Grass Measuring

delaval

I've noticed since joining that there is a lot of posts re. grass growth/lack of. I also noticed that queit a few are interested in persuing it but either lack knowhow or confidence to do so.

I thought it would be a good idea to start this for any questions people may have, I am sure that the people who are measuring would be more than willing to help.

6480

delaval wrote: »

I've noticed since joining that there is a lot of posts re. grass growth/lack of. I also noticed that queit a few are interested in persuing it but either lack knowhow or confidence to do so.

I thought it would be a good idea to start this for any questions people may have, I am sure that the people who are measuring would be more than willing to help.

does it not have to grow first to talk about then

loveta

delaval wrote: »

I've noticed since joining that there is a lot of posts re. grass growth/lack of. I also noticed that queit a few are interested in persuing it but either lack knowhow or confidence to do so.

I thought it would be a good idea to start this for any questions people may have, I am sure that the people who are measuring would be more than willing to help.

Good idea Delaval.
One question i have is, what about eye balling your farm instead of the whole measuring process and let the cows decide "RE the milk tank and solid figures" if there getting enough because on this farm IMHO if you make them graze tight you murder the solids.

6480

in the last 2 years i quit wit the strip wire in the paddocks and just let the cows in freely as what was the way we done it years ago with paddocks , when they need cleaning off i bring the weanling or bulling heifers back in , or the topper , it was a route 2 thirds of our discussion groups took and solids have risen alot as cows are not under pressure on tight grazing

loveta

6480 wrote: »

in the last 2 years i quit wit the strip wire in the paddocks and just let the cows in freely as what was the way we done it years ago with paddocks , when they need cleaning off i bring the weanling or bulling heifers back in , or the topper , it was a route 2 thirds of our discussion groups took and solids have risen alot as cows are not under pressure on tight grazing

Agree totally my protein was always poor till i let the cows decide when they had enough now its quiet good but jasus they could eat the hand of a scabby child :eek:

hoseman

6480 wrote: »

in the last 2 years i quit wit the strip wire in the paddocks and just let the cows in freely as what was the way we done it years ago with paddocks , when they need cleaning off i bring the weanling or bulling heifers back in , or the topper , it was a route 2 thirds of our discussion groups took and solids have risen alot as cows are not under pressure on tight grazing

I gave up milking 15 yrs ago, see a neighbour doing something similiar,closes about one fifth of the paddock lets the cows in,for the last grazing gives them the whole paddock.I would cinsider him a top farmer seems to do the simple things right,might try the same with dry cattle this year.

kowtow

Went to walk paddocks this morning - and came to the conclusion that rather than cut quadrants and do that maths I might as well be done with it and cut and weigh the whole place.

Penalty of shutting up fields at Christmas.

delaval

loveta wrote: »

Good idea Delaval.
One question i have is, what about eye balling your farm instead of the whole measuring process and let the cows decide "RE the milk tank and solid figures" if there getting enough because on this farm IMHO if you make them graze tight you murder the solids.

Milk in the tank is historic......too late it is one chart you should not make decisions on

delaval

I repeat if anyone is interested?

We are using stripwire at the moment because what we have needs to last 'till 01/04 and cows are doing 23 litres fat 4.91 pro3.70 = 1.92 kgms/ cow.

I intended this for people who needed assistance or somewhere to discuss grass measuring

loveta

delaval wrote: »

Milk in the tank is historic......too late it is one chart you should not make decisions on

Maybe... but how do you know what solids are, or what your cows are averaging on a dad to day basis?? but i get what your saying re the grass measuring we are getting of your original post idea.......

awaywithyou

delaval wrote: »

I repeat if anyone is interested?

We are using stripwire at the moment because what we have needs to last 'till 01/04 and cows are doing 23 litres fat 4.91 pro3.70 = 1.92 kgms/ cow.

I intended this for people who needed assistance or somewhere to discuss grass measuring

what kind of covers are they going into....?

and are you supplementing with silage?

this is a good thread or has the potential to be.... but like was said above.. grass must grow first

6480

delaval wrote: »

I repeat if anyone is interested?

We are using stripwire at the moment because what we have needs to last 'till 01/04 and cows are doing 23 litres fat 4.91 pro3.70 = 1.92 kgms/ cow.

