Views of Pornography?

Brain Stroking

Eramen wrote: »

Porn Effects on Society and its views on sex, health and relationships:

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2011/02/24/visualizza_new.html_1583160579.html

http://italianalmanac.org/life/libido.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/30/japan-population-decline-youth-no-sex_n_1242014.html

http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2012/04/29/why-some-japanese-young-people-have-no-interest-in-sex

First link is an articles from a website that i have never heard of.

Second link is a SHOCKING revelation that watching porn and emptying your sack can lead to a loss of libido - NOOOOOOO

Third and fourth are articles describing the same thing ie a higher rate of Japanese teens than usual with no interest in sex. No mention of porn though. They mention "virtual worlds" - that says World of Warcraft to me, not Spankwire.

Is that it? Where do us "weak" irish men come into your extrapolations?

I find it funny that we all had to go through a longwinded treatise on the ramifications of porn on men yet same blusterings are based on the huffington post and the italian daily mail :pac:

GalwayGuy2

It refers to Japanese young men who have rejected their culture's traditional definition of masculinity, and seemingly eschew relationships with the opposite sex as part.

Sounds like the Japanese version of the "gay agenda". Eh, I mean that mockingly.

Brain Stroking

Madam_X wrote: »

That's exactly my point - horror movies are no big deal today because we're used to them, and thus we are less scared by stuff that would have terrorised us 40 years ago.

I'm not talking about run-of-the-mill sex, I'm talking about the extreme acts in hardcore porn; fantasy (if er... that's your thing) and not reality, but would a lot of exposure to it from a young age normalise it? Make girls and guys think choking and aggressive anal sex and cumming on the eyes and verbal abuse is the norm and they're prudes and abnormal for not wanting to partake?
Sex, because of the grip of religion etc, has been pretty taboo until the almost recent past. Nowadays people are more open and that is a good thing.

Well me too but I don't see how that's relevant to what I'm positing?

I wasnt specifically answering only you.

Because we are now more desensitized to horror, what has happened? Can you spot an increase in any illegal or immoral activities because Hostel replaced Freddie Kreuger?

The core of your argument simply means parents need to get tech-savvy and block their kids from watching. Otherwise face the consequences. I am not going to miss out on watching Japanese girls have sex with African tribal elders just so mammy and daddy can watch Eastenders in peace with the kids on the computer in the next room.

Eramen

Brain Stroking wrote: »

First link is an articles from a website that i have never heard of.

Second link is a SHOCKING revelation that watching porn and emptying your sack can lead to a loss of libido - NOOOOOOO

Third and fourth are articles describing the same thing ie a higher rate of Japanese teens than usual with no interest in sex. No mention of porn though. They mention "virtual worlds" - that says World of Warcraft to me, not Spankwire.

Is that it? Where do us "weak" irish men come into your extrapolations?

I find it funny that we all had to go through a longwinded treatise on the ramifications of porn on men yet same blusterings are based on the huffington post and the italian daily mail :pac:

It's based on the findings of the Italian Society of Andrology and Sexual Medicine, so your issue is not really relevant. I'm beginning to suspect that you are in denial tbh. Is facts important to you? Do you change your world-view easily when new information is revealed that you didn't previously know?

I added a couple more studies. I'll post more when I can.

Corkfeen

Eramen wrote: »

It's based on the findings of the Italian Society of Andrology and Sexual Medicine, so you issue is not really relevant. I'm beginning to suspect that you are in denial tbh. Is facts important to you? Do you change your world-view easily when new information is revealed that you didn't previous know?

I added a couple more legitimate studies. I'll post more when I can.

Could you actually produce a study that we can read that discusses societal impacts rather than websites posting their opinion and selectively quoting. (My Italian is fairly shoddy so the APA or something along those lines would be preferable)It would seem obvious that excessive masturbation would result in a libido drop. Will you also admit that the Japanese situation is unrelated to your claims? Also, numerous studies should exist if it's such a massive issue.

I think we can feel some small amount of sympathy for Eramen. I have seen his kinds before (assuming he is not just a troll but even if he is we can use him as a representation of the people he is a caricature of but who actually do exist). They have gotten over their own personal addiction to something - in his case porn - and go on a holy war against it ranting and raving.

