Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

P.Walnuts

former legend wrote: »

Would you not agree that a player will look better with better players around him?!

One word answer; who would you pick?

Possibly, I was more commenting on the scatter gun appaoch to the poster's argument.

Post BOD, I think I would have Payne as No.1 with hopefully one of Macken or Henshaw making a step up in the next season as a viable option too, but if needs be I'd probably have Earls over Cave.

jm08

Buer wrote: »

As always there is the truth and what you claim and there's generally enough room to drive a truck between the two with a significant amount of further information available for anyone bothered.

Sergio Parisse has played 278 professional games, 98 of which were for Italy.
Imanol Harinordoquy has played 317 professional games, 86 of which were for France.

On further examination, it's even more stark. Harinordoquy has played just over 13,000 minutes of rugby in the T14. Parisse has played just over 9,000.

And Parisse is 3 years younger and played in Italy for a couple of years before Stade.

He also missed out the 09/10 season through injury.

jacothelad

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I'm embarrassed by your seeming inability to understand the word logic

What in the name of god do Marmion and Jackson have to do with it? They didn't much at yes, yes therefore not much can be concluded.

Cave did play, (started both games I think) and didn't impress imo, so it that is why I said he didn't leave a mark.

Please find time to actually read a post before you post nonsense.

Did you watch both games?

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Did you watch both games?

Did you?

P.Walnuts

jacothelad wrote: »

Did you watch both games?

First was a narrow win against USA, second was a decent win against canada.

So yes I did.

yimrsg

jm08 wrote: »

Well, none of them had to retire due to being over-played - over training might have been the problem for Ferris & Flannery. Wallace was 36 (which most would consider to be a reasonable innings).

Then you had Quinlan, Stringer & ROG, Heaslip all in pretty good nick.

According to you Heaslip is due an injury any day now.

jm08 wrote: »

Heislip has had a great fitness record, but the game has become increasingly attritional and that fitness record may go against him at the end of the day.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80266797&postcount=389

Mahatma Geansai

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That you cannot present a multivariate problem as has been done is a fact. My example (made up numbers) is a proof of that.
/science

My point, which I've repeated, is that you cannot simply say "Earls is best 13 available, he plays 13", without considering the rest of the backline. By choosing to play Earls at 13 you give up the chance of playing him on the wing ( there is only one of him).
/rugby example

If an in-form Zebo, a fully match fit Fitzgerald, a confident Gilroy were available, the gap from Earls to the next winger might be less than the gap from Earls to the next best centre. In those cases then the relative increase in "expected performance" from playing the form winger out of position might make sense.

Given the current standings and player availability, I don't believe that it does make sense to move him from the wing when we have able and in-form options (Cave), and players with great potential (Marshall, Olding, Henshaw) available to us.
/opinion

The point has always been that Earls at 13 is the best use of resources considering our relative strengths at 13 and on the wing.

Mahatma Geansai

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The point has always been that Earls at 13 is the best use of resources considering our relative strengths at 13 and on the wing.

Perhaps you should say that instead of exactly the point that I have argued against?

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

An average international centre is still better than any of our other options who are average at Rabo/HEC level.

Buer

jm08 wrote: »

And Parisse is 3 years younger and played in Italy for a couple of years before Stade.

He also missed out the 09/10 season through injury.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make any longer aside from blatantly misrepresenting the situation with false claims.

Parisse's injury was suffered while on Italy duty and in training.

Regardless, whether foreign or domestic players, these guys have not been affected by playing in France over the long term. They've both had massive international careers and long, successful T14 careers. They're well minded.

thomond2006

It might have been Jackman that said that French clubs don't train hard compared to other teams, the idea being that players will then be able to play more often.

It's not in anyone's interests to flog players.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

It might have been Jackman that said that French clubs don't train hard compared to other teams, the idea being that players will then be able to play more often.

