The Dalkey House of Horrors

political analyst

political analyst wrote: »

Do you mean that some men, because they couldn't get women to have sex with them, targeted children in order to release sexual tension? Was it a form of situational sexuality, like when some heterosexual men in prison have sex with other male prisoners who are submissive and are thus substitutes for women?

No that's a complete and utter cop-out and nonsense. Ironically people from all kinds of sides bring it up for different reasons but it's rubbish at the end of the day. Scumbags who had a bit of power used it and plenty of them entered the priesthood in the first place for having, shall we say, not completely normal sexual interests/preferences.

political analyst

Deleted User wrote: »

No that's a complete and utter cop-out and nonsense. Ironically people from all kinds of sides bring it up for different reasons but it's rubbish at the end of the day. Scumbags who had a bit of power used it and plenty of them entered the priesthood in the first place for having, shall we say, not completely normal sexual interests/preferences.

Was sexual abuse of children in this country much more common than in other western European countries?

political analyst

This article was published in 2017.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/arid-20455921.html

up for anything

Edgware wrote: »

Certainly and a baby was murdered. The weapon used was a knitting needle which was a regular item used to procure abortions. Cynthia who suffers from a mental disorder and comes from a clearly dysfuntional family has made allegations against her father, brothers, and several men who were living in Dalkey at that time. No proof whatsoever apart from what she says is forthcoming. She clearly has had a terrible life and shows up the complete lack of any social services looking at the family. But her allegations are just that allegations and could not be used as grounds for arrest never mind a trial.

What about the 37 page suicide note her sister/niece, Theresa Murphy, wrote before she killed herself in 2005? This apparently corroborated Cynthia's story and detailed the abuse which she herself and the other children of the family suffered. She wrote that the baby was stabbed in front of her.

ETA: Three of their sisters also made statements to gardaí confirming the abuse although they now deny it. Odd that.

Edgware

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats a disgusting post to be honest.

Basically you accept that she was raped as an 11 year old child,she became pregnant from the rape and her baby was murdered with knitting needles in an alleyway in Dun Laoighire. You accept all of that.

But then you go on to say with no proof whatsoever that she has a mental disorder and therefore cannot be trusted to tell the truth. By your logic any victim of rape and infanticide who later develops a mental disorder arising from same cannot be trusted because as you say about Cynthia she is "a damaged woman" and ask "would a jury believe her".

The only thing damaged here is your disgusting thought process that led you to type that load of bile in the first place. Its victim blaming at its very best, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Cynthias medical history is on public record. It's allright for you living in a never never land but in the real world of the Four Courts there simply is not enough evidence to convict anyone.
No smoke without fire bull**** is not evidence.

Would you accept being arrested, charged and tried on that type of 'evidence"?

Edgware

up for anything wrote: »

What about the 37 page suicide note her sister/niece, Theresa Murphy, wrote before she killed herself in 2005? This apparently corroborated Cynthia's story and detailed the abuse which she herself and the other children of the family suffered. She wrote that the baby was stabbed in front of her.

ETA: Three of their sisters also made statements to gardaí confirming the abuse although they now deny it. Odd that.

No one doubts that she was raped but statements of dead people aren't any use. Neither is statements that are later retracted by three Sisters.
Emotion isn't evidence

monkeybutter

Edgware wrote: »

No one doubts that she was raped but statements of dead people aren't any use. Neither is statements that are later retracted by three Sisters.
Emotion isn't evidence

That's the whole point of the cover up

Well done

steddyeddy

political analyst wrote: »

Was sexual abuse of children in this country much more common than in other western European countries?

All abuse was more common I'd say. There's not many countries that had mass graves for hundreds of babies.

Fritzbox

steddyeddy wrote: »

All abuse was more common I'd say. There's not many countries that had mass graves for hundreds of babies.

What mass graves for hundreds of babies?

Mrsmum

I hope something comes from this appeal for information. Such a dreadful story and there must be people who know stuff and hopefully they might speak now when they couldn't or wouldn't before. They might now because these are very different times where there is common acceptance of people telling their story, the good, the bad and the ugly of it. People were much more private and isolated to their own community back in the days of whispers and winks and it wasn' t like you could have a social media support forum. A older woman told me that when she was a child "minding the house ", a local man, on his way home from the pub, called to her house one day and seriously "molested" her. Long story short her parents let it go because they genuinely knew it would be her reputation that would be in tatters if word got out. The man was already considered somewhat of a rake and given a free pass but she would forever be known as kind of damaged goods. The woman was grateful to her parents for not shaming her. Sad world where the victims carried the shame.

Edgware

Edgware wrote: »

Hard to believe that it was only the early 70s but a 12 year old has a baby and Garda, social services if such a thing, medical staff seem to have done nothing.