In essence you can say people like that have their heart in the right place - but they are likely doing their own cause more harm than good by sweeping around statements like how you are destroying society or throwing out some variant of "get out more" or "get a life" at all and sundry. The language spewed gives the impression that anyone who uses porn in his eyes is instantly a waster - ruining their lives - an addict - dangerous and damaging.

And again we can feel some sympathy for such a person. To them a return to porn use even at a modicum level would be to stare into the abyss and risk plunging into porn and orgasm and masturbation addiction all over again. Alcoholics are the same. When they recover the idea of even one drink is terrifying because they know how smoothly it links to the next one - and the next one - - - and so on.

The only thing I agree with in his "message" here is that addiction is a problem in our society. But not on the mass scale and society destroying levels his own addiction driven paranoia has painted in his own head. Those addicted to alcohol - porn - drugs - gambling - computer games - fast and sugary food - are all in the vast minority compared to the rest of us who use them moderately and controlled.

I indulge in porn on occasion. As do my girlfriends. Sometimes we do together. Sometimes apart. We have even produced some small amount of it ourselves for our own enjoyment and are enjoying working on an epic script for a porn film that we may or may not some day film for real.

Am I the socially inept lifeless waster and entirely unproductive that Eramen wants to paint? Anything but. I have yet to meet a single person as productive as I am these days - though I apologize for blowing my own trumpet on that one - I am simply the polar opposite of the image that so horrifies Eramens mind.

Does the minority issue however mean people like Eramen should shut up and cop on as there is no real problem? Of course not. Addiction IS a real problem in Ireland and around the world and we need to raise awareness of it and help people deal with it and help people recognize the signs of it in others around them before it is too late. It is one of those great issues that society has much work to do to raise consciousness and awareness.

As at least one other poster on the thread has so lucidly pointed out however the worst - and alas most common - error we make in our society is to blame the thing people are addicted TO rather than addiction itself. If someone gets addicted to porn - to hell with porn and bring out the ban hammer. If people get addicted to alcohol and turn to violence on the streets or homelessness or beating their wife - to hell with alcohol and the current licensing hours and so forth.

Blaming the thing addicted to is not the correct target. Addiction tends to be a symptom of other underlying issues in a persons life and railing against the target of individual addictions - let alone with the pointless bombastic and sweeping language employed by Eramen - will help no one.

Again I think his heart (again assuming it is not a troll but people like him if not him still hold true) is in the right place but his way of going about it is likely to push people away from his cause rather than towards it. Alas my experience with such people tells me it will be years rather than days before his passionate fatwa cools enough for him to suspect this himself - let alone recognize it.

He wants people to take control of their own lives. Sure. Some of us have. And in doing so we have decided porn at some level is to be part of that life. Taking control of our lives does not mean - as much as he clearly wants it to mean - making the same choices as him and giving up the same things as him. Taking control of ones life means living it how you want. Not how someone on a holy war against porn on a random internet forum wants you to live it. Nor are our standards of what constitutes being "masculine" the same as his. Nor should they be. Ever.

awec

This is the internet. If you look hard enough you'll find some study somewhere that proposes some ridiculous theory.

It's important that people aren't suckered into believing they are factual, and then regurgitating them as fact on an internet forum whilst trying to come across as superior.

philologos

Right, let me get a chance to respond to some of this.

1ZRed wrote: »

Not even Jesus could've predicted that response!!

We'll be seeing you for good if that's the case

I'm perfectly sure that anyone could have predicted that I work a 9 - 6 job and that I need to work to live. My life doesn't revolve around responding to your posts irrespective of how much I feel it is good to make a good contribution to the discussion at hand.

I'll respond to as much as I can, and I want to get into discussing this. I will also be grouping responses together if the same topic is discussed:

1. Is pornography dehumanising?

1ZRed wrote: »

Well if you see all it is, and all who is in it, as degraded and dehumanised then that is your view on it and is actually how you truly see it, which is wrong.

Well no. Think about it this way. If I isolate appearance from the sum total of the person, I am dehumanising someone insofar as I am stripping away who they are (no pun intended) for my own sexual gratification. Pornography encourages viewing other people for less than who they really are.

