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Views of Pornography?
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Isn't is 'mad' when a person suggests that to stop watching porn regularly/occasionally as a means to self-improvement, gaining time to use for better things, might actually be beneficial.
Isn't it 'mad' when someone suggests with good reason that porn/masturbation addict may have potential negative effects on society, and impact badly on the addicts health and well-being.
"I couldn't be arsed in any way / shape / form." Is basically all I've seen. People here really love their porn.. you have problems if you love it that much, honest.
....it is rather heartening to see pseudo scientific waffle being dismissed out of hand.0 -
It's not mad to raise the point. It's worth talking about. It is the manner in which you have done so is my issue.
It's full of supposed science, but as soon as people with scientific qualifications (myself included, though I'm referring to the much smarter replies than my own) start to pick some of the outright rubbish in your posts apart you jump onto something else, now it's bro-philosophy. You need to re-read your posts and educate yourself on the mistakes and misinformation you have provided.
Stop calling the links you have given science. There is no legitimate, third party, double blind scientific research in any of it. You are spouting things that are actively wrong across the thread and it creates a dreadful impression. I've been assuming trolling and I see nothing to suggest otherwise.
You show all the signs of an addict who is not out of recovery. You need to point this manic energy inwards and see what is prompting this.
I'm all for debate/experiments etc, but what you are actually coming across as is a rabid addict lecturing those who have no issue from his high horse. Your flagrant and deliberate misinterpretations of others' posts is at best comical and I'm pretty certain it's deliberately inflamatory.
Anyway there's very smart, scientific people here. You haven't put up one good argument with them yet and I assume they are going to keep tearing you apart.
Maybe raise this whole thing again, with some tips:
1) Don't take the superiority angle.
2) Stop tarring everyone with the same brush.
3) Present reasonalbe arguments backed up with proper scientific research, not speculation.
4) Read what others say before replying with hysterical, hystrionic posts.
5) Educate yourself on things like circumcision before making inaccurate/wrong statements.
6) Breathe and relax.
7) Stop assuming we are all like you.
8) Look at yourself before attacking others, you must have an issue to keep persuing this thread / line of reasoning.
9) Don't mention science around scientists unless you know what you are talking about.
10) As per point 9 but with philosophy.
11) Stop blaming society's ills on one thing (porn), and saying things about all men without one iota of research, evidence or common sense.0 -
Isn't is 'mad' when a person suggests that to stop watching porn regularly/occasionally as a means to self-improvement, gaining time to use for better things, might actually be beneficial.
How bad are you at simple repetitive movements that masturbation takes up such a volume of time that you could, legitimately, start to look at it as time that could be spent doing something else?
By this metric, you have spent several minutes regurgitating other peoples bad opinions in an effort to justify your personal choices. This is time you could have spent doing something else.
Why are you still here?Isn't it 'mad' when someone suggests with good reason that porn/masturbation addict may have potential negative effects on society, and impact badly on the addicts health and well-being.
Well, when you do manage to suggest that with "good reason" would you be a dear and let us know?"I couldn't be arsed in any way / shape / form." Is basically all I've seen. People here really love their porn.. you have problems if you love it that much, honest.
I guess it is just easier to blame everyone else for your failure to communicate your pseudo-philosophical nonsense in an effective manner.
Who knew?0 -
hooradiation wrote: »
I guess it is just easier to blame everyone else for your failure to communicate your pseudo-philosophical nonsense in an effective manner.
Who knew?
I heard that the ability to "communicate pseudo-philosophical nonsense in an effective manner" increases by 10% once you stop fapping to porn.
I don't know the science behind it, but I'm sure a BRO will be along shortly to explain it all.0 -
I heard that the ability to "communicate pseudo-philosophical nonsense in an effective manner" increases by 10% once you stop fapping to porn.
I don't know the science behind it, but I'm sure a BRO will be along shortly to explain it all.
I only have a Bachellors Degree in BROology, but I heartily endorse this fact and or product.
Pseudo Philosophical Bull**** or PPB increases after a month of nofap due to the collection of cosmic rays and interferometric pulses: see my scientific research that I haven't linked to. It's by a random person on the Internet so you KNOW it's accurate. The cosmic rays and pulses collect in the nads creating a need to gush inaccurate facts in place of seamen and misinterpreted philosophy. One's sense of self worth increases dramatically. There are only 2 know cures right now: fapping and posting on AH and getting torn to shreds.
If you need help with this condition there are many help resources out there, maybe a sticky with them would help. They include: After Hours, PornTube, RedTube... basically any porn site or any forum where people have a shred of common sense.0 -
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hooradiation wrote: »Well, at least you're being honest in where you've picked this nonsense up from.
I know that all original opinions come from unquestioningly accepting what it says on tv but..
Porn is Mass Idiot Culture, get over it.
You make up 'truths' about myself in order to make your arguments convenient for yourselves and to fit them into a neat, tidy little box where nobody has to question anything that threatens them in their comfortable little world of make-believe. Completely backward.
I have strong suspicions that at least some of ye are social-lunatics/pornheads. (Remember you started the accusations first..)
Look in the mirrior. Good luck!0 -
I know that all original opinions come from unquestioningly accepting what it says on tv but..
Porn is Mass Idiot Culture, get over it.
Once you start inventing terms with the loosest of definitions, then sure.
The problem being that those pieces of make believe you're throwing around are utterly worthless.You make up 'truths' about myself in order to make your arguments convenient for yourselves and to fit them into a neat, tidy little box where nobody has to question anything that threatens them in their comfortable little world of make-believe. Completely backward.
I don't have to make up anything about you. Nor would I have any desire to.
However the acid test of how misguided your perceived persecution by people who "just don't get it" is this.
If your point of view is so inherently correct and obvious, and you so clever for holding it then how have you failed so badly at articulating it, been so lacking at backing it up?