I intended this for people who needed assistance or somewhere to discuss grass measuring

so what about the weather at the min will the cows do 23litres with sleet and rain falling , i love to get the cows out but not in this weather

DoonallyNew

http://www.agresearch.teagasc.ie/moorepark/Publications/pdfs/Open%20Day%20Moorepark%202009%20Grazing%20Manual.pdf
Found this handy when I was starting up. Anyone using the Spring Rotation Planner?

delaval

awaywithyou wrote: »

what kind of covers are they going into....?

and are you supplementing with silage?

this is a good thread or has the potential to be.... but like was said above.. grass must grow first

Sorry didn't say cows on 4kg 12% nuts no silage
We will get out till Aoril 1st then we may have a problem

Going into 1200 and ranges down to 700 then a cliff to grazed paddocks averaging 300

Our AFC is 596
Growth rate 12 last week
2.1 lu/ha

I am not suggesting that this thread is any kind of a silver bullet. All that struck me was that there was a demand for info and there are people here with that knowledge.

Regardless of what cover you have today or how you managed in the past grazed grass is the key to profitability as it is still the cheapest feed at 5-7c/kg dm.

The question one must ask is how do some people have grass on their farms and some have none. Did you lock up early enough? do you calve too early? is there an issiue with your soil fertility? No matter what type of cow or land type these are pertinant questions.

The trick with grass is to utalise it to it's max regardless.

bob charles

6480 wrote: »

in the last 2 years i quit wit the strip wire in the paddocks and just let the cows in freely as what was the way we done it years ago with paddocks , when they need cleaning off i bring the weanling or bulling heifers back in , or the topper , it was a route 2 thirds of our discussion groups took and solids have risen alot as cows are not under pressure on tight grazing

Jasus lads take it easy, next thing you's will be advocating is set stocking:D
"delicated follower of fashion" was a hit in 1966:rolleyes:


Whoever is into measuring best of luck, anything that focuses guy' (and girls) to get as much quality energy from grass into animals is to be commended

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

Jasus lads take it easy, next thing you's will be advocating is set stocking:D
"delicated follower of fashion" was a hit in 1966:rolleyes:

Sounds like you got no treat last night:p:p:p:p

Timmaay

Good thread definitely, the biggest "roadblock" as such to people bothering is that they see the whole grass measuring as too much of a chore, 1st few time yes it will probably take time, and you wont be familiar with estimating the covers on the fields. I got my teagasc adviser to walk the farm with me once before, as I thought I was well out with some of the estimates, I actually wasn't too far off the mark, but was great to have that 2nd opinion, and I've more confidence in the whole thing now!

But anyways, now estimating grass covers has become 2nd nature, instead of just looking at a field, and thinking "good crop coming on that", I'm putting figures on it all the time. I probably should be more punctual with my grass walks (ie every mon afternoon etc), but I'm out in the paddocks often enough now between fencing etc and usually get in a few fields at a time. During the main grass wedge, I plan on walking the farm every week without fail though.

We've all had the debates on crossbreed v HO, and precision chopped silage v wagon, but as far as I can see there is no two ways about grass utilization, the better it is the more profit it will make me, so no excuse not to spend the few minutes every week putting the figures to it!

awaywithyou

delaval wrote: »

Sorry didn't say cows on 4kg 12% nuts no silage
We will get out till Aoril 1st then we may have a problem

Going into 1200 and ranges down to 700 then a cliff to grazed paddocks averaging 300

Our AFC is 596
Growth rate 12 last week
2.1 lu/ha

I am not suggesting that this thread is any kind of a silver bullet. All that struck me was that there was a demand for info and there are people here with that knowledge.

Regardless of what cover you have today or how you managed in the past grazed grass is the key to profitability as it is still the cheapest feed at 5-7c/kg dm.

The question one must ask is how do some people have grass on their farms and some have none. Did you lock up early enough? do you calve too early? is there an issiue with your soil fertility? No matter what type of cow or land type these are pertinant questions.

The trick with grass is to utalise it to it's max regardless.

feeding a 12% nut... that not a bit low in protein this early in the cows lactation....