As someone who believes that humanity deserves far better than this, I think that sexuality should fall into the context of loving and meaningful relationships which are about far more than sex even if sex is a key component.

I think it is wrong that pornography bastardises this notion, and I think it is wrong that pornography focuses to the human person only in a superficial manner. We can do so so much better as people.

2. Does pornography promote an unnatural view of sexuality?

1ZRed wrote: »

Unnatural view of sexuality? Sorry would you rather we all participated in a bit of good auld fashioned catholic guilt?

Before I look into this. I'm going to point this out again. I'm not a Roman Catholic. Yes, I am a Christian, and I do believe in the Bible as God's inspired and infallible word and I believe that it has significant and real authority in my life. Now that I've pointed this out. There's something important to mention. If I am to look at this subject rationally one should consider the arguments on their merit alone rather than committing the genetic fallacy of dismissing the arguments purely on their origins. I don't deny that these arguments come from a Judeo-Christian position, nor do I deny that I submit to Jesus as Lord, but these arguments should be considered on their rational merit rather than being fobbed off because I'm a Christian.

Guilt has a purpose by the by. There is a reason why guilt exists, and it serves a function. Guilt generally exists as a part of a human conscience to rebuke us when we have done something which is evidently evil rather than what is good. Yes, it can be warped, and yes it can be abused, however to deny that guilt does not have a fruitful purpose in the individual is patently daft. This crazy notion that one should avoid anything to do with a healthy conscience is not true.

Now, before we start, I should point out that I don't advocate returning to a point of Victorian prudishness. I think that things genuinely were overly oppressive in the past. However, for every little bit that people can argue that things were oppressive in the past, things have gone too far in the other direction. Sexuality is shoved in peoples faces continually in the Western world today. Pornography is just one manifestation of this. Personally, I think that in the context of a marriage sexuality is a brilliant thing, but distorted and abstracted from that context it can be destructive particularly in respect to pornography.

Think of it this way. If we enjoyed food and we watched video upon video of a basted ham salivating, wouldn't you regard this as dysfunctional? Abstracted so far from the original concept of eating that it was completely bizarre and unnatural? I'd argue the same is true in terms of sex and pornography. Why not seek out a loving and a meaningful relationship and satisfy your sexual desires through that?

3. Can pornography create unrealistic expectations of sexuality?

1ZRed wrote: »

That is true that it can create unrealistic expectations for sex but it can also teach a lot and let's you figure things out and end up being fairly educational from that point of view. I know I learned a fuck of a lot from porn growing up, so your one size fits all idea that all porn promotes an unnatural idea of sexuality is very false and is an outdated theory.

Well, it's quite commonly accepted that pornography can desensitise people and that people can very readily have a distorted point of view of what typical sexual expression is actually like. I'd rather not have completely atypical experiences of sexuality impact my perspective or view on the subject.

4. Does watching pornography constitute adultery?

1ZRed wrote: »

Well I don't know about you but I don't regard having a sly pull in front of a computer screen as anywhere near having sex, let alone cheating.

And if you feel having sexual desires for someone other than your partner is on par with adultery, then what if a man or woman where to see an attractive person in the street and then for them to have a sexual fantasy about them, is that still cheating? Or does it strictly have to be porn?

First things first. Finding someone else attractive is not on par with adultery. Lusting after another woman than your wife / partner, and lusting after another man than your wife / partner is. It's not simply finding them sexually attractive, or even just having sexual desires. Masturbation is a sexual act, and you are doing this by lusting after another person than your wife or husband.

The only difference is that your member isn't actually physically in the act of penetrating someone / being penetrated by someone else. For all intents and purposes it is pretty much exactly the same.

Pornography has caused significant strain on many marriages, and to treat this in a fickle manner is absurd I think. I know that if this was a problem in a relationship I was involved in I'd be pretty upset about it.

1ZRed wrote: »

Too much of anything is a bad thing! Everything in moderation is key.

Plus I made the point that it's not the pornography which is at fault, it's the user who abuses it. Use it as it is meant as a way to unwind or entertain yourself but don't become reliant or dependent on it and you'll be fine. Again, pornography isn't the sole issue there, it's the user.

