Do you personally know any Irish Jews?

Wibbs

mayotom wrote: »

Also Why is it that many jewish people fail to identify with their country of birth?
I have travelled a lot due to work and have met many people where the chit chat conversation brings up the question. Where are you from? in answer most people answer with a recognised Country, Some minorities would say places like the Basque country or Kurdistan. But the most confusing for me is the Answer I'am Jewish. I never asked them what their religion was.. So why tell me. This has happened at least a dozen times over the past few years. Why? I have never had anybody of any other religion reply in this way.

Historical reasons for the most part. Plus whether they identified as [insert country here] depended on how individual societies/countrys in history regarded them as a group.

To be fair they've bloody good reason to feel separate, even paranoid throughout the last 2000 years. The nazi muppets back in the 1930's didn't invent the hatred out of thin air. The joke was that Germany was one of the more integrated cultures regarding Jews before that madness kicked off, so if it could happen there... They've been identified in christian Europe as "christ killers" and "well poisoners" and all sorts of daft crap for a very long time and had been isolated, threatened and murdered for it. That prick Goebbels and his lackeys just recycled all that shít.

So you can understand them feeling more "Jewish" than "Irish/British/German/etc". After all if the society sees you as "Jew" first(regardless of background or even practice of faith) it makes sense for you to do the same. Look at some of the stuff on this thread and it's very tame(noses? Seriously?), but there's an awful lot of guff about regarding them as a group.

delthedriver

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I worked in a job with two Irish Jews, one was the soundest bloke you could meet, one a complete dick (nothing to do with his faith, he would have been a dick regardless). It's a shame to see the fall in numbers among the Jewish community because of young people leaving for London, Manchester and so on, but given the fact that the majority of Irish Jews are Orthodox it's probably understandable as it must be difficult to live here given the lack of kosher shops and restaurants, not to mention marriage partners.

I am sorry to hear that the numbers of people in the Irish Jewish Community is in such decline . It seems a shame that they have to move on to Manchester etc.my recollection of the young Jewish girls at school, reminds me that they were all beautiful, bright , intelligent , ladies whom I thought would have no difficulty in finding marriage partners

Benny_Cake

Wibbs wrote: »

Historical reasons for the most part. Plus whether they identified as [insert country here] depended on how individual societies/countrys in history regarded them as a group.

To be fair they've bloody good reason to feel separate, even paranoid throughout the last 2000 years. The nazi muppets back in the 1930's didn't invent the hatred out of thin air. The joke was that Germany was one of the more integrated cultures regarding Jews before that madness kicked off, so if it could happen there... They've been identified in christian Europe as "christ killers" and "well poisoners" and all sorts of daft crap for a very long time and had been isolated, threatened and murdered for it. That prick Goebbels and his lackeys just recycled all that shít.

So you can understand them feeling more "Jewish" than "Irish/British/German/etc". After all if the society sees you as "Jew" first(regardless of background or even practice of faith) it makes sense for you to do the same. Look at some of the stuff on this thread and it's very tame(noses? Seriously?), but there's an awful lot of guff about regarding them as a group.

Yeah, before the 1930s the Zionist movement in Germany was almost non-existent, but things changed as the Nazi persecution began. Up until then German Jews would have seen themselves as 100% German. They were always a very small minority of the German population but produced some big names and great minds,such as the Mendelsohn family, Karl Marx, and Albert Einstein. That wasn't enough to save them however.

I can't say that I've ever met someone who identified as Jewish when asked where they were from though. It's obviously an big part of their identity, but any Jews I've ever met loved their country as much as anyone else.

Benny_Cake

delthedriver wrote: »

I am sorry to hear that the numbers of people in the Irish Jewish Community is in such decline . It seems a shame that they have to move on to Manchester etc.my recollection of the young Jewish girls at school, reminds me that they were all beautiful, bright , intelligent , ladies whom I thought would have no difficulty in finding marriage partners

Orthodox Judaism discourages intermarriage though and since most Irish Jews are Orthodox the pool of talent is somewhat limited! I think that there is a Progressive synagogue in Dublin too, they generally don't have a big problem with intermarriage but they are a minority within the community here.

biko

Maybe I do know some Irish Jews, it hasn't come up in conversation. I know some Israelis living here though.

