Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

jm08 wrote: »

You only see Cave at Provincial/Club level. According to the experts, international rugby is about 20% faster than Heineken Cup, so maybe that is why Cave looks to have great vision, speed of though etc. at HC/Rabo level.

The other thing .... Rob Kearney or Felix Jones are no Jared Payne (who everyone seem to think will be in the 13 slot as soon as he is IQ.

Do you think Cave is slower than BOD was in 2009? Cave certainly isn't slower now and no one is saying BOD isn't fast enough to play 13 for Ireland

You don't need electric pace to be a top level 13, in fact, most of them don't have it. And Cave isn't even slow, not lightening, but not slow

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

You only see Cave at Provincial/Club level. According to the experts, international rugby is about 20% faster than Heineken Cup, so maybe that is why Cave looks to have great vision, speed of though etc. at HC/Rabo level.

The other thing .... Rob Kearney or Felix Jones are no Jared Payne (who everyone seem to think will be in the 13 slot as soon as he is IQ.

How are we supposed to know Cave doesn't have it at international level if he doesn't get a fair crack at it? Start him against Samoa I say if BOD doesn't make it. He's always been a solid defender and the Samoans will try to bludgeon us.

jm08

bilston wrote: »

If BOD is a doubt and Earls is required to play on the wing then I'd be amazed if another centre wasn't added to the squad. It won't necessarily be Cave but I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

I don't think he will be for the simple reason that Cave really isn't a bench option as he can only play in one position.

He may be brought in for training (a la James Coughlan & Jennings get called in), but I don't think he will make a 23 man squad.

former legend

thomond2006 wrote: »

How are we supposed to know Cave doesn't have it at international level if he doesn't get a fair crack at it?

Exactly. The guy has had 7 minutes of international rugby outside of north America.

Yet another victim of Declan Kidney IMO.

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

How are we supposed to know Cave doesn't have it at international level if he doesn't get a fair crack at it? Start him against Samoa I say if BOD doesn't make it.

Whats a fair crack? He has been on a couple of tours already (Canada, US Tour x 2) and NZ tour. I'd say the coaching staff know it at this stage and that is why he was left out. Everyone says he is a very intelligent footballer etc. But at the end of the day, you just can't beat pace.

People comment that BOD doesn't have the pace he once had, but he still has great acceleration.

awec

jm08 wrote: »

Whats a fair crack? He has been on a couple of tours already (Canada, US Tour x 2) and NZ tour. I'd say the coaching staff know it at this stage and that is why he was left out. Everyone says he is a very intelligent footballer etc. But at the end of the day, you just can't beat pace.

People comment that BOD doesn't have the pace he once had, but he still has great acceleration.

Did you just make that up there now?

P.Walnuts

P.Walnuts wrote: »

This is a strange post...

Are you pretty much saying "you can' argue with my opinion, here is some data I made up on the spot to prove my point"?

No, I'm highlighting that it is not a simple problem as has been presented many times.

"Earls is an average centre, do we have any other average centres, ipso facto, Earls plays centre"

And have given an example of how easily it is to understand this when you look at a backline as a whole instead of just a single shirt.

jm08

former legend wrote: »

Exactly. The guy has had 7 minutes of international rugby outside of north America.

Yet another victim of Declan Kidney IMO.

I think he played against the Babarians as well (starting in the centre). As far as I can recall hearing, he had a poor day.

He is a victim of his lack of pace and versatility (not having the pace to play in the outside backs even at club level).

ScissorPaperRock

former legend wrote: »

Exactly. The guy has had 7 minutes of international rugby outside of north America.

Yet another victim of Declan Kidney IMO.

A victim of having Ireland's greatest ever player playing at the same time, and of only playing one position. IMO.

P.Walnuts

To be fair Cave has had decent opportunities on US tours and not really made a mark, I don't see the logic that he is going to start playing better for Ireland against higher standard opposition.

He is a good player, does alot of things well but he is short of international class imo.

Now whether he is our next best 13 after BOD is a different story, but i'd be more inclined to give someone with more long term potential a shot.

jm08

awec wrote: »

Did you just make that up there now?

Nope ... you hear it a lot from commentators/ex-players. You can get away with a lot if you have the pace to get yourself out of trouble.

P.Walnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

No, I'm highlighting that it is not a simple problem as has been presented many times.