You're right too much of anything is a bad thing. On the same note being completely obsessed about sexuality is a bad thing in much the way that salivating over watching videos of roasted ham is a dysfunctional habit. Sexual expression is a great thing in the right amounts and in the right context. Abstracting that into something else is where the problem lies I feel.

5. Is pornography sexist?

1ZRed wrote: »

What if you don't view pornography with any women at all in it? What if women watch porn, does that produce a sexist attitude toward men?

Of course not, that is such an archaic argument against porn that it's all so sexist towards women. So you'd see no issues with me watching gay porn then seeing as though it isn't sexist towards women?

You're really just mirroring your own prejudices against porn here and claiming to be on the right and non-judgmental side of things. Your view of this is actually so unrealistic and flawed I don't know where to start.

Pornography without women in it is about as bad. It is still sexual objectification. The reality is that the vast majority of pornography is sought out by heterosexuals because heterosexuals form a clear majority of the population. I would say that dehumanising people for your own sexual gratification is still a destructive trend rather than a constructive one.

Here's something along the lines of what I meant. This is from an article in The Independent which deals with sexism in society:

Keen not to miss out on the action, Zoo Australia muscled in with a picture on its Facebook page showing a model split in two at the waist, with readers asked whether they preferred the top or bottom half. Reasons given by men in the comments for choosing the lower half included “cause two holes are better than one”, and “cause it doesn’t have the ability to have its own ****ing opinion”. Others specified the top half because “it can still make me a sandwich”, whilst one commenter suggested that if one hole wasn’t enough, you could just make another one.

[...]

And no, the Zoo Australia magazine ‘split her into pieces to dehumanize her even further as you objectify her’ and Virgin’s ‘wouldn’t it be completely hilarious if he incapacitated his wife so he could do whatever he wants with her’ gags aren’t ‘lighthearted’ or ‘harmless’ either. Think dehumanizing women in the public sphere, portraying them as sex objects and victims of men and simply vessels to be ****ed or abused or turned into a great big joke is completely harmless? Tell it to the office worker whose boss referred to her by asking a colleague “if big tits has come in yet”. Tell it to the woman who was asked by her boss in front of 30 colleagues “If I ‘wax my crack’”. Tell it to the girl of 10 who was walking home from school when “two older boys said ‘show us your tits’”. Tell it to the child of 13 who didn’t even understand when two men in a white van asked her if she had “a tight pussy”. Tell it to the woman who reported being groped by strangers “at least once a week and often much more, regardless of what I wear, where I am, how I behave.” Tell it to the woman who declined to talk to a group of men and was pursued down the street by them, shouting “rape!” Tell it to schoolgirl who was “beaten by her boyfriend” and whose “friends asked her if she was going to stay with him until after the prom so she’d have a date”.

I agree entirely. It isn't harmless. I think that all humanity should seek to regard others with dignity irrespective of how attractive people look.

1ZRed wrote: »

1. There is no sexual exploitation going on. Those actors are there of their own choosing and accord. Believe it or not, some people like the idea of being in the pornographic industry. There is nothing wrong with that or their choice.

2. "What if it was my daughter"? Well your daughter has a will of her own and is there of her own choosing. If you want the perception of porn to change you're going about it the wrong way and making it seem shameful and perverted, even though it is a commonly used by many people. So if the large majority of people to use porn, many seeing it as normal, natural to them and without issue, then why have these judgemental attitudes towards those who produce the very thing you enjoy and get pleasure from? It's hypocritical.

1. I disagree very strongly on this point. There is sexual exploitation of millions in the porn industry. People are trafficked for it. It is not enough to be simply assured that people consent to this. By being complicit with it, you are supporting an industry which at least in part exploits trafficked women. How do you know that the women or men that you are watching haven't been trafficked in the sex trade. It is a modern form of slavery, and I'm surprised that you're so blasé about the subject.

2. My point was that if I and many others wouldn't be pleased at the thought of our daughter being in the porn industry why on earth should we be praising someone else's daughter being involved, let alone getting our jollies off it?

Do you not appreciate that there are rather big ethical issues involved here, or perhaps you don't care?