Ravelleman

Many.

ProudDUB

It's not about the ladies not being bright or beautiful enough to attract marriage partners, its that the potential marriage partners are just not there in numbers enough to satisfy the needs, of both sexes I'd imagine. If there are only a couple of thousand Jewish people in Ireland, only a few hundred of them would be single men & women in the 25-35 age demographic. That is a very, very small pool of people to chose from if you want to meet and marry within your faith, but still marry someone whom you love and are actually attracted to.

Morag

Yes several, nice people the lot of them.

nacho libre

One of my worst friends is from Israel. He loved his first visit to Ireland and wants to come back. His girlfriend loves Irish music and our landscape, but won't come here because of what has been spoken about earlier in this thread.

...__...

I know many Jews from a lot of countries Ireland being one of them. I also know when someone is full of **** like when people say there Jewish andthere not. Something quite scary in that obsession.

Siuin

mayotom wrote: »

Also Why is it that many jewish people fail to identify with their country of birth?

That's bizarre. Once again, I've never met a Jewish person who would ever answer with "I'm Jewish" when asked where they're from. I can understand bitterness towards one's country of birth because of the actions of their government against them. However, like anyone else you'll always find people who are more or less patriotic than others. I'd happily say that I'm both nationalist and Jewish- I don't see any contradition between the two. That said, once I finish my studies I don't intend on staying in Ireland.

As has already been discussed, there's a real lack of suitable partners here- it'd seem almost incestuous to date anyone from the community at this stage! :P We've spent waaay too much time together! It's very common for Americans, Israelis or Eastern Europeans to attend services while they're working here short term or just passing through and they offer the possibility of a match. I've been introduced to a few guys this way (usually by their mothers lol). They're generally men who would be 8-10 years older than me and considered more 'marriage minded'- however, almost all of them turn out to have a non-Jewish girl lurking in the background though.

I've dated non-Jewish guys and they're great, but the older I get the more I'd like to have a Jewish family where I wouldn't always have to explain everything all the time. That said, I have many Israeli friends who have settled down with Irish non-Jewish guys and are extremely happy. They find a way of balancing the two traditions and were posting pictures of their menorah in front of a big Christmas tree on facebook recently :P But these girls don't attend services or have any interest in being observant, which is fine. I'm thinking I'd like to cover my hair and go to the mikveh when I'm married though, not to mention having a proper Jewish wedding, and if you marry a non-Jewish guy it simply isn't happening.

olly_mac

I have a number of Jewish friends. All Irish.

Rhys Essien

nacho libre wrote: »

One of my worst friends is from Israel. He loved his first visit to Ireland and wants to come back. His girlfriend loves Irish music and our landscape, but won't come here because of what has been spoken about earlier in this thread.

What was that?

Seaneh

mayotom wrote: »

So you are saying that people CAN look like a jew, contrary to earlier discussion on this thread.


Also Why is it that many jewish people fail to identify with their country of birth?
I have travelled a lot due to work and have met many people where the chit chat conversation brings up the question. Where are you from? in answer most people answer with a recognised Country, Some minorities would say places like the Basque country or Kurdistan. But the most confusing for me is the Answer I'am Jewish. I never asked them what their religion was.. So why tell me. This has happened at least a dozen times over the past few years. Why? I have never had anybody of any other religion reply in this way.

A any Irish or American Jews I know would answer "Irish" or "American" if asked their nationality. I even know an Iranian Jewish Family living in London (left just before the Islamic Revolution) and they identify themselves as Iranian... I've never met anyone, outside of Israel, who would answer "I'm Jewish". And even then, it tended to be American Jewish students, not Israelis, who usually said "Israeli".

Defiler Of The Coffin

Very interesting thread with some excellent contributions from Siuin! First time I met an Irish Jew was in Sydney a few years ago, had no idea of her creed until she told me. She didn't seem in any way 'Jewish' to me but that was probably down to simple ignorance on my part. Certainly had a few questions for her! I don't think there's many of them in the West of Ireland, from what I gather from this thread they seem to be mainly concentrated in Cork and Dublin?