And more to the point, why is that everyone's fault but yours?I have strong suspicions that at least some of ye are social-lunatics/pornheads. (Remember you started the accusations first..)
And I know your bluster is a poor cover for your many failings over this thread. But as someone who advises so many others to "man the fuck up" I'm sure you'll drag yourself up.
You certainly won't continue to blame everyone else - that would be distinctly unmanly, wouldn't it?0 -
Most of that sounds like you're reading a self help book and are reciting it to us. Why not challenge yourself rather than portraying yourself as an expert on a subject that you are not(I pulled an Eramen). At this point you're spouting nonsense. Also in regards to showing some posts to family members, I really don't think that they want to learn about your masturbatory patterns......This psychological analysis was impressive to say to the least, though probably for all the wrong reasons! I'm actually more partial to Carl Jung than the psychoanalysts though, so consider that fair warning for next time!
Actually read your response to two members of my family and we all had a good chuckle :P
It's very clear to me that our philosophies on life, if you even have one, are dramatically different. This is where the misunderstanding of what I am saying stems from. For me one has to take control of his life and to become a navigator of his own destiny. The will-to-power, self-mastery, propelling yourself toward your goals and object, living beyond the cultural conventions of the present age (such as revising the theory that masturbation/porn is positive for most). Why should I in all honesty accept this opinion? It's backward. I challenge that assumption and so should everyone.
It all may sound very grandeur and a mindset of self-delusion or "Nietzschean", which it must to you, but its very ordinary indeed when you get right down to it. Eating better, expanding meaningful relationships, self-correction, not waiting on others for the 'go ahead', learning new languages, new skills, tasking yourself with trying new activities, propelling yourself upward in the workplace, setting up new business links/ventures, founding new intellectual thought/circles, and participating actively within the culture - seeking to build new facets to it.
It is in essence ordinary, but extraordinary in the sense that very few people take advantage of this - of life. In short: "Living up to your words by your deeds". This is a what life is. Life is not static, it's about improvement and cultivation of yourself. Can you not see this? This is what eliminating porn is to me, nothing else.
I know it's hard to grasp, but you are Irishes, why the usual parochial, fake-rebellious, self-impressed mentality? You are the real addict. Porn is a waste of time, it's a fantasy that your better off not wasting your precious time on. Jerking off to it is a loser-mentality that you grow out of. Find a man or woman and get real. It's not so hard. Even then try to make something productive out of the relationship. And yes, porn, it's affected society, especially the young, my age group - and not for the common good.
Learn to challenge yourself. Create and try new things, understand yourself, Man the fúk up. Your life of psychoanalysis is not life. Live dangerously. Even the very least of us can be a ruler, the ruler of themselves!
A sign of addiction is if it begins to impact on day to day performance physically or mentally.... So if what you say is true. You were an addict but now choose to preach to others.... You've basically called all respondents addicts because they don't fit with your world view.I know that all original opinions come from unquestioningly accepting what it says on tv but..
Porn is Mass Idiot Culture, get over it.
You make up 'truths' about myself in order to make your arguments convenient for yourselves and to fit them into a neat, tidy little box where nobody has to question anything that threatens them in their comfortable little world of make-believe. Completely backward.
I have strong suspicions that at least some of ye are social-lunatics/pornheads. (Remember you started the accusations first..)
Look in the mirrior. Good luck!
In regards to porn being an idiot culture, I don't think most people use porn for academic research but that doesn't mean that they don't get their fix of knowledge from elsewhere. Do you really think that everyone here gains all their knowledge from tv?(I've spent most of my day reading academic journals by the way :pac: ) Stop trying to make out that you're superior in knowledge in contrast to everyone else because all you have done is illustrated the contrary. It's exceedingly childish.0 -
I looked at the reddit group that Eramen linked to and I saw this TEDx talk. There's a lot more to this, and it should be genuinely looked into rather than ignored. If you have an open mind give this a watch. It's very interesting:
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This psychological analysis was impressive to say to the least, though probably for all the wrong reasons! I'm actually more partial to Carl Jung than the psychoanalysts though, so consider that fair warning for next time!
Actually read your response to two members of my family and we all had a good chuckle :P
It's very clear to me that our philosophies on life, if you even have one, are dramatically different. This is where the misunderstanding of what I am saying stems from. For me one has to take control of his life and to become a navigator of his own destiny. The will-to-power, self-mastery, propelling yourself toward your goals and object, living beyond the cultural conventions of the present age (such as revising the theory that masturbation/porn is positive for most). Why should I in all honesty accept this opinion? It's backward. I challenge that assumption and so should everyone.
It all may sound very grandeur and a mindset of self-delusion or "Nietzschean", which it must to you, but its very ordinary indeed when you get right down to it. Eating better, expanding meaningful relationships, self-correction, not waiting on others for the 'go ahead', learning new languages, new skills, tasking yourself with trying new activities, propelling yourself upward in the workplace, setting up new business links/ventures, founding new intellectual thought/circles, and participating actively within the culture - seeking to build new facets to it.
It is in essence ordinary, but extraordinary in the sense that very few people take advantage of this - of life. In short: "Living up to your words by your deeds". This is a what life is. Life is not static, it's about improvement and cultivation of yourself. Can you not see this? This is what eliminating porn is to me, nothing else.
I know it's hard to grasp, but you are Irishes, why the usual parochial, fake-rebellious, self-impressed mentality? You are the real addict. Porn is a waste of time, it's a fantasy that your better off not wasting your precious time on. Jerking off to it is a loser-mentality that you grow out of. Find a man or woman and get real. It's not so hard. Even then try to make something productive out of the relationship. And yes, porn, it's affected society, especially the young, my age group - and not for the common good.
Learn to challenge yourself. Create and try new things, understand yourself, Man the fúk up. Your life of psychoanalysis is not life. Live dangerously. Even the very least of us can be a ruler, the ruler of themselves!
