Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

CatFromHue

For Ireland's 2009 6N the following lined out against

England: Armitage at 15, Tindall at 13, Flutey at 12
Wales: Byrne at 15, Shanklin at 13
Scotland: Paterson at 15, Max Evans at 13.

Flutey, Byrne, and Shanklin were all selected to go on tour and I'd rate Earls as being better than the other guys from the home nations in his positions.

It isn't that mad that Earls was picked at all, especially when you factor in his club form.

Fishooks13

McFadden can't be considered at 12 for Ireland until he's picked there over a fit Gordan Darcy in a big game for Leinster.

Darcy's actually playing pretty well this season anyway so I'm not so sure our need for change is that urgent yet. Plenty of time to blood Marshall and McSharry in the summer

thomond2006

I think it would be good to blood either McSharry or Marshall playing alongside Sexton and BOD, in the summer that can't happen because they'll be on the Lions Tour. If BOD doesn't make the tour I'd say he'll be rested a la Horan and Hayes in 2009.

Higher

thomond2006 wrote: »

I think it would be good to blood either McSharry or Marshall playing alongside Sexton and BOD, in the summer that can't happen because they'll be on the Lions Tour. If BOD doesn't make the tour I'd say he'll be rested a la Horan and Hayes in 2009.

Not forgetting McFadden. Hes only 26. Still has another 7 years in him. He should definitely be given some Ireland games at 12.

Podge_irl

If Marshall starting ahead of Wallace this weekend is a pre cursor to him getting the position for the HEC games then he has to very definitely come in to the reckoning.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

If Marshall starting ahead of Wallace this weekend is a pre cursor to him getting the position for the HEC games then he has to very definitely come in to the reckoning.

Wallace is in good form and has so much more to give at HEC level that I'd imagine that change, if it did happen, would be due to IRFU interest in Marshall.

The way I see it, Ulster have these two guys both of whom are equally as valuable (Wallace added experience in the short term, Marshall better long term value). The kicker might just be a genuine chance of Marshall becoming a regular international and gaining an international contract, which means extra money for Humphreys to spend on pasties.

GerM

Podge_irl wrote: »

If Marshall starting ahead of Wallace this weekend is a pre cursor to him getting the position for the HEC games then he has to very definitely come in to the reckoning.

Very much so. He's head and shoulders above the other candidates for me. In Marhsall, we have a guy who can pass as well as any centre in the country (aside from Wallace), has a good boot which can be used to pin teams back rather than just look for distance, has an appreciation of space and timing and is very strong too. I don't think any other candidate can claim to have such a variety of skills.

If he plays in the HEC and maintains his form, he's automatically in second spot for the 12 jersey pending D'Arcy playing decently and, regardless, should start for Ireland in the summer.

Zyzz

I don't rate Wallace at all, never have never will.

sixy

Zyzz wrote: »

I don't rate Wallace at all, never have never will.

You don't watch Ulster much then

Fireball07

Wallace is a very skilful player, and vital for Ulster...if you want to play a certain type of game, he's probably the best playmaking 12 in the country.

Fishooks13

Wallace is probably the most underrated Irish rugby player of the professional era

Zyzz

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Wallace is probably the most underrated Irish rugby player of the professional era

Eh..

totallegend

Fishooks13 wrote: »

Wallace is probably the most underrated Irish rugby player of the professional era

Opinion of Wallace is unfairly tainted by his period as O'Gara's understudy at fly-half. He's not a great out-half, never was, but he's an excellent inside-centre and deserves far more credit than he gets.

It's like people writing Tom Court off as a loosehead on the basis of Twickenham 2012, only more so.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Opinion of Wallace is unfairly tainted by his period as O'Gara's understudy at fly-half. He's not a great out-half, never was, but he's an excellent inside-centre and deserves far more credit than he gets.

It's like people writing Tom Court off as a loosehead on the basis of Twickenham 2012, only more so.

