Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

oneshot0kill

jm08 wrote: »

Laulala handled the ball 31 times on Saturday to Felix Jones' 11 times.

Kearney handled it 21 times to Macken's 5 times (52 mins).

Ulster use Payne as their playmaker as such. Why do you think everyone wants him to move to outside centre?

Payne can play 13 and has done so.

I don't get what handling a ball has to with distribution. Does it mean they passed it or just caught the ball? Or both?

.ak

I would say D'Arcy is actually the best distributor (at 12) in the country. He won't dish out a load of ooh-ahh passes but he times his offloads well and puts people into space.

It's unfortunate state of affairs, but D'Arcy is still the best 12 in the country. Really hope Marshall kicks on, but he's got plenty of time on his side.

jm08

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Marshall is a very good distributor

He may well be, but he wasn't doing much distributing on Saturday.

Just checked the week before againt Leicester:
Marshall 4 passes, Cave 2.
Cave handled the ball 8 times. Marshall handled it 7 times. Payne 25 times (with 8 passes).

danthefan

daniigan wrote: »

Payne can play 13 and has done so.

I don't get what handling a ball has to with distribution. Does it mean they passed it or just caught the ball? Or both?

Kearney would have handled the ball so many times because he fields kicks, which Macken doesn't. That's not rocket science.

awec

Payne gets plenty of touches of the ball when teams put ball to boot against us. It's of no surprise to see his touch count high.

Swiwi.

I really don't see why Cave is being discussed: he didn't make the 42 man squad. I know some people say he might now get selected that BOD is injured, but you can't tell me that the 2nd best outside centre in the country couldn't make a 42 man squad, but will be picked to start in the AIs? I will be more than happy to eat humble pie if he does get picked, even though I will be surprised.

jm08

daniigan wrote: »

Payne can play 13 and has done so.

I don't get what handling a ball has to with distribution. Does it mean they passed it or just caught the ball? Or both?

Its a combination of what they do with the ball when they get it, such as kicking, passing or running with the ball.

Swiwi.

Swiwi. wrote: »

I really don't see why Cave is being discussed: he didn't make the 42 man squad. I know some people say he might now get selected that BOD is injured, but you can't tell me that the 2nd best outside centre in the country couldn't make a 42 man squad, but will be picked to start in the AIs? I will be more than happy to eat humble pie if he does get picked, even though I will be surprised.

Zebo's injury means that there are two positions up for grabs now, and if that means that our backup 13 (who's been doing really well on the wing this season) moves to the wing, then the original squad being down the first and backup outside centre means we'll need to bring someone in.

Tox56

Swiwi. wrote: »

I really don't see why Cave is being discussed: he didn't make the 42 man squad. I know some people say he might now get selected that BOD is injured, but you can't tell me that the 2nd best outside centre in the country couldn't make a 42 man squad, but will be picked to start in the AIs? I will be more than happy to eat humble pie if he does get picked, even though I will be surprised.

Problem is Zebo is injured too.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

He may well be, but he wasn't doing much distributing on Saturday.

Just checked the week before againt Leicester:
Marshall 4 passes, Cave 2.
Cave handled the ball 8 times. Marshall handled it 7 times. Payne 25 times (with 8 passes).

Just because he didn’t distribute a load of ball this week or last proves nothing, so why point it out?

It’s like me saying Earls is a poor finisher because he didn’t score a try over the last two weekends.

*Earls is a very good finisher but it shows your continued use of stats with no context is pointless when it comes to most aspects of rugby.

oneshot0kill

danthefan wrote: »

Kearney would have handled the ball so many times because he fields kicks, which Macken doesn't. That's not rocket science.

?

jm08 wrote: »

Its a combination of what they do with the ball when they get it, such as kicking, passing or running with the ball.

Ah ok.

Regarding Cave being picked. He may not have been picked initially because he only plays 13 and BOD would have started. Come game time a utility would have come in for BOD if he did get injured. But if knowledge becomes certain that BOD doesn't make it then Cave, a pure 13, could be brought in. That's what I hope for but the other reason he didn't get picked initially because he wasn't deemed good enough most likely will be right. Sadly.

Swiwi.

Deleted User wrote: »

Zebo's injury means that there are two positions up for grabs now, and if that means that our backup 13 (who's been doing really well on the wing this season) moves to the wing, then the original squad being down the first and backup outside centre means we'll need to bring someone in.

Tox56 wrote: »

Problem is Zebo is injured too.