To you, that's the key part. It's dressed up pseudo-philosophical bollox designed to prey on people looking for something to make them feel good about their lives (whoever originally wrote the shoite you're regurgitating sounds like a cult leader), but if it makes you happy, go for it.
Just quit preaching to the rest of us like you're some kind of saviour. How are you not getting this?0 -
To you, that's the key part. It's dressed up pseudo-philosophical bollox designed to prey on people looking for something to make them feel good about their lives (whoever originally wrote the shoite you're regurgitating sounds like a cult leader), but if it makes you happy, go for it.
Just quit preaching to the rest of us like you're some kind of saviour. How are you not getting this?
Even if Eramen's posting style posting obtains some hyperbole and even if it's unpalatable to you, do you still deny that there are a number of ethical issues both in relation to pornography and to the industry behind it.
Also can you really refute some of the papers given in the above TED talk that look at pornography and it's relationship both to erectile dysfunction and to the brain. It is interesting to say the least.0 -
philologos wrote: »do you still deny that there are a number of ethical issues both in relation to pornography and to the industry behind it.
There are ethical issues behind EVERY industry on the planet which need to be looked into and addressed... including pornography. No one is denying that I think and if they are I would fight side by side with you to educate them on the matter.
The problem is the ethical issues related to porn are not the nonsense ones you have been ranting about throughout the thread.0 -
Actually read your response to two members of my family and we all had a good chuckle
Laughter is a common defense mechanism in denial. I repeat though what I said that I do not know you or enough about you to judge or analyse. I can however point out that the things you are saying do massively coincide with the patterns of addiction. Including your abuse of the vice to the point it had - your admission not mine - negative impacts on your life in many areas.For me one has to take control of his life and to become a navigator of his own destiny.
Then your impression of the difference between us is flawed because I 100% agree with that. I think where the difference really stems from is that you think the controls in your life have to be the same for everyone - and if they are not then they are failing.
You took control of your own life, choices and destiny. For you that involved giving up pornography and masturbation. That is great. The fact however is that many other people take control of their life, choices and destiny and choose to include these things in that.
That does not make them any more of a success or any more of a failure than you in controlling their life and destiny. It just puts them on a different but just as valid path to you.
The problem is not with their choices. It is not with yours. The problem is with you blanket dismissing the choices of others as damaging or "backward". This drips with a judgemental arrogance that will win no one to your cause or opinions at all - rather as the thread so far has shown it will just anger them and push them away from every considering your viewpoints and arguments - even the valid ones.Eating better, expanding meaningful relationships, self-correction, not waiting on others for the 'go ahead', learning new languages, new skills, tasking yourself with trying new activities, propelling yourself upward in the workplace, setting up new business links/ventures, founding new intellectual thought/circles, and participating actively within the culture - seeking to build new facets to it.
All great things and there is not one thing on that list I do not engage in every day. Again we are on the same page 100% here and your impression of where we diverge is flawed. I espouse all the same things you list above all the time. A lot on boards.ie and a lot in other places. I espouse a philosophy of bettering oneself on a daily basis - of not judging oneself on the standards of others - but against ones own standards. My daily goal in life is to be somehow better/improved today on the person I was yesterday. Mentally, physically, spiritually, philisophically, morally - whatever. In some way however my goal each day is to go to bed that day somehow "better" than I was the day before. It sounds like you and I are in MUCH AGREEMENT here on these issues and have much to share and bring to the world on those subjects.
Where we diverge is that I do not see pornography and masturbation as being mutually exclusive with the things you list above. At all.
Now as an (ex)addict yourself perhaps this is not true for you. you admit your porn and masturbation use was negatively impacting YOUR life and so it probably was corrosive to attaining the things you list above. I am not declaring this. This was your own black and white admission.
As such the choice to give up these things was absolutely the correct one to make. For you.
Your error is in the assumption that ANYONE using these things suffers from the same negative impacts as you. We do not. We include them in our lives in moderation and with no negative impact on attaining the good things you just listed. In fact for many it has POSITIVE impacts in attaining them.
I have a glass of red wine with dinner on occasion too. It does not negatively impact my life in any way or attaining all the good things you just listed. The same will not be true of an alcoholic however. That an alcoholic needs to give up alcohol in order to attain the good goals in no way suggests I need to. That YOU needed to give up porn and mastrubation to attain yours similarly does not mean I need to.
The simple move of no longer judging others by the standards that are true of you will in one swoop correct the vast majority of the errors running through your posts. I heartily and strongly recommend you be mindful of this and consider changing this one small aspect of your approach and watch many other things fall into place around it.Porn is a waste of time
And it is my time to "waste" but much here also depends on how you define "waste" in regards to time. Life is full of stress. Attaining the good things you listed and we agree on is not easy either. We are a species that needs "down time". What can be seen as "time wasting" from one persons perspective is actually "much needed relaxation" for another.
I practice and teach Vipassana meditation too which is wonderfully relaxing and focusing. There too I have had people judging it as a "waste of time". I can see why they would say that too viewing it from the outside. It is - essentially - sitting around doing nothing at all. As we say in Mindfullness Meditation "Don't just do something. Sit there".
What is or is not a "waste of time" is entirely subjective and context dependant however. It may be a "waste of time" for you but that gives you no license to make that judgement call for others. Not only is it not a waste of time for me in isolation - it has on occasion been incorporated into my sex life with the girlfriends I currently live with and has added to - not taken away from - the sexual experience the three of us share.
Once again I recommend being mindful of the perfectly good and valid judegement calls you make for yourself and your own life - and the invalid extrapolation of those calls into a general call for all and sundry around you.Man the fúk up.
It is a common propaganda trick to associate ones opinions with a term or movement that is of common interest. You realise that many men want to be "manly" and so you associate your anti porn position with being manly and suggest that disagreeing with you is not just wrong - it makes you less of a man.