"Earls is an average centre, do we have any other average centres, ipso facto, Earls plays centre"

And have given an example of how easily it is to understand this when you look at a backline as a whole instead of just a single shirt.

Whatever about plucking numbers from mid air, you're still putting forward you opinion as fact.

I'm not sure about Earls at 13 at all, but when you look at how many wingers we have (when fit) then there is a possibility that our strongest backline post BOD could have Earls at 13.

Tox56

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Whatever about plucking numbers from mid air, you're still putting forward you opinion as fact.

I'm not sure about Earls at 13 at all, but when you look at how many wingers we have (when fit) then there is a possibility that our strongest backline post BOD could have Earls at 13.

Post-BOD we will have Jared Payne, for me that is a problem that solves itself

yimrsg

P.Walnuts wrote: »

To be fair Cave has had decent opportunities on US tours and not really made a mark, I don't see the logic that he is going to start playing better for Ireland against higher standard opposition.

He is a good player, does alot of things well but he is short of international class imo.

Now whether he is our next best 13 after BOD is a different story, but i'd be more inclined to give someone with more long term potential a shot.

Cave is 26.

P.Walnuts

yimrsg wrote: »

Cave is 26.

And isn't good enough imo

Tox56

yimrsg wrote: »

Cave is 26.

Cave and Earls were on the same U20 team

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

Everyone says he is a very intelligent footballer etc. But at the end of the day, you just can't beat pace.

Which is why Downtown Gary Brown was such a phenomenal rugby player.

Assuming an ability to run at least faster then a prop, pace would be well down on the list of things I'd look for in a 13 - acceleration yes, but that's completely different.

Now I think Cave has been underwhelming any time he has played for Ireland and I don't think he has a long term future in the position internationally, however I do think he is a better option than Earls at 13. I'm honestly not 100% sure what Schmidt will do though - I always thought the D'Arcy/McFadden centre partnership was pretty awful, but he picked it quite a few times.

Almaviva

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Joe Schmidt saying the usual "I'd Sean O'Brien moves to France he'll have a shorter career" thing today.

I'd love to see where the evidence of this actually is. If there's any country in Europe that seems to lose back rows early to injury it seems to be Ireland.

Well he could have given Harinordoquy as an example. Only managed 12 year of international career. Theres a warning for SOB.
Contrast with Ferris....

Theres a warning for SOB.

P.Walnuts

former legend wrote: »

Whaaaaaaaaat? How do you make a mark against such vastly inferior teams? How can you write off someone's international prospects on the basis of that? Two tours four years apart counts as a decent opportunity?

Kieran Marmion didn't get one minute of game time in USA and Canada. Paddy Jackson got 20 minutes after Canada had been beaten out the gate. By your logic, they have no future, well that's a shame.

I'm actually embarrassed by some of the posts on this thread.

I'm embarrassed by your seeming inability to understand the word logic

What in the name of god do Marmion and Jackson have to do with it? They didn't much at yes, yes therefore not much can be concluded.

Cave did play, (started both games I think) and didn't impress imo, so it that is why I said he didn't leave a mark.

Please find time to actually read a post before you post nonsense.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Almaviva wrote: »

Well he could have given Harinordoquy as an example. Only managed 12 year of international career. Theres a warning for SOB.

But look how well the player welfare scheme has worked for the likes of Ferris, Wallace, Flannerry <ends sarcasm>

Swiwi.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Joe Schmidt saying the usual "I'd Sean O'Brien moves to France he'll have a shorter career" thing today.

I'd love to see where the evidence of this actually is. If there's any country in Europe that seems to lose back rows early to injury it seems to be Ireland.

To be frank, I wish Schmidt would just concentrate on coaching and leave the politics to others.

jm08

Almaviva wrote: »

Well he could have given Harinordoquy as an example. Only managed 12 year of international career. Theres a warning for SOB.
Contrast with Ferris....

Theres a warning for SOB.

Harinordoquy is French. A non-French player like Parisse might be better to look at.

Parisse has played approx. 300 pro. games at the age of 30.
Harinordoquy has played approx. 250 games at the age of 33.

former legend

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I'm embarrassed by your seeming inability to understand the word logic

OK, let's look at the "logic" that you were questioning, namely that Cave would play better in the full Irish team against better opposition.