He has hardly ever played 10, so I don't think anyone wrote him off because of that. He has had one or two good games for Ireland at inside centre (NZ down there for one), but I think his lack of physicality/robustness was more of an issue. My abiding memory of him internationally will be him with his head bandaged during the Grand Slam year.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

He has hardly ever played 10, so I don't think anyone wrote him off because of that. He has had one or two good games for Ireland at inside centre (NZ down there for one), but I think his lack of physicality/robustness was more of an issue. My abiding memory of him internationally will be him with his head bandaged during the Grand Slam year.

His head bandaged against France, when he played excellently?

I always wonder why people point to that game as evidence of him not being big enough. Does more weight make your facial skin less likely to get cut?

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

His head bandaged against France, when he played excellently?

I always wonder why people point to that game as evidence of him not being big enough. Does more weight make your facial skin less likely to get cut?

IIRC, he cut his face in a clash of heads with Heaslip or O'Driscoll. So getting clocked by one of your own team-mates is now a reason to write off a player. Intriguing.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

His head bandaged against France, when he played excellently?

I always wonder why people point to that game as evidence of him not being big enough. Does more weight make your facial skin less likely to get cut?

I did say robust enough. He was always breaking fingers/hands as well etc.

Did he not get injured against someone else as well that 6Ns (maybe Italy?) Then there was the penalty against Wales that Stephen Jones missed! (I wouldn't hold it against him btw).

I think he is a very good HCup players - just short of international class. Might have been better if he wasn't moved around so much in his early career as David Humphreys had nailed the no.10 jersey for Ulster. Players like Ian Madigan should take a good look at what happened to Paddy Wallace and Jeremy Staunton.

Higher

Oh my god... the bandage on his head was WHITE :eek: FOR ULSTER!

I know what you mean jm08, this is just like the time you questioned Heaslip for wearing a blue (i.e Leinster!) scrumcap playing for Ireland.

Clearly Wallace, like Heaslip, has no loyalty to the team. I assume this is what you meant?

Wallace got 30 caps for his country in a position that had one of the best inside centres in the world in it, playing at the exact same time as Wallace was available.

Absolutely zero shame to be behind D'Arcy in the pecking order, and he forced himself ahead of D'Arcy on more than one occasion too.

He's not only a brilliant footballer (in terms of his thinking game), he's an outstanding defender considering his size. Proving that technique is king.

He was never more than an emergency 10, and his repetitive selection on the bench as 10 cover was an absolutely dire tactic by El Kidders. Means that he's probably got the most bench time of any player in the pro era, as there was almost no hope that he'd be introduced into the game at 12 barring an injury 'just in case' ROG got hurt later in the game.

Another case of terrible development and treatment of a fine player.

jm08

Higher wrote: »

Oh my god... the bandage on his head was WHITE :eek: FOR ULSTER!

I know what you mean jm08, this is just like the time you questioned Heaslip for wearing a blue (i.e Leinster!) scrumcap playing for Ireland.

Clearly Wallace, like Heaslip, has no loyalty to the team. I assume this is what you meant?

Does Heaslip wear a scrumcap? News to me! I have seen him wear a green & white bandage though!

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Wallace got 30 caps for his country in a position that had one of the best inside centres in the world in it, playing at the exact same time as Wallace was available.

Absolutely zero shame to be behind D'Arcy in the pecking order, and he forced himself ahead of D'Arcy on more than one occasion too.

He's not only a brilliant footballer (in terms of his thinking game), he's an outstanding defender considering his size. Proving that technique is king.

He was never more than an emergency 10, and his repetitive selection on the bench as 10 cover was an absolutely dire tactic by El Kidders. Means that he's probably got the most bench time of any player in the pro era, as there was almost no hope that he'd be introduced into the game at 12 barring an injury 'just in case' ROG got hurt later in the game.

Another case of terrible development and treatment of a fine player.