This is - as I said - just propaganda. Transparantly so and I hope no one on the thread falls for it. Everyone tries the same trick. The numbers of people trying to associate things with being "manly" for their own gain is ghastly. Why only this morning before I even logged on to read your reply I saw the Pro Gun lobby in the US doing the same thing. To own a gun - they suggest - is to have your "Man Card" reissued.
To me being "manly" is more about being true to yourself. Giving in to the peer pressure of what other men consider "manly" and altering yourself to conform with their manliness is anything but "manly" to me. It is the entire opposite.
By all means fight your corner and opinions for the reason you think they are "true" and "right". That is great and I support you whole heartedly. If you are fighting them however because you are desperately trying to conform to some arbitrary definition of what you think it means to be a "man" then all I can say - though it will mean nothing to you - is that I could hold no respect for you or your agenda whatsoever.0 -
philologos wrote: »Even if Eramen's posting style posting obtains some hyperbole and even if it's unpalatable to you, do you still deny that there are a number of ethical issues both in relation to pornography and to the industry behind it.
Anything can be made into an ethical issue if someone wants it to be, all you have to do is say that X is bad or good and then state your reasons why you believe it to be. For example:
I believe that coffee is highly addictive (which is backed up by more scientific studies than porn addiction is). Caffeine addiction is socially acceptable and is pervasive in youths today thanks to popularizing in the media and social giants such as starbucks monopolising social gatherings amongst young adults.
After the social convention of gathering in such a way in order to ingest an addictive substance social norms dictate that they will progress to meeting in pubs in later years to continue their social dynamic, however at this point they will transfer their consumption of caffeine to alcohol. Alcohol effects the brain in the same way as caffeine (as both are addictive and produce the same kind of chemical result in the brain), therefore as people transfer from caffeine to alcohol the level of aloohol dependency will raise across the board of society.
This will lead to an increase in alcohol dependence as A: more and more younger people are being conditioned to socialise in social settings such as coffee houses (rather than social clubs, sporting clubs as they did traditionally), and the early introduction of narcotic substances will lead from caffeine addiction to alcoholism.
Caffeine is a gateway drug that will lead to the downfall of Irish society, harbingered by the international media and capitalism. Also, people who don't drink coffee are happier and healthier than those who do. Display your Irishness, fight the evil coffee makers, save your sanity, be a real man! I don't like coffee and I'm sick of everyone else drinking it and not even realising the damage it does to them and the people around them anbd society at large! You will listen to me because I will educate you on how to save yourselves!
By the way, some reports say that slave labour is used in coffee plantations, so if you drink coffee you are supporting slavery.
The above analogy is pretty much the same pseudo-bull**** being used in this discussion. It is pure conjecture based on furthering an agenda (in this case I dont like coffee) being turned into a sociatal catastrophe (propoganda & scare-mongering) that we can be saved from only if we are righteous/strong-willed enough (puritan recruitment nonsense) and using vague and general established scientific realities to stretch for unverified and scientifically insignifigant results (essentially, very, very bad science) in the hope that people will ignore the scientific, stastical reality and focus on the scarey info that preceded it.
Esentially, scare the crap out of people about something, tell them there is only one way to be saved, and then present the only solution, which happens to be the one posessed by the one pointing out the danger. Like I said earlier, this thing sounds like it was written by a cult member, it's practically brain-washing 101.
By the way, there is far more established science behind my coffee theory than there is for your porn one (addictive, danger to society, immoral industry, etc) even though both are tackling the same issue in the same way just regarding different subjects. Coffee doesn't have quite the same moral crusade factor though, does it?philologos wrote: »Also can you really refute some of the papers given in the above TED talk that look at pornography and it's relationship both to erectile dysfunction and to the brain. It is interesting to say the least.
I watched it, it's bad science. Using established fact to put forward unsupported conjecture and stretching to unfounded results. It's not science, it's propoganda.0 -
....
Give me one more medicated, peaceful moment!
Your logic and reasoning here has no place.
As I said someone smarter than I would come along and rip this rubbish to shreds, and Orestes is one of them!
The debate and idea for the debate is good, the methods in the 'porn bad' camp are laughable at best in this. There's good arguments against pornography but wow there's such unscientific rubbish here it is a bit alarming. We're veering into tinfoil hats here. Trying to look intelligent is the quickest route to looking like a total moron.0 -
Anything can be made into an ethical issue if someone wants it to be, all you have to do is say that X is bad or good and then state your reasons why you believe it to be. For example:
I believe that coffee is a highly addictive which is backed up by more scientific studies than porn addiction is). Caffeine addiction is socially acceptable and is pervasive in youths today thanks to popularizing in the media and social giants such as starbucks monopolising social gatherings amongst young adults.
After the social convention of gathering in such a way in order to ingest an addictive substance social norms dictate that they will progress to meeting in pubs in later years to continue their social dynamic, however at this point they will transfer their consumption of caffeine to alcohol. Alcohol effects the brain in the same way as caffeine (as both are addictive and produce the same kind of chemical result in the brain), therefore as people transfer from caffeine to alcohol the level of aloohol dependency will raise across the board of society.
This will lead to an increase in alcohol dependence as A: more and more younger people are being conditioned to socialise in social settings such as coffee houses (rather than social clubs, sporting clubs as they did traditionally), and the early introduction of narcotic substances will lead from caffeine addiction to alcoholism.
Caffeine is a gateway drug that will lead to the downfall of Irish society, harbingered by the international media and capitalism. Also, people who don't drink coffee are happier and healthier than those who do. Display your Irishness, fight the evil coffee makers, save your sanity, be a real man! I don't like coffee and I'm sick of everyone else drinking it and not even realising the damage it does to them and the people around them anbd society at large! You will listen to me because I will educate you on how to save yourselves!
By the way, some reports say that slave labour is used in coffee plantations, so if you drink coffee you are supporting slavery.
