is NO onus to deal with incidents on the spot in Irish required, not even by the commissioner.

In other words, the arrested party had a choice: deal with it in English on the spot, or go back to the station and deal with it in Irish. He chose the later. He wasn't foreced to, he chose to.

As myself and at least two other posters said, the arresting and the handcuffs were completely over the top. But again - how do the Gardai know he's not covering something else up? If, as I said, he was aske to speak English he refused, he's refusing on order of the guards which is never a good idea and, 9 times out of 10, will get you arrested. I know this, you know this, the guy who got arrested knew this.

The rest is ambiguous. You could well be right, I could well be right. He was officially arrested under the Road Traffic Act (which, admittedly, may or may not be bull****) but without knowing what he did to attact Gardai attention in the first place, we'll never know.

twinQuins

An Coilean wrote: »

The strawman is suggesting that there is an expectation on the part of Irish speakers that every Garda be able to speak Irish, that is not the case.

You set out a false ditchonomy whereby either all Gardaí must speak Irish or no service in Irish can be expected.

I didn't say "no service" can be provided I said it can't meet the expectations of Irish speakers if it's that they should be able to deal with Gardaí in Irish whenever they want.

If you accept that there will be cases where no Garda capable of speaking Irish will be available then I'm afraid it's you who is making this strawman of my argument.

This is nonsense, police forces in other bilingual jurisdictions such as Canada and Wales are able to put procedures in place whereby members of the force not fluent in one of the official languages are able to accommodate speakers of that language.

As far as Canada and Wales are concerned I'm not familiar with their provisions. Certainly with Wales, at least, afaik there's more speakers of the language than here so it's not quite so unrealistic an expectation.

It can be as simple as designating someone with competence in Irish in the station who can help the Garda at the scene over the phone. No massive cost, no huge waste of anyone's time, no need to arrest people for speaking Irish.

He was arrested for speaking Irish? News to me! I thought he was arrested for failing to give his details. Which he was perfectly capable of doing but chose not to.
See? It was his choice to be uncooperative.

Gardaí can't be expected to let people commit an offence and then walk free just because they won't give their details in a manner that can be understood at the time.
So, the solution is to detain them until someone who is capable of understanding them is found. Or the person - who is fully capable of speaking English - can avoid that and just... give their details in English.

Coles wrote: »

Listen son. It's not 'big' to insult people. Leave it out and let the discussion happen.

Then can we count on you to do the same? Or will you be content to continue playing the hypocrite and sneer at everyone else while petulantly hurling insults?

Lelantos

marienbad wrote: »

time for the munster v connaught match on tg4 with optional radio commentary in english

I've had this discussion with people before, when tg4 had purchased the rights to the Rabo 12 there was a lot of resistance to it, but quite a few people have told me they persisted & are picking up quite a bit of the language. Mumhan abú!

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

So, any one got any comments to make about the fact that Gardaí are taught the Irish Language during their training?

Isn't it amazing that, much as in general, someone can receive 14+ years of Irish language classes and still not be able to hold even the most basic of conversations?

ZeitgeistGlee

Any key? wrote: »

And aren't we so lucky as a nation to be entitled to that superiority complex?

The backlash against our own national language is embarressing.

Why? Why is it fortunate that some sections of the population (certainly not "the nation") feel entitled to condescend, deride and outright insult other sections for wanting to challenge the position of a language they do not feel should hold primacy?

Frankly I find it embarrassing that people would support such an attitude.

Coles wrote: »

What was particularly embarrassing was when earlier in the thread a Swedish boardsie didn't receive a word of thanks or encouragement for making the effort to learn the language, but was instead attacked and sneered at.

I don't seem to recall anyone attacking or sneering at SWL, in fact many people expressed respect or admiration for his having learned Irish. What I, and others did do however is retort his assertions that our poor experiences with Irish proponents were less valid because of his own positive ones.

On the other hand SWL consistently refused to answer whether or not he would support the mandatory education and proliferation of languages like Finnish and Sami (to the point of bilingual status) among the Swedish population (along with the full financial costs associated), which to some Swedish people as much a part of their heritage and culture as Irish is some Irish people.

Coles wrote: »

Sickening stuff by this anti-Irish gang. But they're just a tiny minority. A bit like the BNP.

And here we go again. :rolleyes:

Coles

twinQuins wrote: »

...playing the hypocrite and sneer at everyone else while petulantly hurling insults?

Run along there.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

That is the start of it, it goes into greater detail of the incident if you care to read it.

Did you read it? It does not say that 'he was arrested for speaking Irish'.

It's ironic that you jump to the defense of Irish speaking law-breakers and remain stonily silent about the rights of innocent English-speaking children.

Coles

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Isn't it amazing that, much as in general, someone can receive 14+ years of Irish language classes and still not be able to hold even the most basic of conversations?

It certainly is. I find it very hard to believe. I know you guys have been blaming the victim of this case, but perhaps the Garda was being unreasonable?

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

It certainly is. I find it very hard to believe. I know you guys have been blaming the victim of this case, but perhaps the Garda was being unreasonable?

Do please explain that line of logic please
Or are we back to the "bad attitude" nonsense?

ZeitgeistGlee

Coles wrote: »

I regard everyone who wishes to be Irish as Irish! It's simply a matter of choice. I've been consistent in this.

Right, and how do you define someone "wishing to be Irish"?

Coles wrote: »

Or if you can't be polite you could find yourself another thread? There's a good lad.