11 of Wallace's 16 starts for Ireland were when Kidney was coach. It seems to have escaped your notice that Kidney only used Wallace for the 6Ns GS as outhalf cover - he capped Sexton the following autumn.

Higher

jm08 wrote: »

Does Heaslip wear a scrumcap? News to me! I have seen him wear a green & white bandage though!

Was it not you complaining the time he wore a blue scrumcap?

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

11 of Wallace's 16 starts for Ireland were when Kidney was coach. It seems to have escaped your notice that Kidney only used Wallace for the 6Ns GS as outhalf cover - he capped Sexton the following autumn.

how many games did Wallace sit on the bench for 80 minutes for?

That's what I'm talking about.

jm08

Higher wrote: »

Was it not you complaining the time he wore a blue scrumcap?

Obviously not if I can't remember noticing him wearing a scrum cap of any description.

Higher

jm08 wrote: »

Obviously not if I can't remember noticing him wearing a scrum cap of any description.

Apologies had a search and that was Cpt Blackbeard during the WC

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

how many games did Wallace sit on the bench for 80 minutes for?

That's what I'm talking about.

Lots (but for Eddie O'Sullivan, not Declan Kidney).

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

I did say robust enough. He was always breaking fingers/hands as well etc.

When was he always breaking fingers/hands? I don't remember this. He's been ever present for Ulster the past few years. The only semi-major injury I can remember him having was the one he postponed surgery for in order to travel to New Zealand and play for Ireland.

I think the only way to avoid injuries like you're talking about is to avoid contact, as we can see from the injury records of guys like O'Gara and Cipriani. Wallace cut his face against France, Strauss cut his face against South Africa (I think it was them), Jennings cut his face against someone else this season. None of them have special facial skin that rips itself apart, it's just a part of the game. Wallace broke his finger at some point (you haven't really referred to any event in particular), Stander broke his finger this season, Sexton broke his hand a year ago, Howlett broke a bone in his hand, as did Downey. None of those players have special hands that break themselves, it's just a part of the game.

Did he not get injured against someone else as well that 6Ns (maybe Italy?) Then there was the penalty against Wales that Stephen Jones missed! (I wouldn't hold it against him btw).

I think I remember his head injury reoccurring at some point during that 6 Nations alright.

The penalty was daft.

I think he is a very good HCup players - just short of international class. Might have been better if he wasn't moved around so much in his early career as David Humphreys had nailed the no.10 jersey for Ulster. Players like Ian Madigan should take a good look at what happened to Paddy Wallace and Jeremy Staunton.

How many times had Wallace played 10 for Ulster the past 5 years? The only time I remember him playing there was when Kidney ordered that he should start at 10, and McLoughlin was happy about that. Pretty sure he's been a 12 for a very long time and the only people who haven't accepted that are the Irish management.

Madigan doesn't need to worry. He's a 10 who has played 15 this season because of an injury crisis. He's not exactly being moved there or considered a 15 on a permanent basis. It's guys like McFadden and Earls who need to settle on a position (and I think both of them have).

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

When was he always breaking fingers/hands? I don't remember this. He's been ever present for Ulster the past few years. The only semi-major injury I can remember him having was the one he postponed surgery for in order to travel to New Zealand and play for Ireland.

Just compare his appearances to D'Arcy (even Andrew Trimble) and even though D'Arcy missed a whole season for Leinster they are not as good which would lead one to believe that since he is undroppable by his club, he must be injured a bit.

He certainly missed some Ireland games because small hand injuries etc.

I think the only way to avoid injuries like you're talking about is to avoid contact, as we can see from the injury records of guys like O'Gara and Cipriani. Wallace cut his face against France, Strauss cut his face against South Africa (I think it was them), Jennings cut his face against someone else this season. None of them have special facial skin that rips itself apart, it's just a part of the game. Wallace broke his finger at some point (you haven't really referred to any event in particular), Stander broke his finger this season, Sexton broke his hand a year ago, Howlett broke a bone in his hand, as did Downey. None of those players have special hands that break themselves, it's just a part of the game.