The above analogy is pretty much the same pseudo-bull**** being used in this discussion. It is pure conjecture based on furthering an agenda (in this case I dont like coffee) being turned into a sociatal catastrophe (propoganda & scare-mongering) that we can be saved from only if we are righteous/strong-willed enough (puritan recruitment nonsense) and using vague and general established scientific realities to stretch for unverified and scientifically insignifigant results (essentially, very, very bad science) in the hope that people will ignore the scientific, stastical reality and focus on the scarey info that preceded it.
Esentially, scare the crap out of people about something, tell them there is only one way to be saved, and then present the only solution, which happens to be the one posessed by the one pointing out the danger. Like I said earlier, this thing sounds like it was written by a cult member, it's practically brain-washing 101.
By the way, there is far more established science behind my coffee theory than there is for your porn one (addictive, danger to society, immoral industry, etc) even though both are tackling the same issue in the same way just regarding different subjects. Coffee doesn't have quite the same moral crusade factor though, does it?
I watched it, it's bad science. Using established fact to put forward unsupported conjecture and stretching to unfounded results. It's not science, it's propoganda.
The first section of your post doesn't even deal fully with what I posted earlier.
In the second part you claim that the video is propaganda without providing any reason for that view. I'm interested in listening to a serious and considered response to this.
Most of the posts here seem to be just ignoring what has actually been said. There is no harm whatsoever in putting ideas to critical scrutiny.0 -
There is nothing presented that is actually scientific evidence. Sure there's theories, conjecture etc, but nothing that is indepenantly verified, double blind, clinically tested to be seen anywhere. Just HuffPost and other sources that are not proper science. I've a link for 50 books that disprove evolution... but obviously there is no science in them....
I don't think anyone is saying that porn is amazing and there is no wrong in it at all. Anything can be misused; knives, alcohol, chocolate, sex, porn, food, the Internet, video games etc, but without any actual backing to show the ill effects it's a completely hyphothetical argument that are being posted by some people as facts.
Questioning people's manhood as one poster did is just pathetic and any argument presented after that is very hard to take seriously.0 -
philologos wrote: »The first section of your post doesn't even deal fully with what I posted earlier.
In the second part you claim that the video is propaganda without providing any reason for that view. I'm interested in listening to a serious and considered response to this.
Most of the posts here seem to be just ignoring what has actually been said. There is no harm whatsoever in putting ideas to critical scrutiny.
Claiming an idea to be science without backing it up with any scientific verification in order to validate a position is propoganda.
I have no problem putting ideas to critical scrutiny, provided it is done from an impartial and independant viewpoint, something that is not being done in any of the material provided. This stuff is just tabloid crap.0 -
You're just restating your opinion without providing a clear response to anything that was said. I want to hear why you think that his position is wrong with clear reasoning not to have you repeat your position. Help me understand your position better.0
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philologos wrote: »You're just restating your opinion without providing a clear response to anything that was said. I want to hear why you think that his position is wrong with clear reasoning not to have you repeat your position. Help me understand your position better.
Not the way science works. The onus is on the people putting forward the position to back it up and prove it, not to throw something out and have everyone else explain why it is wrong. I think that could explain the problem here:
It is not up to us to prove you wrong, it is up for you to prove yourself right.0 -
The burden of proof rests on the person making the unsubstantiated claims.0
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philologos wrote: »You're just restating your opinion without providing a clear response to anything that was said.
You do realise the above described perfectly your entire Boards.ie career right? In fact my posts have dealt... at some length indeed... with everything you have said. You even posted RIGHT AFTER one of them to claim you would reply to it later.
As expected however you have cut and run as usual and replied to none of it. Literally none.0 -
Fundamentally about fear mongering and sex-negativity.
A lot to take in, but well worth the read..........
The No Fap Hoax
SHORT VERSION
YBOP, TGPE, and nofap are founded on the views of two people who are considered pariahs within the sex and relationship research and clinical communities. They present themselves as experts but aren’t. There’s no empirical research evidence to support any of the claims made by YBOP and TGPE. All the claims about negative effects of internet porn use can be better accounted for by other explanations. Watching internet porn (hopefully ethically produced!) and masturbating are not problematic for the vast majority of people. And for those people who do have a problem with internet porn, it’s almost always a sign of some other underlying problem (shame, anxiety, fear of rejection, relationship problems, boredom, low self-esteem, lack of good sex education, etc.). Addressing those underlying problems should be people’s focus, not abstaining from masturbation to internet porn.
LONG VERSION
Before I get into the problems with YBOP, TGPE, and nofap, a bit about my background to show that I have some expertise in the area. I have PhD in psychology and have studied human sexuality extensively. I’ve published several first-authour papers in reputable peer-reviewed academic journals such as the Archives of Sexual Behaviour and the Journal of Sex Research. I teach a class on human sexuality at one of Canada’s top-ranked universities. I’m also part of a global email listserve that’s populated by many of the best minds (i.e., researchers, theorists and clinicians) in the field of human sexuality. YBOP, TGPE, and nofap have all been discussed extensively on the listserve (well, mostly criticized and ridiculed, largely because Marnia Robinson takes every opportunity she can to spam the list with her claims). So I’m not just another internet hero who thinks he’s boss when he’s clearly not.
On to YBOP, TGPE, and nofap…
This whole movement stems entirely from the work of two people: Marnia Robinson and her partner Gary Wilson (R&W). They are on a crusade against internet pornography. Wilson is a high school science teacher and adjunct instructor at Southern Oregon University, and Robinson is an ex-lawyer who is now a sex and relationship therapist. Neither one of them have been formally educated in research or clinical psychology, and neither one of them have a PhD (i.e., they’re not Drs.). YourBrainOnPorn.com is a pet project of theirs, tied into talks, books, articles, and Ms. Robinson’s therapy practice (Reuniting.info). They run YourBrainOnPorn.com. Wilson is the presenter of the TEDx talk, “The Great Porn Experiment”. R&W regularly blog their work online at “Psychology Today,” which is a non-academic magazine, although I’ve heard rumblings that their gigue may be up. Robinson is also the co-authour of “Cupid’s Poison Arrow,” a non-academic book about her views on sex and relationships. Their website, the TEDx talk and their publications give them a veneer of scientific expertise.