1ZRed wrote: »

Yeah, you think that. You are also a very religious person, and openly so, hardly an unbiased view on the matter, eh?

Also, the irony of pornography enslaving! Because I've NEVER heard that said of religion! :pac:

Pornography is enslaving. Literally to many of the people involved in it through human trafficking, and to many of those who are involved in watching it through sex-addiction. The fact that you take such a blasé approach in respect to it is hugely disheartening if not tragic.

I don't know why you seem to want to bring up my Christian faith time and time again as if it is a negative in my life because it is nothing of the sort. My Christian faith liberates me from being conformed to things like this in the world. I'm greatly thankful that I am able to see the world differently as a result of God caring so much that He sent His only Son Jesus to rescue me from sin. He can do the same for anyone, including you.

I don't claim to be unbiased at all. I clearly am posting from a Christian perspective on this issue. I'm no less biased than you are.

orestes

Eramen wrote: »

Legitimate question: How many of you guys watch porn regularly? (as if I will receive honest answers)

Whenever I feel like it. How about you?

Eramen wrote: »

Porn Effects on Society and its views on sex, health and relationships:



Regular Porn use leaves Italian men with sexual dysfunction and health issues:

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2011/02/24/visualizza_new.html_1583160579.html

http://italianalmanac.org/life/libido.htm

German study finds increased porn use linked with memory impairments:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23167900

Hang on, Italian and German studies? What happened to all that stuff about Ireland and Irish culture, Irish men and fraternity and Irish-Irishness you were talking about earlier?

Eramen wrote: »

Porn addiction and human behavior
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201106/ominous-news-porn-users-internet-addiction-atrophies-brains

From that study, in the section titled Behavioural Addictions:

So far, here's the research scorecard. (Dates indicate when brain-scan research turned up evidence of the last of the three key addiction-related brain changes.)

Pathological gambling - studied for 10 years, and added to the upcoming DSM-5 as an addiction (2010)
Food addiction - (2010)
Internet video-gaming addiction - (2011)
Internet porn addiction - still not studied via brain scans

The emphisis on porn addiction not being studied isn't even added for the relevence of this debate, it's ephisised in the study itself to show there is no actual data on the subject, the whole thing is conjecture.

philologos

token101 wrote: »

Doesn't the Catholic Church prohibit women from entering as priests? Wouldn't you say that's viewing someone as "sexual objects rather than in their fullness as human beings"?

And Catholic priests? Celibacy is healthy and has never lead to any unhealthy abuse has it?

I'm an evangelical Christian, and the Bible doesn't prohibit clergy from marrying. Indeed, considering that in Titus and in 1 Timothy it is explicitly listed that a pastor should only have one wife, and that in 1 Corinthians it is mentioned that Peter had a wife it seems quite intuitive that clergy should be able to marry.

token101 wrote: »

That's just ****ing absurd really. Even if you're in a relationship you still find other people sexually attractive, that's human instinct. You haven't actually cheated, you've just thought about having sex with someone else. If I see someone I dislike and think about punching them in the face that isn't on a par with assault.

Finding people sexually attractive != Lusting after someone and masturbating at the thought of them. That's a sexual act. The only difference as I mentioned already is that the physical act isn't happening to another person, but it is happening at the thought of another person.

token101 wrote: »

Same as gambling, alcohol, chocolate, fast food or religion. Down to the individual isn't it really? The guys who go and blow up buildings in the name of Allah do far more damage than the guy who can't have sex with his wife because he's watched too much porn.

I think much religion is destructive. I don't know where people got the nutty idea that I'm defending all religion. No, I believe in Jesus, that's who I live for.

token101 wrote: »

Religion has caused far more problems and death in society than pornography ever has or ever will. Again, allegations of sexism from anyone in organised religion is a bit like the KKK railing against racism, hypocrisy beyond belief.

See above. I don't know where you got the nutty idea that I defend all religions. I think a lot are destructive actually, much as I think that quite a lot of atheist philosophy is destructive.

token101 wrote: »

And the church doesn't profit from the believers at all does it? The church preaches vows of poverty from ornate palaces. Noone in pornography is brainwashed into believing that what they are doing is a labour of love, unlike the believers who brainwashed into believing that giving the church money will offer them favour with the invisible man. At least porn is honest! And I haven't heard of any legit porn companies offering safe havens to paedophiles and enabling them, and that's something that you would hear about!