Alan Shatter is Jewish also I believe?

Carlos Orange

Siuin wrote: »

That's bizarre. Once again, I've never met a Jewish person who would ever answer with "I'm Jewish" when asked where they're from. I can understand bitterness towards one's country of birth because of the actions of their government against them. However, like anyone else you'll always find people who are more or less patriotic than others.

I guess the issue of dual loyalties is a touchy one. I was in India with a French friend in December 2008. There was a French guy on his mobile and my friend was a bit put out because the French guy (presumably Jewish) was referring to the IDF as we. They were both French and both Jewish but had very different identities. I don't think many Irish people would refer to a foreign army as we but then some of them think the RIRA is the Irish army. In practice I feel I have far more in common with people from other countries that read XKCD than I do with most Irish people.

MadYaker

Yeah Alan Shatter is Jewish. I always think the fact that our minister for justice is jewish and nobody cares is great. Can you imagine what would happen in the USA or the UK or any other western democracy if a jewish man was made minister for justice? I don't think it could ever happen.

Death and Taxes

MadYaker wrote: »

Yeah Alan Shatter is Jewish. I always think the fact that our minister for justice is jewish and nobody cares is great. Can you imagine what would happen in the USA or the UK or any other western democracy if a jewish man was made minister for justice? I don't think it could ever happen.

Michael Howard former British Home Secretary (then equivalant of Justice Minister) and also Conservative Leader.
Plenty of Jewish politicans in the UK and USA, always has been.

InTheTrees

Not sure if this has been mentioned but one of the former presidents of Israel was from Belfast, thats a pretty lofty achievement.

"Herzog was born at Cliftonpark Avenue in Belfast, the son of notable Rabbi Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog, who was Chief Rabbi of Ireland from 1919 to 1937 (and later, of Palestine and Israel),[2] and Sara (née Hillman).[citation needed] The family home (from 1919) was at 33 Bloomfield Avenue, Portobello in Dublin, Ireland. His father, a fluent speaker of the Irish language, was known as "the Sinn Féin Rabbi" for his support of the First Dáil and the Irish Republican cause, during the Irish War of Independence. [3]Herzog studied at Wesley College, Dublin and was involved with the Federation of Zionist Youth during his teenage years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Herzog

Madam_X

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's not, you're clearly being obtuse. Same as how if someone described Irish people as white when some aren't.

Ah now... You obviously know she means not all Jewish people have the look of, say, Ross from Friends. Yes, those physical traits are common among a number of Jews, but there are also Jews who have completely different facial traits, hair colour, skin tone. Surely you know that?

Seaneh wrote: »

They are though, probably more so. In India, China, some Muslim countries (in Iran it's fairly common for Christian's to be targeted by the Islamic Guard and other fanatical groups, where as in Tehran, Jewish communities tend to be left alone)and Israel (Especially in the North, 1500 year old monasteries being destroyed and the monks forced out of the area by recent European/American settlers). Oh, and certain areas of Northern Scandinavia...

But we're obviously talking about Ireland on this thread.

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair they've bloody good reason to feel separate, even paranoid throughout the last 2000 years. The nazi muppets back in the 1930's didn't invent the hatred out of thin air. The joke was that Germany was one of the more integrated cultures regarding Jews before that madness kicked off, so if it could happen there... They've been identified in christian Europe as "christ killers" and "well poisoners" and all sorts of daft crap for a very long time and had been isolated, threatened and murdered for it. That prick Goebbels and his lackeys just recycled all that shít.

Yeh, some unreal horror going on in e.g. former Soviet countries long before the nazi regime. Good film about that - not Fiddler On The Roof but The Fixer.

InTheTrees

MadYaker wrote: »

Can you imagine what would happen in the USA or the UK or any other western democracy if a jewish man was made minister for justice? I don't think it could ever happen.

Can we imagine?

Kid, the USA is the largest jewish country and yes, there have been jewish Attorneys General (the equivalent of "minister for justice").