That's been a known thing for a while. The big draw back is conditioning, fitness conditioning especially, is lacking then. Case point would be Philips in the 6N this year.

jm08

yimrsg wrote: »

According to you Heaslip is due an injury any day now.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80266797&postcount=389

Not too sure what point you are making? Is it that rugby isn't as attritional as 10 years ago so that Heaslip should look forward to a long career, unlike Flannery (33 when he retired) and Ferris (who is always injured)?

jm08

Buer wrote: »

I have no idea what point you're trying to make any longer aside from blatantly misrepresenting the situation with false claims.

Parisse's injury was suffered while on Italy duty and in training.

Regardless, whether foreign or domestic players, these guys have not been affected by playing in France over the long term. They've both had massive international careers and long, successful T14 careers. They're well minded.

I may have misunderstood your post, but I certainly have not trying to misrepresent anyone's claims.

I think the point I'm making is that Non-French players may get to play a lot more than French players and that Parisse is a better comparison to make with than Harindoquoy.

Foxtrol

What I’ve taken from Schmidt’s selections with Leinster is that there’s a fair chance he’s not going to pick the ‘best’ player in a given position but the player whose skillset fits the tactics he wants to play for the game in question. His continued selection of the Darcy-McFadden combo over a potential Darcy-O’Malley one, mostly in away games, used to really annoy me but it fit into the type of game he wanted to play and in many cases Leinster came away with the results they needed.

I have a feeling there’s going to be a couple of selections he’s going to make that aren’t going to be too popular, especially from the ‘why isn’t he getting abuse for the decisions that Kidney used to get’ brigade, but I think we’ll need to give him the benefit of the doubt that there’s a reason why he’s picking a given player and the team will utilize him a certain way, rather than playing the same turgid style of rugby no matter who’s in the side.

oneshot0kill

Why does Cave get so much flak. He reminds me of Conrad Smith in the way he plays. Now I know he isn't of the same calibre. Conrad Smith is by far a more accomplished and better player. However, people are mentioning Caves pace (pace beats intelligence blah blah blah) to be such a determining factor to why he shouldn't be Ireland's 13. Smith isn't stepping and waltzing his way past defenders because he doesn't have that speed. They are similar in that they don't rely on pace but on having a good understanding of the game.

When Cave's in a settled backline where everyone knows their roles he is a very good player. He's usually in the right place at the right time defensively and offensively, correct me if i'm wrong but he rarely makes a mistake in either. He also nearly always seems to be in the thick of a flowing backs move not because he's sliced a defence apart but because he is there when someone has. He looks for people off his shoulder whether it be out of the tackle or not and plays the role of support well. I just think he's a very clean player and if he was named at 13 it would be safe to say it wouldn't be his fault if Ireland lost the game. But put Earls in at 13 and you can point out his defensive ability down that channel and again, correct me if i'm wrong, but whenever i've seen him play he runs the ball like he's playing as a wing. Earls isn't a player that gets the most out of those around him. I've seen him butcher tries after he makes a break because he tries to take it on his own. He's a strike runner best suited to one of the outside back positions.

Kayless

Foxtrol wrote: »

What I’ve taken from Schmidt’s selections with Leinster is that there’s a fair chance he’s not going to pick the ‘best’ player in a given position but the player whose skillset fits the tactics he wants to play for the game in question. His continued selection of the Darcy-McFadden combo over a potential Darcy-O’Malley one, mostly in away games, used to really annoy me but it fit into the type of game he wanted to play and in many cases Leinster came away with the results they needed.

I have a feeling there’s going to be a couple of selections he’s going to make that aren’t going to be too popular, especially from the ‘why isn’t he getting abuse for the decisions that Kidney used to get’ brigade, but I think we’ll need to give him the benefit of the doubt that there’s a reason why he’s picking a given player and the team will utilize him a certain way, rather than playing the same turgid style of rugby no matter who’s in the side.

I've been saying it for a while now Schmidt pick each team with a game plan in mind but the flip side of this is that players will work harder at there clubs known they may get selected.

With Kidney you could predict the team a few weeks in advance with a decent amount of accuracy, makes me wonder how the fringe players must have felt.

irishbucsfan

I think Darren Cave's level is the way he played last season with the odd great performance sprinkled in. That's fine, but it's not international standard.