Actually, I see a breakdown of how my church uses its money. Mainly it is for furthering the Gospel in London and bringing people to know Him. My pastors don't line their pockets they are earning an average salary. If I thought for any moment that there was financial abuse going on I'd vote with my feet and leave. Essentially I know the breakdown of how every pound is spent there.

My church doesn't offer safe havens to paedophiles either. If it did, I'd be outta there.

token101 wrote: »

Pornography might not be a desirable career choice in society but isn't intrinsically evil like organised religion is. I feel very strongly about organised religion, feel free to pick me up on anything there.

Many people are forced into it. Moreover many people are enslaved to a human philosophy which has destroyed marriages and families, and has consumed peoples lives through addiction. I'm happier free from it.

philologos

thebigbiffo wrote: »

1: I love my wife, I have sex with her. At some point, she's going to be a sexual object for me, men view women as a route to getting their hole to some extent. Nothing to do with porn. Deal with it.

It's great that you have a good and full relationship with your wife. I don't object to this. I don't believe that you are dehumanising your wife because sex is merely a component of a fuller relationship. You're not solely looking to a woman to bring you sexual gratification. I presume that your wife brings much more joy to your life than that.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

2: Do I base my view of reality on Batman movies, Superman, The Nightmare on Elm street series. Did I run out after seeing Love Hate and start dealing drugs? Cop on. You watch fiction, you suspend disbelief.

No. However movies and other things do affect how we see the world, and they do often have a deeper philosophy or moral to be taken away from them. In much the same way it is naiive to think that watching a lot of videos of people having sex in a particular way won't affect sexual expression, or adversely what we expect from sexual expression.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

3: You do realize humans masturbate, married or not right? You do understand we've imaginations. To that regard, I've cheated on my wife with everyone from the office receptionist to Jessica Alba. Don't tell the wife, yeah? I dont think she'd like to think it wasn't just pornstars on was cheating on her with!

By the by, it's important to clarify, that I don't object to masturbation per sé. It is what motivates it if you will. I think that looking to another woman other than your wife for sexual gratification can be regarded as adultery.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

4: I know people addicted to drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, caffeine, jelly tots (I'm not joking), Chinese food, prescription drugs...the list is endless, and in varying degrees of severity. If you're addicted to keeping your garden perfect, do we need a support group? No, would be the answer there.

Addiction to anything is unhelpful. If something is consuming your life in such a way that it is adversely affecting the way you function then it is only right to seek help.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

5: Yeah, again connected to my second point (you do like a good repetitive moan dont ya?) - I thin you need to understand that men and women like sex, and our attitudes have been formed by this since time began. Build a bridge...

Repetitive or unrepetitive, this is worth discussing properly.

I don't think there is anything wrong with men or women liking sex. Heck, it is a great thing in the right context. It is when we abstract this concept out of this context and obsess over it like we've done in the West that it becomes destructive.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Lastly: "They're not doing what I feel comfortable with so therefore it's bad. I cannot back up my opinion so I will just assume these people are being exploited". Common enough position.

That's not my position. People are literally enslaved to this through the human trafficking industry and by other means. Peoples marriages have literally been destroyed as a result of pornography, and people quite literally have huge issues in respect to this. To treat this in a hard and uncaring manner is really tragic to be honest with you.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Can I ask you a question? When did you get the internet in your convent?

I work a secular job, I live in a normal house with normal housemates, I'm a normal person like anyone else, the only difference is that I just believe in Jesus Christ.

You can ask some of the people on the London forum who have met me over a drink before

Eramen

Deleted User wrote: »

...........

While I agree with the majority of your post I want to re-clarify some things about myself, which is the only thing I disagree with in your post

I was never a porn addict.. people have assumed it and then taken it as fact. Maybe that makes it easier for them to put my views in context for themselves and their world-view but it is the wrong context. (Someone who No Fap's OMG! )

I've stated I watched porn on occasion, I took up the the No Fap 90 days challenge as an experiment, in terms of a willpower exercise. I was also very curious of the claims of the whole movement. I can say for me at least it was definitely worth it and was relatively easy. I completed it on my first attempt and have essentially never looked back in regards to porn.