Perhaps you might take your own advice. :rolleyes:

Coles wrote: »

Listen son. It's not 'big' to insult people. Leave it out and let the discussion happen.

Yep, going to book that doctors appointment now, pretty sure the irony has reached toxicity levels.

An Coilean

twinQuins wrote: »

He was arrested for speaking Irish?

That is the conclusion that the official investigation into the incident came to.

An Garda Síochána, as an organisation, failed to grant him the right which its language scheme confirms as the right of every citizen to conduct their business through Irish, which led to his arrest at the roadside

Coles

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

it's clear now it's about all you can offer to the "debate".

Ad hominem ad hominem...

I'll could remind you of some of my contributions to this debate if you like? How about establishing (wityhout challenge) that the State spends little more than €15 million per annum promoting the Irish Language? And not the €1.3 billion figure that can't be supported by fact?

Not much to be saved by banning the Irish language, is there? And imagine the cultural loss!

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

Not much to be saved by banning the Irish language, is there?

And who, prey tell, has advocated banning the language?

EDIT: An Coilean, what page is that discussed on in the link you provided? Please and thanks

Coles

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Yep, going to book that doctors appointment now, pretty sure the irony has reached toxicity levels.

Here's an idea. If you have a difficulty with any of my contributions then report them. I can't figure out why you guys keep attacking me in this manner when it's not necessary.

This thread is not about me.

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

And who, prey tell, has advocated banning the language?

EDIT: An Coilean, what page is that discussed on in the link you provided? Please and thanks

Pages 39 - 42

ZeitgeistGlee

Coles wrote: »

Ad hominem ad hominem...

Indeed, we endure so many from you.

Coles wrote: »

I'll could remind you of some of my contributions to this debate if you like? How about establishing (wityhout challenge) that the State spends little more than €15 million per annum promoting the Irish Language? And not the €1.3 billion figure that can't be supported by fact?

TG4 got over €32 million last year in public funding alone.

Coles wrote: »

Not much to be saved by banning the Irish language, is there? And imagine the cultural loss!

I imagine any hospital in Ireland would readily accept an addition €15 million.

ZeitgeistGlee

Coles wrote: »

Here's an idea. If you have a difficulty with any of my contributions then report them. I can't figure out why you guys keep attacking me in this manner when it's not necessary.

This thread is not about me.

I've repeated reported them, in fact I just reported your BNP comparison as abusive.

Coles

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Do please explain that line of logic please
Or are we back to the "bad attitude" nonsense?

Well, it appears to me that the Garda probably could speak the language. 14 years learning it in school? probably a qualifying language to enter the force? 3 years learning it in Templemore? And then he hand-cuffs a man and detains him because the man had the temerity to address him in Irish? Sounds like a bad attitude to me!

There's quite a lot of bad attitude towards the language here too.

Coles

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

TG4 got over €32 million last year in public funding alone.

And we have established that TG4 doesn't spend the money promoting the Irish language, just like RTE doesn't spend it's €300 million promoting the English language. They provide a television service.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

Well, it appears to me that the Garda probably could speak the language. 14 years learning it in school? probably a qualifying language to enter the force? 3 years learning it in Templemore? And then he hand-cuffs a man and detains him because the man had the temerity to address him in Irish? Sounds like a bad attitude to me!

There's quite a lot of bad attitude towards the language here too.

Again are you serious?

Where in the name of all that is holy, do you get the idea that someone who spent 14 years in the Irish education system would "probably speak the lanaguge"??

Coles

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

I've repeated reported them, in fact I just reported your BNP comparison as abusive.

Because I compared a vocal minority group who don't value diversity to the BNP? The comparison seems fair enough to me. But who exactly has been abused?

Lord TSC

So reading through the report, some things jump out...

For one, the Gardai say he was not arrested for speaking Irish but because....

It said that the complainant was arrested because of a road traffic offence. The following was said in relation to the case, from the time the complainant was brought to the Garda Station: “....a proficient Irish speaking Garda was notified to attend in order to converse with the complainant. The complainant was then informed through Irish of the reason for his arrest and this was explained in ordinary language to him. All subsequent dealings with the complainant were then conducted through the Irish language. This was achieved as soon as practicable.”

To be honest, this seems reasonable enough to me. Obviously it doesn't to you. So I wonder An Coilean, had you been in the Gardai's position and didn't know enough Irish to conduct the meeting with the guy who just broke the law, how would you have proceeded? Forget what they SHOULD be able to do. What would you have done?

As I see it, the situation is as follows. They pull over the man, who insists they speak Irish to him. They can't...what happens next in your head? They can't just let him go. They can't sit on the side of the road while they wait for an interpreter to be found and arrive on the scene. At this stage, it seems logical they take him to the station where he can be detained (though not arrested, imo) until they find someone who can help matters proceed. But do you see it differently?

I also found this interesting...

that, notwithstanding the language duty that was contained in their language scheme, the Garda Síochána authorities had not put in place any clear protocol to cater for a situation where a member of the public, who was stopped on the roadside but had not been arrested, sought to make the legitimate choice of conducting his business with An Garda Síochána in Irish

What I find interesting here is how this was, then, an unprecedented situation. In all the decades of the "rules" being in place, they had not encountered a situation which led to the Gardai deciding on a procedure to deal with such situations. You'd think it would have arose before if there were so many people desperate to conduct their businesses in Irish.