I think he should definitely be in the squad though if BOD is in any way questionable.

.ak

Yeah. For me a centre (inside or outside) doesn't need pace. Pace is a good option to have, but the primary skills required are power, explosiveness, distribution, tackling, decision making under pressure and probably a lot more before we get to pace. Once you've got gas over 10m you can do all the damage you need to.

Cave might not be the ideal candidate for international rugby, but many reasons, but pace is not one of them imo.

irishbucsfan

Kayless wrote: »

I've been saying it for a while now Schmidt pick each team with a game plan in mind but the flip side of this is that players will work harder at there clubs known they may get selected.

With Kidney you could predict the team a few weeks in advance with a decent amount of accuracy, makes me wonder how the fringe players must have felt.

I think you may be getting a little bit ahead of yourself, it might be worth waiting until we see Schmidt's Ireland selections.

oneshot0kill

Who would people consider international quality? So far i've seen Henshaw, Earls, Olding, Marshall (those last two I'd prefer to be at 12 as a 2nd playmaker or kicker) and Payne. Personally I can't wait for Payne to be IQ but even then he's 28. I've never seen Henshaw play. He seems to be a big solid lump but what else does he bring?

Will be interesting to see Schmidt's pecking order for the tighthead, second row and midfield over the next year.

awec

Personally, I think Darren Cave can count himself very unfortunate that his position happens to be the same one as Ireland's best player and one of the best players in the world.

He is never going to displace BOD when BOD is fit, and he isn't versatile enough to warrant a bench spot. As such many people probably see him as a bit of an unknown quantity - because if I'm honest I believe Munster and Leinster players are much more well known by the average Ireland fan than Ulster players.

The only way to know for sure if he'll do it for Ireland is if he gets a fair chance.

dtpc191991

.ak wrote: »

Yeah. For me a centre (inside or outside) doesn't need pace. Pace is a good option to have, but the primary skills required are power, explosiveness, distribution, tackling, decision making under pressure and probably a lot more before we get to pace. Once you've got gas over 10m you can do all the damage you need to.

Cave might not be the ideal candidate for international rugby, but many reasons, but pace is not one of them imo.

I agree completely with this and for me Munster is the prime example. Munster have two wingers with top class potential yet they are unable to utilise this attacking talent to its greatest extent due to the fact that their 10,12,13 axis is majorly lacking in distribution skills. At least two of 10,12 or 13 need those skills. Sexton, D'Arcy, Marshall or Sexton, Marshall, Cave would give us all three, Earls would not. His pace and explosiveness are fantastic but he does not have the passing/offloading game of the above two at 13 therefore I would leave him on the wing where his skillset is at its most destructive.

jm08

.ak wrote: »

Yeah. For me a centre (inside or outside) doesn't need pace. Pace is a good option to have, but the primary skills required are power, explosiveness, distribution, tackling, decision making under pressure and probably a lot more before we get to pace. Once you've got gas over 10m you can do all the damage you need to.

Cave might not be the ideal candidate for international rugby, but many reasons, but pace is not one of them imo.

I suppose it should really read pace/stamina/fitness level.

If you are say running in a group who are more comfortable with a pace than you are, you are going to tire more quickly and start making poor decisions. All your energy goes into trying to keep up.

Conrad Smith might not be as fast as a lot of centres, but what he does have is the stamina & pace of a middle distance runner, rather than a sprinter. From NZ reports, he is as strong at the end of a game as he is at the start. Similar I suppose to Roy Keane in having a 'great engine' if not the fastest and covered every blade of grass.

I don't think I've ever seen that in Cave's game.

Interesting from Saturday's game - Cave handled the ball 12 times to Payne's 21, who is the real playmaker in that team.

ScissorPaperRock

Kayless wrote: »

With Kidney you could predict the team a few weeks in advance with a decent amount of accuracy, makes me wonder how the fringe players must have felt.