I found the majority of supposed outcomes of the lifestyle stood the test in my case. I still to this day am more productive, better concentration & stability, bolstered my can do attitude and prompted actions relating to taking the bull by he horns.

It was a fantastic thing to do, and I encourage any and all to attempt it and document their experience. In retrospect I certainly do have a disdain for porn, only at the end when it's all stopped do you understand it's value and purpose, which is wholly nil. Look at what people in the industry and ex pornstars are saying.

I concentrate my efforts on real people now, not fantasies - even if those fantasies were once only occasional. It is the case that my fantasies are now becoming real. I just find this outlook to be better for myself. Lastly it's because the changes were so positive, even dramatic to an extent, that I am so vocal about this topic.

www.reddit.com/r/NoFap

orestes

Eramen wrote: »

I've stated I watched porn on occasion, I took up the the No Fap 90 days challenge as an experiment, in terms of a willpower exercise. I was also very curious of the claims of the whole movement. I can say for me at least it was definitely worth it and was relatively easy. I completed it on my first attempt have essentially never looked back in regards to porn.

I found the majority of supposed outcomes stood the test in my case. I still to this day am more productive, better concentration & stability, bolstered my can do attitude and prompted actions relating to taking the bull by he horns.

It was a fantastic thing to do, and I encourage any and all to attempt it and document their experience. In retrospect I certainly do have a disdain for porn, only at the end when it's all stopped do you understand it's value and purpose, which is wholly negative. (As people inside the industry and ex pornstar can attest.)

I concentrate my efforts on real people now, not fantasies. I just find this to be better for myself.

You know, you could have saved everyone a whole lot of trouble if you had just said this (especially the bit in bold) at the start instead of all the other shoite. It works for you, fine, we're happy for you, as many have said in this thread already.

Just don't go telling everyone else it's the only way to live or they are morally corrupt degenerates who are against the laws of science and are going to burn in hell or lead to the downfall of human civilization or the return of the vengeful lizard overlords or something or you just end up getting told to gtfo.

Eramen

orestes wrote: »

You know, you could have saved everyone a whole lot of trouble if you had just said this (especially the bit in bold) at the start instead of all the other shoite. It works for you, fine, we're happy for you, as many have said in this thread already.

Just don't go telling everyone else it's the only way to live or they are morally corrupt degenerates who are against the laws of science and are going to burn in hell or lead to the downfall of human civilization or the return of the vengeful lizard overlords or something or you just end up getting told to gtfo.

Fair enough Irishman, but whether I came up with the best science could tell us, or illuminating philosophic ideas, it seems everyone had their minds set no matter what may have been said, except a noble few.

Porn has no effect on society, or on popular-culture, nor on the health of the addict... If you want to believe this, then believe it.

Madam_X

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Tbf, that may not be a bad thing. As long as both parties are happy with it (and there isn't admittedly anything psychologically odd going on), it may be good to loosen people up about sexuality.

Not e.g. anal ****ing so hard that rectal damage is caused though.

Brain Stroking wrote: »

The core of your argument simply means parents need to get tech-savvy and block their kids from watching. Otherwise face the consequences. I am not going to miss out on watching Japanese girls have sex with African tribal elders just so mammy and daddy can watch Eastenders in peace with the kids on the computer in the next room.

Well fair point, but what about 18-year-olds? Despite the denial, that age group would do anything to be cool. I'm not saying ban hardcore porn (much as I despise the horrible stuff) but there's nothing wrong with talking about any concerns one might have.


Btw, I dont think it's a good idea to give up fapping at all at all! :pac:

orestes

Eramen wrote: »

Fair enough Irishman, but whether I came up with the best science could tell us, or inspirational philosophic ideas, it seems everyone had their minds set no matter what may have been said, except a noble few.

Dude, I have no problem with your point of view or how you live your life, and I'm always open to discussion. I'm actually celibate myself (although I do fap), but that's my choice. How others live their life is up to them. It's not your point of view that irked people, it's the way you put it across, as myself and others have said.

Eramen wrote: »

Porn has no effect on society, or on popular-culture, nor on the health on the addict... If you want to believe this, then believe it.