If you do some digging, you’ll find that the links (not people’s personal blogs) in the reddit/r/nofap FAQs are all from the same source: the work of R&W. There’s a reason why there are no other sources – no experts have bought into their theories and viewpoints. R&W have a history of manipulating and/or misrepresenting research findings to support their ideology and claims, ignoring studies (and parts of studies) they’ve cited that contradict them, discussing indirect evidence as if it’s direct supporting evidence, and citing bad research.
R&W are pariahs within the world of sex research and clinical practice. I’m not being an intellectual snob (or at least, I hope I’m not); it’s just that what they’re claiming is completely unsupported by research. This is not to say that they’re trying to deceive people. They clearly believe the ideas they’re promoting, and that they’re making the world a better place. And who knows, perhaps future research will prove them to be correct (I doubt it).
R&W make a litany of claims about the harms of internet porn use. I’ll address a few of the most egregious ones in an effort to keep this short enough that people will hopefully read it. Keep in mind, though, that NONE of R&W’s theories and claims are supported by any peer-reviewed research. It’s all simply speculation presented as fact. They’ve also made what’s considered the gravest error in the research world – interpreting personal anecdotes as empirical evidence.
DOPAMINE AND BRAIN RE-WIRING
Dopamine plays a central in role in the neural networks of the brain that respond to reward. All rewarding (i.e., pleasurable) experiences are associated with increased dopamine activity and increased activity in the corresponding regions of the brain. These experiences can be anything pleasurable for the individual. Neuroplasticity (or re-wiring, as R&W call it) is a phenomenon that occurs all throughout life, although brain development slows down as people enter into adulthood. All our experiences can potentially cause re-wiring, and our wiring influences the way we experience things (i.e., it’s a two-way street). This is a good thing.
The reward system has been the focus of much substance addiction research and many people have claimed that behavioural addictions have the same underlying neurological causes/effects. Within the larger research community, however, there’s still no consensus on so-called behavioural addictions having long-term effects on brain functioning, similar to what’s seen in substance addictions. Many people are very skeptical of behavioural addictions in general, such as internet addictions, sex addictions, porn addictions, etc., as there simply isn’t any strong evidence to show the same degree of brain changes that are seen in people with substance addictions. There are some addiction organizations in the states that equate behaviour and substance addictions; however, this doesn’t represent the views of the entire mental health/medical community.
The most important point, with reference to R&W, is that there is NO evidence whatsoever that watching internet porn causes detrimental changes in the dopamine-reward system (i.e., their whole re-wiring hypothesis). R&W have simply extrapolated from animal models of substance addiction and sexual behaviour (e.g., hamsters, sheep, rats, etc.) to humans watching internet porn. A great example of this is in the TGPE video. Wilson claims, “At the same time, other physical changes in the brain make it hypereactive to porn…”. There is not one single study that has shown this! It’s simply speculation presented as fact.
INTERNET PORN CAUSES MENTAL DISORDERS
In the TGPE video, Wilson states that internet porn use is associated with various clinical disorders including ADHD, depression, social anxiety and OCD. He opposes the prescription of medications to treat these disorders and states, “Guys don’t realize that they can overcome these symptoms simply by changing their behaviour [masturbation to internet porn].” As someone trained in psychology, I find this extremely problematic and entirely unethical. There are literally piles of peer-reviewed research showing that people with mental disorders and/or other psychological problems will often self-medicate with rewarding behaviour or substances. This is at the core of addiction. In other words, the rewarding behaviour (in this case masturbation to orgasm while watching porn) allows the individual to escape from the symptoms caused by his/her mental disorder or psychological problems. There is NO research showing that internet pornography causes mental disorders – none. It’s the other way around – psychological problems and mental disorders can lead to problematic porn use as a means to cope and self-medicate. Wilson is simply presenting his ideology as fact, and in this case, it’s dangerous. People should be seeking treatment for their mental disorders.
ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION
R&W claim that masturbation to internet pornography can cause erectile dysfunction (ED). While they note that porn-induced ED can happen when watching porn, their main concern is ED with a partner. R&W state that through desensitization, men become unable to achieve and maintain erections when with a partner. This desensitization happens because of re-wiring of the brain in response to internet porn (both the vast quantity and variety). R&W tie this into the Coolidge effect. In animals (and likely humans too, although it’s ethically impossible to do the research), introduction of a novel partner to a sexually satiated animal will lead to renewed sexual interest/behaviour.
There is NO empirical evidence to support the porn-ED theory with the exception of an Italian study that R&W repeatedly cite. What R&W don’t tell you is that the study was poorly constructed, and was only presented at a urology conference. It was never peer-reviewed nor published in a reputable journal. In other words, it’s a weak study. Because it hasn’t been published, it’s impossible to evaluate its quality, but based on what’s been reported, it’s a correlational study that didn’t control for many possible confounds (i.e., alternate explanations for the findings). Also, it says nothing about brain re-wiring and ED.
There are, however, far better explanations for the ED that some porn users experience than desensitization of the brain due to brain re-wiring:
1. The more frequent the orgasms, and the longer the stimulation leading up to orgasm, the weaker the subsequent sexual response before being fully recharged. In other words, if you’re fapping for an hour during the day to porn, and then your partner wants to have sex that evening, of course you’re not going to be as interested or respond as strongly. You already used up your mojo, or at least some of it. Abstaining from masturbation and sex will have the opposite effect.
2. Some men will grip themselves in a specific way, or tightly, when they masturbate. Then, when they’re with a real partner, the sensation is different and/or not as intense. This can lead to ED and/or delayed ejaculation.