Against the USA and Canada, he was playing in a team that was pretty much thrown together from scratch. I presume he had never played with or maybe even trained with Madigan before and he had international debutants (Olding and Downey) inside him at 12 in each game. So I'd give him a bit of slack there.

But the Ulster backline on Saturday was;
Pienaar, Jackson, Trimble, Marshall, Cave, Bowe, Payne
That is a genuinely international class backline who are well used to each other. Not to mention the fact that the opposition were infinitely superior to the USA or Canada. So is that not a much better benchmark of Cave's ability than some meaningless test against a bunch of part-timers?

Was Cave found wanting? No, it's very rare that he is.

jm08

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

But look how well the player welfare scheme has worked for the likes of Ferris, Wallace, Flannerry <ends sarcasm>

Well, none of them had to retire due to being over-played - over training might have been the problem for Ferris & Flannery. Wallace was 36 (which most would consider to be a reasonable innings).

Then you had Quinlan, Stringer & ROG, Heaslip all in pretty good nick.

P.Walnuts

former legend wrote: »

OK, let's look at the "logic" that you were questioning, namely that Cave would play better in the full Irish team against better opposition.

Against the USA and Canada, he was playing in a team that was pretty much thrown together from scratch. I presume he had never played with or maybe even trained with Madigan before and he had international debutants (Olding and Downey) inside him at 12 in each game. So I'd give him a bit of slack there.

But the Ulster backline on Saturday was;
Pienaar, Jackson, Trimble, Marshall, Cave, Bowe, Payne
That is a genuinely international class backline who are well used to each other. Not to mention the fact that the opposition were infinitely superior to the USA or Canada. So is that not a much better benchmark of Cave's ability than some meaningless test against a bunch of part-timers?

Was Cave found wanting? No, it's very rare that he is.

Ok so you've abandoned using Marmion and Jackson to attack my logic, nice.

Now you're onto the players around him, wonder where the next stop will be.

Look i'm not saying Cave is a bad player, i'm just saying I don't think he is a good enough to be a successful international 13.

Buer

jm08 wrote: »

Harinordoquy is French. A non-French player like Parisse might be better to look at.

Parisse has played approx. 300 pro. games at the age of 30.
Harinordoquy has played approx. 250 games at the age of 33.

As always there is the truth and what you claim and there's generally enough room to drive a truck between the two with a significant amount of further information available for anyone bothered.

Sergio Parisse has played 278 professional games, 98 of which were for Italy.
Imanol Harinordoquy has played 317 professional games, 86 of which were for France.

On further examination, it's even more stark. Harinordoquy has played just over 13,000 minutes of rugby in the T14. Parisse has played just over 9,000.

Bogota

This is getting quite funny.

A couple of posters are literally throwing any kind of muck they can make stick on Darren Cave because they are so utterly obsessed with the idea of Earls at 13.

Cave is not slow, nor is he old. He is the same age as Earls and faster than O'Driscoll.

Synode

Yes but does he look intimidating wearing a pair of headphones

former legend

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Ok so you've abandoned using Marmion and Jackson to attack my logic, nice.

Now you're onto the players around him, wonder where the next stop will be.
.

Would you not agree that a player will look better with better players around him?!

One word answer; who would you pick?

P.Walnuts

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Whatever about plucking numbers from mid air, you're still putting forward you opinion as fact.

I'm not sure about Earls at 13 at all, but when you look at how many wingers we have (when fit) then there is a possibility that our strongest backline post BOD could have Earls at 13.

That you cannot present a multivariate problem as has been done is a fact. My example (made up numbers) is a proof of that.
/science

My point, which I've repeated, is that you cannot simply say "Earls is best 13 available, he plays 13", without considering the rest of the backline. By choosing to play Earls at 13 you give up the chance of playing him on the wing ( there is only one of him).
/rugby example

If an in-form Zebo, a fully match fit Fitzgerald, a confident Gilroy were available, the gap from Earls to the next winger might be less than the gap from Earls to the next best centre. In those cases then the relative increase in "expected performance" from playing the form winger out of position might make sense.

Given the current standings and player availability, I don't believe that it does make sense to move him from the wing when we have able and in-form options (Cave), and players with great potential (Marshall, Olding, Henshaw) available to us.
/opinion