Paddy Wallace: 150 (+33 sub) appearances for Ulster. First season 01-02. Ireland 16 +14.
Andrew Trimble: 144 (+4 sub) appearances for Ulster. First season 05-06.
Ireland 37 +12.
Mafi: Career total: 164 (+18) appearances. First season (for Taranaki) 04-05.

Trimble has had his own injury problems and he has nearly as many games in a much shorter career. All this leads me to believe he isn't as robust as some other players.

How many times had Wallace played 10 for Ulster the past 5 years? The only time I remember him playing there was when Kidney ordered that he should start at 10, and McLoughlin was happy about that. Pretty sure he's been a 12 for a very long time and the only people who haven't accepted that are the Irish management.

Madigan doesn't need to worry. He's a 10 who has played 15 this season because of an injury crisis. He's not exactly being moved there or considered a 15 on a permanent basis. It's guys like McFadden and Earls who need to settle on a position (and I think both of them have).

Wallace was played mainly at fullback for Ulster (and backup 10) up to about 2006. They are the career parellels with Wallace & Staunton that Madigan should be mindfull of.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Just compare his appearances to D'Arcy (even Andrew Trimble) and even though D'Arcy missed a whole season for Leinster they are not as good which would lead one to believe that since he is undroppable by his club, he must be injured a bit.

He certainly missed some Ireland games because small hand injuries etc.




Paddy Wallace: 150 (+33 sub) appearances for Ulster. First season 01-02. Ireland 16 +14.
Andrew Trimble: 144 (+4 sub) appearances for Ulster. First season 05-06.
Ireland 37 +12.
Mafi: Career total: 164 (+18) appearances. First season (for Taranaki) 04-05.

Trimble has had his own injury problems and he has nearly as many games in a much shorter career. All this leads me to believe he isn't as robust as some other players.

Except Wallace made his debut in the 2001/2 season because he was a good young back and Ulster had a very shallow squad and so they put him in at full back. Like Henshaw for Connacht this season. This was remedied thanks to Bryn Cunnigham the next season and Wallace barely played that season. Nothing to do with injury, Ulster had Cunnigham, Bell and Humphreys at 15, 12, 10.

Then the next couple of years he was a bit part player. He was very frustrated during that period because he really thought he deserved to be starting at 12 but he was behind Johnny Bell still and so he was stuck playing for Ballymena that season. Again, absolutely nothing to do with injury, just due to Johnny Bell. Here's what he said about it afterwards:

How do you deal with disappointment if you are not selected?

That's easy. I think of April 2006. Most players go through tough times in their career whether it’s a drop in form or injury; mine would be when I couldn't get into the Ulster Squad in 2006. I remember one Saturday I was driving home from Limerick after playing for Ballymena, we were beaten by about 30 points... I felt that I was at rock bottom. However just three weeks later I was playing in the centre for Ulster when we lifted the Celtic League title in Swansea and I have been ever present since.

Again. Not because of injuries, because it was a tough position to break into in the team at that time.

Look at his annual appearances since that season, when he has actually been 1st choice: 24, 20, 15, 16, 21, 15, (+10 this season). Hardly missing a beat, just slightly decreased numbers in seasons he's been with Ireland.


You're just blindly posting numbers from a period you clearly weren't following very closely and then assuming, completely incorrectly, that injuries had absolutely anything to do with it.

EDIT: I'm not saying he wasn't injured during that period by the way, he was as much as any young professional. I'm just putting context to the numbers you were unable to.

bilston

Wallace broke into the Ulster team as a 10 when Humphreys was injured back in about 2000 or 2001, then unfortunately he broke his leg and from then on he never got a consistant run at 10 or 12 for that matter for years. When he did come back Alan Solomons played him at 15 and while he was an attacking threat he was also a liability. That must have damaged his confidence but he stuck at it and got his rewards eventually even if it took longer than it should have.