3. A man whose sole sex life is with himself will likely feel anxiety when with a real partner. And anxiety if a boner killer.
4. Abstaining from masturbation/sex leads to greater and stronger orgasms and ejaculation in the future. This idea has been around for 100s of years. It ties into point 1, as well. This is different than saying that internet porn causes ED.
5. Men may be experiencing ED with, and lack of interest in, their partners for many other reasons (e.g., boredom, relationship conflict, lack of attraction, performance anxiety, etc.).
ESCALATION
Another one of the claims made by R&W is that internet pornography use causes a change in sexual preferences described by R&W as, “escalation to bizarre porn.” This is an oft-repeated statement by the anti-pornography movement. It’s been repeated so many times over the years that people have started to believe that it’s true. It simply isn’t – there is NO empirical evidence to support this claim. And besides, what’s wrong with “bizarre porn,” as long as everyone in it is consenting and it’s ethically produced? A great example of this would be kink.com, a massive ethical producer of various types of kinky (i.e., “bizarre”) internet pornography.
There is a group of porn users who do exhibit tastes in porn that are more atypical (i.e., “bizarre”). However, these users are the minority, and nobody knows if it’s the internet porn use that’s leading to their choices, or if they’re simply people who are curious, kinky, like any content that’s sexual (including content that is more atypical), and/or are simply trying to find what turns them on the most (i.e., it’s exploratory).
In response to R&W, one of the authours of “A Billion Wicked Thoughts,” a book describing a massive study of internet searches (hundreds of thousands) and people’s sexual preferences, stated that men’s tastes in pornography are very stable (more so than women’s, even). Men tend to search for the same few things over and over again. The study showed that less than 1% of people searching for pornography on the web searched for more than four different content types. The 1% typically searched for eight. So, according to their data, “escalation to bizarre porn” simply does not happen. Keep in mind, though, that the study isn’t published in a peer-reviewed journal. But from all appearances and reviews, it does seem to be sound.
TESTOSTERONE
In the reddit/r/nofap FAQs, it states that one of the benefits of nofap is a serum testosterone boost. This is based on the results of a single study published in a Chinese university’s journal. This is an extremely obscure journal, presumably published to try to garner the university’s researchers some exposure, and therefore credibility. I’d be far more likely to give this study any attention if it was published in a reputable journal.
As for the study, it showed that men who were abstinent exhibited a statistically significant increase in testosterone on day 7. For days 1-6, there was no difference, and then on day 8, testosterone decreased back to baseline (i.e., there was no statistically significant difference in testosterone when days 1 and 8 were compared). Assuming this finding could be replicated and the research was sound, the take away message is that being abstinent leads to a spike in testosterone only on day 7, on average, across men. That’s it. I don’t think this is surprising – if you haven’t had a sexual release for a few days you’re going to get some pent up sexual energy, which is correlated with increased testosterone. Eventually the body will get used to that state, and the pent up feeling will dissipate and testosterone will return to baseline.
So, what does this mean, assuming the science is good? If you’re interested in having a testosterone spike for a single day (I’m not sure why you’d want this – there’s no correlation between acute testosterone levels and any performance improvement), then don’t masturbate or have sex for 7 days. You’ll then need to repeat the pattern if you want to have another spike. I’m sure you’ll be cranky as all hell for that week, though.
WHAT BETTER EXPLAINS THIS SO-CALLED INTERNET PORN PROBLEM?
All the claims put forward by R&W have not been studied, and perhaps future research will validate some of the nutty things they’ve stated. But for the time being, there are several much better possible explanations for what R&W have claimed.
Laziness and Fear of Rejection
Not having an easy sexual outlet (i.e., masturbating to internet porn) means that you’re going to have to work (or work harder) to meet real sexual partners. This may mean being less lazy, being more courageous, getting over being shy, etc. And in doing so, you’ll likely feel better about yourself (you accomplished something that is challenging). So, it’s not that the internet porn is making you avoid partners, it’s that you’re turning to porn because you’re avoiding partners. It’s a positive feedback loop – the cycle reinforces itself (more avoidance, more porn).
Coping with Unpleasant Thoughts, Feelings and Moods
If you use masturbation and porn as a means to cope with (i.e., self-medicate) negative moods (e.g., boredom), feelings (i.e., depression, anxiety) and thoughts (e.g., low self-esteem, fear of rejection), stopping will force you to confront these underlying problems. Alternatively, you might start doing some other rewarding activity as a new way of coping, allowing yourself to keep avoiding that underlying problem. It could be watching lots of TV, playing video games, spending hours surfing the internet, spending piles of money shopping, gambling, exercising non-stop, working a lot, etc. These could all potentially be coping mechanisms that function as escapes from unpleasant moods, feelings and thoughts. Without these coping behaviours, it would mean confronting some demons and unpleasant moods, feeling and thoughts.
A Sense of Regained Control
If you’re someone who feels like you lack control in your life, and lack power and agency, stopping your use of porn and masturbating will give you a new sense of control. This, in turn, will positively affect your perception of yourself. You’ll feel confident, strong, courageous, etc., but this is simply because you’ve overcome a strong natural urge and therefore have increased your sense of agency and accomplishment. But the behaviour you could force yourself to control could be anything – it’s not that there’s something special about porn and masturbation other than the fact that sex drive can be an extremely powerful urge, and that it is a source of shame and guilt.
If you’re looking to have a sense of control, increased agency over your life, and greater self-esteem, choose to take control of a behaviour that’s actually unhealthy – cut out pop (soda, for you Americans), eat less fast food, eat better, get more exercise, force yourself to read books, take a class, go out and meet people, etc. There are lots of challenging changes that you can make that will give you a sense of agency and personal strength. With those change will come increased self-esteem. Why waste your time trying to stop a behaviour that is generally harmless (assuming all the other points have been addressed)?