I guess it partly comes down to whether Schmidt views Earls as a centre or not. Ditto for Fitzgerald.

I must say, I wish he would name the damn thing, seems like the Celtic Nations are dragging the chain on naming their squads, whereas Eng, Fra, SANZAR, and the PIs have all named theirs as far as I'm aware (patience is a virtue, I know...)

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

Problem is Zebo is injured too.

So available wings now are Bowe, McFadden, Trimble, Earls, Luke Fitz?, Dave Kearney, Gilroy?

I've a question mark after Luke & Gilroy because of recent injuries.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

I wouldn't be surprised to see Niall Morris start one of the AI's

P.Walnuts

awec wrote: »

Personally, I think Darren Cave can count himself very unfortunate that his position happens to be the same one as Ireland's best player and one of the best players in the world.

He is never going to displace BOD when BOD is fit, and he isn't versatile enough to warrant a bench spot. As such many people probably see him as a bit of an unknown quantity - because if I'm honest I believe Munster and Leinster players are much more well known by the average Ireland fan than Ulster players.

The only way to know for sure if he'll do it for Ireland is if he gets a fair chance.

People who don't agree with me are ignorant type arguments arn't that clever to be fair

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Just because he didn’t distribute a load of ball this week or last proves nothing, so why point it out?

It’s like me saying Earls is a poor finisher because he didn’t score a try over the last two weekends.

*Earls is a very good finisher but it shows your continued use of stats with no context is pointless when it comes to most aspects of rugby.

I pointed it out because Lauala & Downey seem to be regarded as poor distributors, while Cave & Marshall are regarded as good ones! The perception is wrong.

Earls has a fair few tries to his name over the years to suggest he is a good finisher and 2 out of 5 games this season so far.

Earls put in a very good defence shift this weekend - Munster's 2nd highest tackler.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

I pointed it out because Lauala & Downey seem to be regarded as poor distributors, while Cave & Marshall are regarded as good ones! The perception is wrong.

You haven't proven this. You've just proven that over the course of a couple games LLL and Downey passed the ball more. Its an utterly irrelevant stat without context. You can pass the ball 40 times in a match and still be a bad distributor. Its about the quality of the pass, the timing of the pass, whether its the right option or not, whether you fix any defenders before passing etc.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

You haven't proven this. You've just proven that over the course of a couple games LLL and Downey passed the ball more. Its an utterly irrelevant stat without context. You can pass the ball 40 times in a match and still be a bad distributor. Its about the quality of the pass, the timing of the pass, whether its the right option or not, whether you fix any defenders before passing etc.

Actually, I wouldn't rate Downey as much of a passer/distributor and he isn't used that much by Munster (he wasn't at the weekend). Everything was going through Casey who got to handle the ball more than anyone else other than the halfbacks.

Players won't be given the ball to distribute if they are not good at it (or the coaches plan will be to get the ball to their best distributor/attacker as much as possible).

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

I pointed it out because Lauala & Downey seem to be regarded as poor distributors, while Cave & Marshall are regarded as good ones! The perception is wrong.

Earls has a fair few tries to his name over the years to suggest he is a good finisher and 2 out of 5 games this season so far.

Earls put in a very good defence shift this weekend - Munster's 2nd highest tackler.

Podge pretty much brought up most of the points I was going to make about context.

So you use Earl’s previous history of try scoring but judging Marshall and Cave on passing stats from a sample of just the last two weeks, seems fair.

POM put in only 4 tackles and missed 1, seems like from those stats he’s a defensive liability. :rolleyes:

All of these are great examples as to why stats to a large extent useless when it comes to rugby, especially when someone hasn’t seen/analysed the game/player in question before looking at the stats.

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Podge pretty much brought up most of the points I was going to make about context.

So you use Earl’s previous history of try scoring but judging Marshall and Cave on passing stats from a sample of just the last two weeks, seems fair.

POM put in only 4 tackles and missed 1, seems like from those stats he’s a defensive liability. :rolleyes:

All of these are great examples as to why stats to a large extent useless when it comes to rugby, especially when someone hasn’t seen/analysed the game/player in question before looking at the stats.

who said I was only looking at a sample of just last weekend. Here are some more for you:

v Saracens last season - handled the ball 3 times to Paynes 29 times (on for 57 minutes)
v Castres: Cave 14, Payne 23.
v Glasgow: 4 times (70 mins), Payne 10.
Northampton: 13; Payne 19.

Do I need to go on?
One interesting thing is that when Paddy Wallace was playing, Payne handled the ball less.