Nobody knew who the mother of the baby was. The baby was never identified.
I think it was the coroner in the past few years that accepted Cynthia Owens claims that she was the mother.

eviltwin

Fritzbox wrote: »

What mass graves for hundreds of babies?

Ah here just google it. You’ll have hours of reading if it’s addressed here.

eviltwin

It was a different world back then. No internet, no places to go for help or support. If you were victim of something like this you were on your own. I was abused as a child in the mid 80’s - how did you talk about that in a family where an ad for bras or tampax was considered disgusting? How did you begin to use sexual language in such a repressed environment especially when the person doing the abuse was someone respected and deferred to in the community?

I hope the truth comes out and those responsible are named and those that protected them are held accountable.

Edgware

monkeybutter wrote: »

That's the whole point of the cover up

Well done

The only indication of a cover up is of one that emanated in the family. When you have worthwhile proof get back to us

Ten of Swords

This thread is no longer a suitable fit for After Hours

Since it is back in the news with the recent Garda appeal for information it belongs in CA/IMHO I think

political analyst

Mrsmum wrote: »

I hope something comes from this appeal for information. Such a dreadful story and there must be people who know stuff and hopefully they might speak now when they couldn't or wouldn't before. They might now because these are very different times where there is common acceptance of people telling their story, the good, the bad and the ugly of it. People were much more private and isolated to their own community back in the days of whispers and winks and it wasn' t like you could have a social media support forum. A older woman told me that when she was a child "minding the house ", a local man, on his way home from the pub, called to her house one day and seriously "molested" her. Long story short her parents let it go because they genuinely knew it would be her reputation that would be in tatters if word got out. The man was already considered somewhat of a rake and given a free pass but she would forever be known as kind of damaged goods. The woman was grateful to her parents for not shaming her. Sad world where the victims carried the shame.

Why would people in this country - even back in the bad old days - accuse a little girl of "leading-on" a man who sexually abused her?

political analyst

monkeybutter wrote: »

That's the whole point of the cover up

Well done

Obviously, such trauma might confuse a victim's memory.

A public denial by a well-known man of such allegations is, in itself, indicative of innocence, e.g. Harvey Proctor.

The man who was accused by Cynthia disproved some of the allegations. This article is from 2017 - published shortly after his death.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/arid-20455921.html

Mrsmum

political analyst wrote: »

Why would people in this country - even back in the bad old days - accuse a little girl of "leading-on" a man who sexually abused her?

No it's not that they would blame her at all, a young child in her own home but they would see her as a pity forever more and being an object of pity is a burden in itself. You are then, albeit through no fault of your own but still regardless, a poorer and weaker version of yourself in the eyes of your community - damaged. Poor Mary always and forever. Even today when telling your truth is regarded as empowering, a lot of people can't bear other people knowing their trauma, that's the secrecy that domestic and other abuses thrives in for instance. So it wasn't being blamed she feared , it was that that day would describe her forever more and while she personally would have to deal with it, she did not want to carry other people's restrictive sadness for her too. Freedom for her was in their not knowing.

Mules

Mrsmum wrote: »

No it's not that they would blame her at all, a young child in her own home but they would see her as a pity forever more and being an object of pity is a burden in itself. You are then, albeit through no fault of your own but still regardless, a poorer and weaker version of yourself in the eyes of your community - damaged. Poor Mary always and forever. Even today when telling your truth is regarded as empowering, a lot of people can't bear other people knowing their trauma, that's the secrecy that domestic and other abuses thrives in for instance. So it wasn't being blamed she feared , it was that that day would describe her forever more and while she personally would have to deal with it, she did not want to carry other people's restrictive sadness for her too. Freedom for her was in their not knowing.

That's interesting. I never realised that. Fortunately I've never experienced abuse, and I think those of us who haven't don't realise things like what you said.

eviltwin

political analyst wrote: »

Why would people in this country - even back in the bad old days - accuse a little girl of "leading-on" a man who sexually abused her?

It did happen and still does to some extent. When you see underage girls hooking up with older men in adult settings it’s not uncommon for some people to think she entrapped him or something. People don’t consider what that girl has experienced to make her think being hyper sexual in an adult space is an appropriate behaviour. It’s a sign of trauma in itself.

Mrsmum

Mules wrote: »

That's interesting. I never realised that. Fortunately I've never experienced abuse, and I think those of us who haven't don't realise things like what you said.

Yeah, I'm not sure I even captured her whole feeling around it but maybe it's like if say a father was accused of a really ugly crime, unfortunately his family who were completely innocent, perhaps young children at the time are often tainted by it too. People shun them or are embarrassed around them or don't want to be associated with them at all. So during their lives they only tell those they must, not everyone, because it somehow colours people's vision of them unfairly or just being the subject of gossip always would be a pain in itself.