Dunno about the UK but both Milliband brothers are jewish arent they?

And wasnt Disraeli jewish?

Here's a list of jewish US Supreme Court justices (a higher honour than Attorney General):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_United_States_Supreme_Court_justices

looksee

looksee wrote: »

Buttonftw, would you ever leave the goalposts alone? And checking up on the meanings of 'irony' and 'whataboutery' would help too.

What?

Madam_X wrote: »

Ah now... You obviously know she means not all Jewish people have the look of, say, Ross from Friends. Yes, those physical traits are common among a number of Jews, but there are also Jews who have completely different facial traits, hair colour, skin tone. Surely you know that?

As I was accused of above, goalposts are being moved. It's similar to how it would be fair to assume that someone with a surname of O'Something had recent Irish heritage even though the majority of people in Ireland now don't have such surnames.

HoggyRS

I've always been quite interested in anti-semitism in Ireland as part of my interest in the history of the far right in this country. Some notable Irish anti-semites were Arthur Griffith, Fr. Denis Fahey and all those involved in Ailtirí na hAiséirghe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailtir%C3%AD_na_hAis%C3%A9irghe).

InTheTrees

Lets clear one thing up. Judaism isnt a race.

You cant identify a jew from a blood test.

Anyone can convert at any time they want and once they do they'll be jewish.

Basically they've been persecuted for so many thousands of years that they're learned to stick to themselves hence the confusion about race.

Rhys Essien

George Hook is from Jewtown in Cork.(No 79.Albert Road)

Wibbs

InTheTrees wrote: »

Lets clear one thing up. Judaism isnt a race.

No, but it's more associated with one population of people than most religions. Like Hinduism and unlike the other Abrhamic faiths they don't seek conversions as part of their faith.

You cant identify a jew from a blood test.

It depends. Most Jews would have European genetic markers because of their very long time in the place and intermarriage, but they would also have middle eastern markers too. Indeed IIRC there were a group of sub Saharan Africans whose cultural history/legends said they were a "lost tribe" and they followed an an unorthodox form of the faith. They were found, or some of them anyway had middle eastern markers(particularly the men I seem to remember?).

Anyone can convert at any time they want and once they do they'll be jewish.

It's not like Christianity or Islam where you essentially "turn up*", converting to Judaism is quite the longwinded process.


*OK that's simplistic, but with Islam you basically say you believe in the prophet and away you go. Christianity is a little more longwinded but not by that much.

Rhys Essien

Very good documentary here called Shalom Belfast.It was only filmed this year in Northern Ireland by the Jewish filmmaker Itamar Ben Canaan.Well worth a watch.Its only 40mins long.Its about the people in the Norths views on Israeli's and Palestinians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpvZMbhG5Dc

Rhys Essien

The first Jew in politics in Ireland was the elected Mayor of Youghal in Cork in 1555.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Annyas

InTheTrees

Wibbs wrote: »

It depends. Most Jews would have European genetic markers because of their very long time in the place and intermarriage, but they would also have middle eastern markers too. Indeed IIRC there were a group of sub Saharan Africans whose cultural history/legends said they were a "lost tribe" and they followed an an unorthodox form of the faith. They were found, or some of them anyway had middle eastern markers(particularly the men I seem to remember?).

SO to recap... No, you cant identify jews from a blood test.

Geographical markers have no connection to religious belief.

Siuin

psinno wrote: »

I guess the issue of dual loyalties is a touchy one. I was in India with a French friend in December 2008. There was a French guy on his mobile and my friend was a bit put out because the French guy (presumably Jewish) was referring to the IDF as we. They were both French and both Jewish but had very different identities. I don't think many Irish people would refer to a foreign army as we but then some of them think the RIRA is the Irish army. In practice I feel I have far more in common with people from other countries that read XKCD than I do with most Irish people.

It's really interesting to see how people perceive themselves so differently despite technically having the same identity. Personally, if I was talking about Israelis or the IDF in conversation I would say 'we', much the same as I would about Irish people. It's not that I don't feel Irish, but I just would affiliate myself with them simply because they're Jews too.