No matter what you think about stats, if he doesn't get to handle the ball, he doesn't get to distribute it.

jacothelad

Foxtrol wrote: »

Podge pretty much brought up most of the points I was going to make about context.

So you use Earl’s previous history of try scoring but judging Marshall and Cave on passing stats from a sample of just the last two weeks, seems fair.

POM put in only 4 tackles and missed 1, seems like from those stats he’s a defensive liability. :rolleyes:

All of these are great examples as to why stats to a large extent useless when it comes to rugby, especially when someone hasn’t seen/analysed the game/player in question before looking at the stats.

Will you never learn......:D

shuffol

Going by how Leinster played under Schmidt I think Cave would suit his style of play well. He's a very intelligent player with good hands. I'd like to see how he and Sexton would link up together. Credit must also be given to him for keeping Olding out of Ulsters side, he's clearly responded really well to the competition.

ScissorPaperRock

shuffol wrote: »

Going by how Leinster played under Schmidt I think Cave would suit his style of play well. He's a very intelligent player with good hands. I'd like to see how he and Sexton would link up together. Credit must also be given to him for keeping Olding out of Ulsters side, he's clearly responded really well to the competition.

Has Olding played at 13 yet?

chippers

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Has Olding played at 13 yet?

Think he came on at 13 against Leicester in the first round

RoundBox11

jm08 wrote: »

who said I was only looking at a sample of just last weekend. Here are some more for you:

v Saracens last season - handled the ball 3 times to Paynes 29 times (on for 57 minutes)
v Castres: Cave 14, Payne 23.
v Glasgow: 4 times (70 mins), Payne 10.
Northampton: 13; Payne 19.

Do I need to go on?
One interesting thing is that when Paddy Wallace was playing, Payne handled the ball less.

No matter what you think about stats, if he doesn't get to handle the ball, he doesn't get to distribute it.

First if all, if your going to talk about Cave's distribution why not compare the silly stats to earls' rather than paynes. Payne will obviously pass more due to 1) fielding kicks and counterattacking from these positions 2) Ulster run their attack through him.

Also if your going to compare his passing stats to Laulala, keep in mind that Munster use him as one of their 2 attacking options. As has been mentioned before, I wouldn't consider unsuccessful offloads as a sign of good distribution either.

I personally think earls at 11 and cave at 13 makes more sense. Although I do think this massive argument is totally unnecessary at this point in time as BOD hasn't been ruled out for the AIs yet anyway.

jm08

shuffol wrote: »

Going by how Leinster played under Schmidt I think Cave would suit his style of play well. He's a very intelligent player with good hands. I'd like to see how he and Sexton would link up together. Credit must also be given to him for keeping Olding out of Ulsters side, he's clearly responded really well to the competition.

Strange how he dropped him then from a 42 man squad.

jm08

RoundBox11 wrote: »

First if all, if your going to talk about Cave's distribution why not compare the silly stats to earls' rather than paynes. Payne will obviously pass more due to 1) fielding kicks and counterattacking from these positions 2) Ulster run their attack through him.

Also if your going to compare his passing stats to Laulala, keep in mind that Munster use him as one of their 2 attacking options. As has been mentioned before, I wouldn't consider unsuccessful offloads as a sign of good distribution either.

I personally think earls at 11 and cave at 13 makes more sense. Although I do think this massive argument is totally unnecessary at this point in time as BOD hasn't been ruled out for the AIs yet anyway.

Earls is not rated as a distributor. Cave is lauded as one.

danthefan

Swiwi. wrote: »

I really don't see why Cave is being discussed: he didn't make the 42 man squad. I know some people say he might now get selected that BOD is injured, but you can't tell me that the 2nd best outside centre in the country couldn't make a 42 man squad, but will be picked to start in the AIs? I will be more than happy to eat humble pie if he does get picked, even though I will be surprised.

There were a few absentees from the squad. I think Gilroy was another, Schmidt apparently though he'd be better off in the Ulster setup at the time. I wouldn't be surprised if he was involved in a squad for the AIs at all. Especially under the current circumstances, with BOD injured.

danthefan

Rumour Donnacha Ryan is going to be out long-term with a knee injury. I didn't see the Munster game, did he go off injured? Blow to Ireland if he's out.

RoundBox11

jm08 wrote: »

Earls is not rated as a distributor. Cave is lauded as one.

earls is not a rated distributor? So you acknowledge earls shouldn't be playing 13?