The Roles of Shame, Guilt and Anxiety
Ask yourself how you feel about masturbating to internet porn? Almost all people will report some guilt, shame, embarrassment and anxiety. This is something that has been ingrained in people – that it’s bad and that you’re a bad person because of it. There’s a reason that a large proportion of the nofappers are religious and virgins. The guilt is strong in them.
If you experience shame, guilt and anxiety about masturbation and porn, then of course you’ll feel better if you stop masturbating and using porn. It doesn’t mean that there’s anything particularly harmful about internet porn (studies show that for most people, porn has no lasting negative effects – one European study showed that it can even have positive effects). A far better solution is to just accept that for almost all people, masturbation is a normal and healthy part of their lives, and therefore not something to cause you shame. Porn use can also be part of a healthy sex life (on your own or with partners), too, although I’d highly recommend that you only use porn that is ethically produced (that’s an entirely different topic of discussion). Neither masturbation or ethically produced and consumed porn are intrinsically unhealthy, as long as they are not getting in the way of day-to-day life and relationships.
Relationship Problems
People often turn to pornography as a sexual outlet when there are problems in their intimate relationships. Problems can include all sorts of things, such as: resentment, anger, hostility, apathy, communication break-down, sexual dissatisfaction, lack of attraction, boredom, etc. Based on the claims of R&W, internet pornography causes lack of intimacy and once its use stops, intimacy will return. This simply isn’t the case. The underlying relationship problems need to be addressed, and once they do, intimacy will return and pornography, as the primary sexual outlet, will take a back seat to the real thing.
The Placebo Effect
The placebo effect is very real. The more someone invests time, resources and energy in change (i.e., treatment), the more that person wants to believe that real change has happened. Going cold turkey, when it comes to masturbation and porn, takes a lot of work and willpower – the urge for sexual release is extremely strong. People therefore want to believe that their work (i.e., being abstinent) has paid off. Another spin off is that when we feel like we’ve worked hard, we also tend to feel good about ourselves.
Crappy Sex Education
People are either not getting sex education, or are getting really bad sex education. Good sex ed should discuss pornography, and pornography use, with kids. Too many kids are learning about sex from pornography, and not in class. Pornography is fantasy – it’s not real. It’s a marketable product, subject to the whims of consumer preferences. So if you’re someone with no sex ed, but you’ve watched lots of porn, when it comes time to have sex with a real person, you’ll be in for a complete shock. Kids should learn about responsible pornography use, and how it doesn’t represent reality both in terms of how the people look and what sex is like. I assume that many of the problems reported by young porn users are directly related to lack of understanding about pornography and how it relates to the real world.
CONCLUSION
YBOP, TGPE, and nofap are fundamentally about fear mongering and sex-negativity. All the claims made are founded on R&W’s own myopic view of what sex should be (read Robinson’s website Reuniting.info if you want a taste of it). The whole nofap (i.e., reboot) thing is just like all other empirically unsupported trends in health – it’ll eventually disappear. Having said that, there’s probably no harm in doing the nofap thing other than some crankiness relating to lack of sexual outlet, and the negative thoughts and feelings that go along with beating yourself up if you fail (which is silly, in my opinion). So if you want to do the nofap challenge, knock yourselves out.
And yes, internet pornography use can be problematic for some people. When it is, it’s almost always a sign of some other underlying problem (shame, anxiety, fear of rejection, relationship problems, boredom, low self-esteem, lack of good sex education, etc.). Addressing those underlying problems should be people’s focus, not abstaining from masturbation and sex.
http://www.blizzhackers.cc/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=492319&start=2550 -
^^ thank you. Something like that was what I was looking for.0
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Whatever about porn (I watch some of it...not the hardcore stuff) but those who think watching it makes them more sexually liberated or open-minded with regards to sex are deluding themselves and people who boast about watching it come across as fairly sad cases.0
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Eve_Dublin wrote: »Whatever about porn (I watch some of it...not the hardcore stuff) but those who think watching it makes them more sexually liberated or open-minded with regards to sex are deluding themselves and people who boast about watching it come across as fairly sad cases.
I don't think people were boasting. Unless you could 'I watch some of it' as boasting.... Or 'not the hardcore stuff' maybe?0 -
RossFixxxed wrote: »I don't think people were boasting. Unless you could 'I watch some of it' as boasting.... Or 'not the hardcore stuff' maybe?
Would you call that boasting?
I'm not necessarily talking about this thread, I'm talking generally. You see it a fair bit in AH...people going on how about how much porn they watch like it's some feat. I'm talking more of those who seem to think the ability to find porn on the internet and watch it automatically makes them more sexually liberated. It doesn't.0 -
Eve_Dublin wrote: »Would you call that boasting?
I'm not necessarily talking about this thread, I'm talking generally. You see it a fair bit in AH...people going on how about how much porn they watch like it's some feat. I'm talking more of those who seem to think the ability to find porn on the internet and watch it automatically makes them more sexually liberated. It doesn't.
Ahhh I picked you up wrong. It could be construed as boasting, if you considered this thread boasting (which I don't). Liberated certainly does not equals watching a bunch of videos online. That's generally a good rule in life!0 -
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Eve_Dublin wrote: »Whatever about porn (I watch some of it...not the hardcore stuff) but those who think watching it makes them more sexually liberated or open-minded with regards to sex are deluding themselves and people who boast about watching it come across as fairly sad cases.
Where was anyone boasting? Boasting about what exactly?
Watching porn isn't anything to boast about, neither is it anything to be ashamed of. If you don't like it don't watch it.
This notion that it's the cause of myriad societal ills holds no water. It's bullsh1t. It's telling that reliogous believers are the ones arguing against it. You know what? We get it. Priests aren't allowed to have sex so by holy Jesus let no-one else be enjoying it either. Take your repressive attitude and return to whatever cave you crawled out of.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSF82AwSDiU
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