TEAT SQUEEZER

grass is 20-24% cp at the moment so with no silage in the diet the 12% is fine (overall diet above the optimum 16% i`d suggest)

this thread has good potential no doubt but lets park all nit picking about the grass measuring concept and see what comes about...

teagasc have a sheet available to help eyeballing which is divided into 250 kg sections and a loose description beside it... eg 1000 kg = lightgrazing, 2500 k g = strong grass etc and its dead handy to put a figure on what ure looking at. its a good starting point....

when your putting a figure on something its much easier see a surplus or deficit and grass measuring takes the guess work out of grass management.. you simply will never run out of grass cos u see a slack time coming and likewise you`ll never let the farm run away from u either... so imo its a worthwhile exercise

delaval

A tip for the inexperianced
Grade your paddocks as follows
150-300.............200
3-600.............400
6-900.............700
900+.............1000

If you use this at the beginning you won't more than 100 out and won't be long getting the hang of it. It doesn't matter if you are not 100% as long as you do weekly and in heavy growth three times a fortnight.

The most important thing is to establish how much grass you have on farm now and use as much as you can for as long as you can....divide your area by however many days till you usually have enough grass. I would suggest in free draining soils 01/04 and all others 12/04

bob charles

TEAT SQUEEZER wrote: »

grass is 20-24% cp at the moment so with no silage in the diet the 12% is fine (overall diet above the optimum 16% i`d suggest)

careful as I very much doubt that your grass CP is between posted values. if you were on your second rotation maybe but not for first grazing on overwintered grass.

Grass measuring I presume is of a much more benefit if your understocked as its a more difficult job to keep grass quality right when this is the case. To us guys that are always overstocked, grass quality nor utilization is never an issue, we just dont have enough of it

This easy for you Delav to have cheap grass when you have ground for nothing

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

careful as I very much doubt that your grass CP is between posted values. if you were on your second rotation maybe but not for first grazing on overwintered grass.

Grass measuring I presume is of a much more benefit if your understocked as its a more difficult job to keep grass quality right when this is the case. To us guys that are always overstocked, grass quality nor utilization is never an issue, we just dont have enough of it

This easy for you Delav to have cheap grass when you have ground for nothing

Don't have land for nothing very expensive 'round this area, what I do have is a good relationship with my landlords, long leases and of course a sunny disposition they love me:cool::cool::cool:

TEAT SQUEEZER

bob charles wrote: »

careful as I very much doubt that your grass CP is between posted values. if you were on your second rotation maybe but not for first grazing on overwintered grass.

Grass measuring I presume is of a much more benefit if your understocked as its a more difficult job to keep grass quality right when this is the case. To us guys that are always overstocked, grass quality nor utilization is never an issue, we just dont have enough of it

This easy for you Delav to have cheap grass when you have ground for nothing

those cp figures were 2 i heard from spring 2013 samples...
fair point about the highly stocked operator ... do you supplement much when at grass bob?

bob charles

TEAT SQUEEZER wrote: »

those cp figures were 2 i heard from spring 2013 samples...
fair point about the highly stocked operator ... do you supplement much when at grass bob?

supplement all forward animals on grass with tmr, stores would be grass alone. last time I had a surplus paddock for silage was about 8 yrs ago. Even during full grass growth I would just about be meeting total demand. for this reason you will probably understand my lack of interest

One serious deficit of the system is it fails to calculate and put a value on the quality of the grass. It would the same as just valuing concentrates/other feeds by just using DM and taking no account of energy values etc

TEAT SQUEEZER

bob charles wrote: »

supplement all forward animals on grass with tmr, stores would be grass alone. last time I had a surplus paddock for silage was about 8 yrs ago. Even during full grass growth I would just about be meeting total demand. for this reason you will probably understand my lack of interest

One serious deficit of the system is it fails to calculate and put a value on the quality of the grass. It would the same as just valuing concentrates/other feeds by just using DM and taking no account of energy values etc

granted.. its near impossible to do that to a fine degree considering age of pasture, wet v dry ground etc but if u manage to keep what ure offering ure animals between 1200 - 1600 kgs/ha for the main grazing season and get them to eat down as near to 100 as poss then your offering them the best stuff that pasture is capable of producing..

just do it

Coming from a suckler farm perspective most of us are miles behind. For example under the Beef Discussion Group programme having at least 6 paddocks is one of the options.