I'd imagine we can fairly accurately predict the team right now. There are only a few of positions - mostly on the bench - where it looks like it might be uncertain - marked by a *

(assuming no injuries)

Healy
Best
Ross
POC
Ryan*
POM
SOB
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Earls
Marshall
BOD
Bowe
Kearney

Kilcoyne
Cronin
Fitzpatrick*
Toner*
Henderson*
Reddan*
Jackson
Fitzgerald*

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

jm08 wrote: »

.

Interesting from Saturday's game - Cave handled the ball 12 times to Payne's 21, who is the real playmaker in that team.

Payne was playing at 15. 15's handle the ball a lot more than a 13

jm08

dtpc191991 wrote: »

I agree completely with this and for me Munster is the prime example. Munster have two wingers with top class potential yet they are unable to utilise this attacking talent to its greatest extent due to the fact that their 10,12,13 axis is majorly lacking in distribution skills. At least two of 10,12 or 13 need those skills. Sexton, D'Arcy, Marshall or Sexton, Marshall, Cave would give us all three, Earls would not. His pace and explosiveness are fantastic but he does not have the passing/offloading game of the above two at 13 therefore I would leave him on the wing where his skillset is at its most destructive.

I wouldn't say either D'Arcy or Marshall have good distribution skills. Paddy Wallace would be a good distributor though.

In Marshall's 50 minutes on Saturday, Marshall didn't pass the ball once. Olding made 2 passes when he came on.

For the record, Cave passed the ball 6 times on Saturday with 1 offload.
Laulala gave 15 passes & 5 offloads.

For the record, I'm no fan of Lauala's hail mary offloads, but its incorrect to say he doesn't distribute.

oneshot0kill

jm08 wrote: »

I suppose it should really read pace/stamina/fitness level.

If you are say running in a group who are more comfortable with a pace than you are, you are going to tire more quickly and start making poor decisions. All your energy goes into trying to keep up.

Conrad Smith might not be as fast as a lot of centres, but what he does have is the stamina & pace of a middle distance runner, rather than a sprinter. From NZ reports, he is as strong at the end of a game as he is at the start. Similar I suppose to Roy Keane in having a 'great engine' if not the fastest and covered every blade of grass.

I don't think I've ever seen that in Cave's game.

Interesting from Saturday's game - Cave handled the ball 12 times to Payne's 21, who is the real playmaker in that team.

Conrad Smith is the fittest in the AB squad. However, that doesn't mean Cave is keeling over near the end of games or is he losing much speed. He's a professional athlete.

And as said, fullbacks handle the ball a lot more having to cover kicks and joining the line for attack plays.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

jm08 wrote: »

I wouldn't say either D'Arcy or Marshall have good distribution skills. Paddy Wallace would be a good distributor though.

In Marshall's 50 minutes on Saturday, Marshall didn't pass the ball once. Olding made 2 passes when he came on.

For the record, Cave passed the ball 6 times on Saturday with 1 offload.
Laulala gave 15 passes & 5 offloads.

For the record, I'm no fan of Lauala's hail mary offloads, but its incorrect to say he doesn't distribute.

Marshall is a very good distributor

jm08

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Payne was playing at 15. 15's handle the ball a lot more than a 13

Laulala handled the ball 31 times on Saturday to Felix Jones' 11 times.

Kearney handled it 21 times to Macken's 5 times (52 mins).

Ulster use Payne as their playmaker as such. Why do you think everyone wants him to move to outside centre?

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

I wouldn't say either D'Arcy or Marshall have good distribution skills. Paddy Wallace would be a good distributor though.

In Marshall's 50 minutes on Saturday, Marshall didn't pass the ball once. Olding made 2 passes when he came on.

For the record, Cave passed the ball 6 times on Saturday with 1 offload.
Laulala gave 15 passes & 5 offloads.

For the record, I'm no fan of Lauala's hail mary offloads, but its incorrect to say he doesn't distribute.

Number of passes is not necessarily a good measure of how good a distributor one is. Not much use giving out 20 passes if they're all badly timed and inaccurate.