Katgurl

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats a disgusting post to be honest.

Basically you accept that she was raped as an 11 year old child,she became pregnant from the rape and her baby was murdered with knitting needles in an alleyway in Dun Laoighire. You accept all of that.

But then you go on to say with no proof whatsoever that she has a mental disorder and therefore cannot be trusted to tell the truth. By your logic any victim of rape and infanticide who later develops a mental disorder arising from same cannot be trusted because as you say about Cynthia she is "a damaged woman" and ask "would a jury believe her".

The only thing damaged here is your disgusting thought process that led you to type that load of bile in the first place. Its victim blaming at its very best, you should be ashamed of yourself.

.


If I could thank this 100 times I would. You've managed to articulate what my rage addled brain couldn't. I was so mad reading his (her?) posts the only reply I could muster up was £*** you.

Katgurl

eviltwin wrote: »

It was a different world back then. No internet, no places to go for help or support. If you were victim of something like this you were on your own. I was abused as a child in the mid 80’s - how did you talk about that in a family where an ad for bras or tampax was considered disgusting? How did you begin to use sexual language in such a repressed environment especially when the person doing the abuse was someone respected and deferred to in the community?

I hope the truth comes out and those responsible are named and those that protected them are held accountable.

I'm so sorry to read this. Thanks for sharing.

steddyeddy

political analyst wrote: »

Obviously, such trauma might confuse a victim's memory.

A public denial by a well-known man of such allegations is, in itself, indicative of innocence, e.g. Harvey Proctor.

The man who was accused by Cynthia disproved some of the allegations. This article is from 2017 - published shortly after his death.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/arid-20455921.html

Mr Mullen worked at the Dun Laoghaire garda station. At that very station evidence was "mislaid" and a forged note from a superintendent was placed in the evidence room. I have every sympathy for Mr Mullen and he is innocent until proven guilty, however, the garda in Dun Laoghaire have tampered with evidence in this case. So the Garda are definitely trying to cover something up.

Inspector Dhar

Some years ago, Cynthia applied to the Minister for Justice for an exhumation of the baby. The child had been buried in the Holy Angels plot in Glasnevin. Her request was denied. The reason given was that such babies were buried in cardboard boxes, and over time, these Boxes would have disintegrated & the remains of all the babies would have become intermingled.

steddyeddy

Mrsmum wrote: »

No it's not that they would blame her at all, a young child in her own home but they would see her as a pity forever more and being an object of pity is a burden in itself. You are then, albeit through no fault of your own but still regardless, a poorer and weaker version of yourself in the eyes of your community - damaged. Poor Mary always and forever. Even today when telling your truth is regarded as empowering, a lot of people can't bear other people knowing their trauma, that's the secrecy that domestic and other abuses thrives in for instance. So it wasn't being blamed she feared , it was that that day would describe her forever more and while she personally would have to deal with it, she did not want to carry other people's restrictive sadness for her too. Freedom for her was in their not knowing.

A particularly disturbing tactic of abusers is to spread the idea that the victim is a liar. So now in the eyes of other adults the victim is young and a liar and has no chance of rescue or being believed.

Mrsmum

steddyeddy wrote: »

A particularly disturbing tactic of abusers is to spread the idea that the victim is a liar. So now in the eyes of other adults the victim is young and a liar and has no chance of rescue or being believed.

Absolutely that happens too and this leaves the victim wide open to abuse from other people who can say don't mind your one, shure she/he accuses all and sundry.

steddyeddy

Mrsmum wrote: »

Absolutely that happens too and this leaves the victim wide open to abuse from other people who can say don't mind your one, shure she/he accuses all and sundry.

Nasty isn't it. You don't even have to look further than this thread either. A rape victim has been called delusional and her views dismissed as mental illness.

Happy4all

I presume the piece in today's Sindo adds nothing new?

political analyst

Mrsmum wrote: »

No it's not that they would blame her at all, a young child in her own home but they would see her as a pity forever more and being an object of pity is a burden in itself. You are then, albeit through no fault of your own but still regardless, a poorer and weaker version of yourself in the eyes of your community - damaged. Poor Mary always and forever. Even today when telling your truth is regarded as empowering, a lot of people can't bear other people knowing their trauma, that's the secrecy that domestic and other abuses thrives in for instance. So it wasn't being blamed she feared , it was that that day would describe her forever more and while she personally would have to deal with it, she did not want to carry other people's restrictive sadness for her too. Freedom for her was in their not knowing.

Indeed. I think that women who have had miscarriages have similar feelings - they don't like being viewed as if they're incapacitated.