Like Bob I've wet land but unlike Bob I'm still under stocked. However 2 years will see that change as I've home bred heifers coming through. Grass utilisation I see as the biggest issue. I started by putting a roadway through the place last year but couldn't get it finished due to the place being too wet. Drainage is also needed and is being done but all this costs money. Then comes improving grass growth and quality. That starts with soil fertility. So what I'm getting at here is for a lot of beef farmers there is a lot to be done before you start getting into grass measurement. Don't get me wrong, it's where I want to get to, but there are a few stepping stones before I get there. I wouldn't say there are many suckler farmers around me much better positioned to get into it.

F.D

delaval, only doing drystock but interested in grass measuring to prove which fields are growing the least and need reseeding but it would be usefull to see what grass we have ahead at all times

1) as a part time farmer a platemeter would probably be the quickest option for us, if i cant do it maybe my wife could do it and there would be no variation, i'm not a member of any group so where in ireland can you get them at reasonable money?

2) as well as grass growth maybe you could throw up some figures of demand per animal, its all well and good saying you have x cover without knowing what amount the weanlings/stores/ cows require per day

ellewood

F.D wrote: »

delaval, only doing drystock but interested in grass measuring to prove which fields are growing the least and need reseeding but it would be usefull to see what grass we have ahead at all times

1) as a part time farmer a platemeter would probably be the quickest option for us, if i cant do it maybe my wife could do it and there would be no variation, i'm not a member of any group so where in ireland can you get them at reasonable money?

2) as well as grass growth maybe you could throw up some figures of demand per animal, its all well and good saying you have x cover without knowing what amount the weanlings/stores/ cows require per day

I use 2% body weight as demand ie 600kg cow 12kgs dm day 400kg weanling 8kg/dm/day but if sucklers/drystock make sure liveweight figures increase as weight increases as summer goes on as demand will increase with it.

Tipp Man

Paddocks are the greatest curse god ever created for cattle

I would strongly advise people to think twice or three times before putting them in

charityboy

Tipp Man wrote: »

Paddocks are the greatest curse god ever created for cattle

I would strongly advise people to think twice or three times before putting them in

I have both paddocks and open fields for dry stock and I am going to paddock the whole farm find it easier to manage grass as I'm tightly stocked

keep going

maybe the thought of calculaters and biros scares people but there are lots of ways of keeping an eye on things.personally i use a rotation planner spring and autumn and rotation lenght/days to graze a paddock for the main season.two things are most important 1 that you watch it regularly 2that animals give no more than 2 to 3 days in a block.the amount of potential thats lost by spending too long grazing is frightening

Tipp Man

charityboy wrote: »

I have both paddocks and open fields for dry stock and I am going to paddock the whole farm find it easier to manage grass as I'm tightly stocked

And we are going to rip up the newly made paddock on a bit of our cattle ground

Funny old world

td5man

Measuring Equipment;
what do you use?
Where can you buy it?

whelan1

td5man wrote: »

Measuring Equipment;
what do you use?
Where can you buy it?

mmm your eyes... you can use a quadrant and weigh it or just use your cop on, whichever comes easier:D

bob charles

I think the advisory are trying to shoehorn all cattle farms into a dairy type paddock system, when these are two very different systems. Not a fan of paddocks myself. The highest yield of protein and energy will be gotten per ac using tight grazing techniques but then this wont deliver the highest DM yield per acre. So what do you want, two much bad stuff or half enough good stuff. During the height of growth I would be of the opinion for cattle farms for a rotation of only 2ish weeks. What are dairy boys still be told rotation should be? still 21days?

I have heard people advocating making good to average silage instead of excellent silage. If you have excellent silage you have to dilute it down using straw which has no feed value and costs good money, if you have average silage you need no straw and you will probably get to the same point for the same price. Im of the belief of making as good a forage as possible

charityboy

Tipp Man wrote: »

And we are going to rip up the newly made paddock on a bit of our cattle ground

Funny old world

We could be doing the opposite of each other again in a couple of years One thing I have learned is opinions and methods differ on most farms each to their own I suppose

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

I think the advisory are trying to shoehorn all cattle farms into a dairy type paddock system, when these are two very different systems. Not a fan of paddocks myself. The highest yield of protein and energy will be gotten per ac using tight grazing techniques but then this wont deliver the highest DM yield per acre. So what do you want, two much bad stuff or half enough good stuff. During the height of growth I would be of the opinion for cattle farms for a rotation of only 2ish weeks. What are dairy boys still be told rotation should be? still 21days?

I have heard people advocating making good to average silage instead of excellent silage. If you have excellent silage you have to dilute it down using straw which has no feed value and costs good money, if you have average silage you need no straw and you will probably get to the same point for the same price. Im of the belief of making as good a forage as possible

Agree and disagree--We are big fans of paddock systems but not all ours are of uniform sizes. No herd of cows should spend more than 3 milkings on any one grazing area as it delay regrowth. Grazing pressure ie. high SR, unlike what you say is one sure way to increase your tonnes of dm.

I know of no serious grass manager who would recommend a 21 day rotation. In early spring for instance it could be 58-65+ days, at peak growth as short as 14 days and backend up to 90 days.

On the silage issiue I agree

delaval

By the way what do you consider highly stocked?
Our dairy block would average 3.2 rising to 5 at silage time total farm including heifer area 2.8 and no forage bought in.

delaval

F.D wrote: »

delaval, only doing drystock but interested in grass measuring to prove which fields are growing the least and need reseeding but it would be usefull to see what grass we have ahead at all times

1) as a part time farmer a platemeter would probably be the quickest option for us, if i cant do it maybe my wife could do it and there would be no variation, i'm not a member of any group so where in ireland can you get them at reasonable money?

2) as well as grass growth maybe you could throw up some figures of demand per animal, its all well and good saying you have x cover without knowing what amount the weanlings/stores/ cows require per day

1) Platemeter good start expensive though you would probably get on from Grasstech Bertie Troy, I will pm his number. If you could borrow one you would not be long training your eye. I would suggest you and your wife incorporate the measuring into a weekly walk and in no time you both will be on the same page.

2) Demand figures are simply calculated and another poster has outlined some examples.
The following is how I calculate
Cow requires 17kg's/day
S rate is 4/ha so 4x17 =68kg's dm is demand (it will be different for bigger cows) mine herd is 60% x-bred
If my growth is more than 68 kg's/day I am in surplus
If under we are in deficit and based on overall covers/cow may need supplemenation

ellewood

delaval wrote: »

By the way what do you consider highly stocked?
Our dairy block would average 3.2 rising to 5 at silage time total farm including heifer area 2.8 and no forage bought in.

can i ask whats youre sr is on the grazing platform only (not including silage ground) for the main 6 months grazing period apr - sept or maybe yoou just cut for bales as paddocks gets too strong to graze?

delaval

ellewood wrote: »

can i ask whats youre sr is on the grazing platform only (not including silage ground) for the main 6 months grazing period apr - sept or maybe yoou just cut for bales as paddocks gets too strong to graze?

I have no dedicated silage area take surplus as they appear. I would be comfortable at 4.5 average for the months you mention.
We take as few bales as possible use a wagon but thatis an aside. We have only topped 2-3 paddocks per year in any of the last 6 years and in fact none last year

ellewood

delaval wrote: »

I have no dedicated silage area take surplus as they appear. I would be comfortable at 4.5 average for the months you mention.
We take as few bales as possible use a wagon but thatis an aside. We have only topped 2-3 paddocks per year in any of the last 6 years and in fact none last year

so a growth rate of around 60-70 ?
can i ask roughly what N spreading plans are for those months as well?
do you spread afer each grazing, once a week blanket spread ect?
i know with youre cows probably not, but any meal fed once growth can meet demand?

sorry just re read youre previous post and you answered some of that already

delaval

ellewood wrote: »

so a growth rate of around 60-70 ?
can i ask roughly what N spreading plans are for those months as well?
do you spread afer each grazing, once a week blanket spread ect?
i know with youre cows probably not, but any meal fed once growth can meet demand?

Growth rate hard to answer but in that area
30 units N / acre
Blanket spread every 3 weeks
If growth meets demand no meal, we dust cal-mag to cover teatney

TEAT SQUEEZER

F.D wrote: »

delaval, only doing drystock but interested in grass measuring to prove which fields are growing the least and need reseeding but it would be usefull to see what grass we have ahead at all times

1) as a part time farmer a platemeter would probably be the quickest option for us, if i cant do it maybe my wife could do it and there would be no variation, i'm not a member of any group so where in ireland can you get them at reasonable money?

2) as well as grass growth maybe you could throw up some figures of demand per animal, its all well and good saying you have x cover without knowing what amount the weanlings/stores/ cows require per day

FD dont bother with a platemeter they are inacurate over 1200 kg covers.. i found various formulas needed at diff times of the year tedious also ... got a loan of one and was glad to give it back.. i clip and weigh if i want accuracy or eyeball if in a rush .. thats my opinion for what its worth

ellewood

delaval wrote: »

Growth rate hard to answer but in that area
30 units N / acre
Blanket spread every 3 weeks
If growth meets demand no meal, we dust cal-mag to cover teatney

Thanks for that

Sorry have one more question when you blanket spread, how many days worth of grass in front of cows do you not spread N on, ie if you have some strong covers for grazing just ahead of cows do you spread on that or do you wait till its grazed

And one last one, if a paddock gets too strong do you cut it near when it should have been grazed or do you let it bulk up before cutting

Thanks

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

Agree and disagree--We are big fans of paddock systems but not all ours are of uniform sizes. No herd of cows should spend more than 3 milkings on any one grazing area as it delay regrowth. Grazing pressure ie. high SR, unlike what you say is one sure way to increase your tonnes of dm.

I know of no serious grass manager who would recommend a 21 day rotation. In early spring for instance it could be 58-65+ days, at peak growth as short as 14 days and backend up to 90 days.

On the silage issiue I agree

I was talking at peak re the 21 days, whats being recommended by those who should know best nowadays at peak growth for rotation length. AS I said around 14 days to keep quality up.

Re the DM yield - the harder you graze or are overstocked you will not hit the max DM yield/ac. What you will hit is max energy and protein yield which are much more important and of a much higher value to the grazing animal

Presume with uniform paddock sizes it can make things more tricky for putting down on paper regarding you saying that your getting 3 milkings from your paddocks presume this means that cows can be short for milking 3 as they graze out, or have you followers? I would have taught short one in 4 or 5 would leave more bainne in the tank

dar31

from discussion group meeting to day, done a bit on grass utilization,
got our figures done a while ago.
10.8t/dm/ha consumed, how dose this fair
didnt get much time to discuss figures, so just curious

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

Re the DM yield - the harder you graze or are overstocked you will not hit the max DM yield/ac. What you will hit is max energy and protein yield which are much more important and of a much higher value to the grazing animal

At peak then how long are you leaving stock in a field/ paddock and what rest period? One of the main reasons you're not hitting the max DM yield/ac is surely because of outwintering? Interesting your point of max DM yield vs energy and protein yield. Sounds like there is a balance there to be struck.

delaval

dar31 wrote: »

from discussion group meeting to day, done a bit on grass utilization,
got our figures done a while ago.
10.8t/dm/ha consumed, how dose this fair
didnt get much time to discuss figures, so just curious

11t/ha would be a good utalised figure

Now your next step is to identify the paddocks growing less than 8 tonne. At that figure you have paddocks doing 15t and some doing half that, like us all:mad::mad::mad:

bob charles

just do it wrote: »

At peak then how long are you leaving stock in a field/ paddock and what rest period? One of the main reasons you're not hitting the max DM yield/ac is surely because of outwintering? Interesting your point of max DM yield vs energy and protein yield. Sounds like there is a balance there to be struck.

not outwintering on our grazing fields. we do clean fields off as tight as possible before xmas. Max energy and protein are at the tip of the grass. old saying was the best grass grew over night which I agree with.

Your into guess work area now but what are you taking as a utilization figure 75%? this used to be the figure used

If we take your figure of say 11t/ha of utilized grass, bloody stuff is getting expensive. my grass is costing around 90 a ton to grow so @75% its €120 a per utilised ton:eek:

TEAT SQUEEZER

a couple of references to 14 day rotations ... the majority of the paddocks growthh comes in the final week as the plant pushes out its 3rd leaf... so i wonder is there alot of quality grass left un grown and hence un used ... delaval a demand of 68 x 14 only gives u a pre grazing yield of 1050 incl, 100 residual , to me thats sailing close to the wind...are your cows burning up loads of energy just to fill themselves.. have seen a scenario where this happened ..