Porn has had an effect on society, I agree, but why does an effect necessarily have to be a bad thing? I believe sexual liberation and freedom of sexuality to be good things myself. Regarding it's effect on addicts, I'll say again that I think you are completely misunderstanding the nature of addiction.

Aside note, right now I'm watching the 2010 christmas special of Misfits on channel 4 and there's a scene where a teenage guy dressed as santa clause has sex with a pregnant girl.

1ZRed

Phililogos wrote:

Pornography is enslaving. Literally to many of the people involved in it through human trafficking, and to many of those who are involved in watching it through sex-addiction. The fact that you take such a blasé approach in respect to it is hugely disheartening if not tragic.

The fact that you resort to such fear mongering and exaggeration of that severity on the subject, to suit yourself, is hugely disheartening to me. Porn has very little baring on human trafficking, if you knew anything about it you'd know people who are trafficked are very much primarily sold for sex and prostitution, not porn movies. So when referring to such examples as though they are widespread and common place, without any evidence to say otherwise, would be akin to me branding the church a house packed full of child molesters, just to suit my argument and give it some perceived sense of power even though that statement wouldn't be fully true.

I notice you still remain beside that comment that porn is enslaving while ignoring that religion is the most widely recognised form of genuinely enslaving people in every sense of the word.

Phililogos wrote:

I don't know why you seem to want to bring up my Christian faith time and time again as if it is a negative in my life because it is nothing of the sort. My Christian faith liberates me from being conformed to things like this in the world. I'm greatly thankful that I am able to see the world differently as a result of God caring so much that He sent His only Son Jesus to rescue me from sin. He can do the same for anyone, including you.

I don't claim to be unbiased at all. I clearly am posting from a Christian perspective on this issue. I'm no less biased than you are.

No it doesn't, you'd like to think you're liberated and seeing the world in some special way but all you're doing is being told what is good and bad and to follow those views accordingly and unquestionably without thinking for yourself. Basically just conforming to whatever you are told, much to your disagreement that you don't actually conform. Again, it's a biased approach on the subject, therefore I don't take arguments with fanatically religious people very seriously because they seem deaf to logic when it contradicts their own beliefs.

I lack a religion and I don't believe in anything so I just tackled everything without being weighted down with that sort of pre-imposed rule set on me. My view is the least biased there could be because nobody influenced my views, I came up with them on my own because I have no religion telling me what is good and bad, in their view, so you're incredibly wrong to think I'm no less biased than you are.

I'm actually thankful I don't see the world through the eyes of someone of your faith anymore, it's oppressive. When I was younger, and religious, I was made to feel wrong and sinful -by myself, never mind others, because I didn't conform to what it was to be "right" in that faith. That was a very unhappy time for me and I think it is wrong I ever had to feel that way for something I couldn't help just because someone with a 2000 year old book told me so and influenced my society to think that way. I don't think you see how destructive and influential that book is and how it can do very bad things when exploited, which more than likely it always is.
Porn is what it is, there is no great malice or "evil" behind it, it is just sex targeted to those who want and seek it. simple as. There's no comparison.

If you're seeking some moral high ground on this subject, I'd suggest not relying on the bible for it. I've never seen so many accounts of hypocrisy and needless, meaningless suffering anywhere else.

So if porn is the worst thing to happen to our society, I'd say we'd be fairly lucky.

Madam_X

It should be said having concerns regarding hardcore porn and celebrating liberation of sexuality/throwing off the shackles of sexual repression are not mutually exclusive.

Brain Stroking

Madam_X wrote: »

It should be said having concerns regarding hardcore porn and celebrating liberation of sexuality/throwing off the shackles of sexual repression are not mutually exclusive.

True. I cannot look at a horse after some of the beastiality i've seen yet I'm all for shorter school skirts

GalwayGuy2

It should be said having concerns regarding hardcore porn and celebrating liberation of sexuality/throwing off the shackles of sexual repression are not mutually exclusive.

Not e.g. anal ****ing so hard that rectal damage is caused though.

Yeah, when I mentioned my random thought I was not talking about what you mentioned there. I mean, not even within a million miles.

Brain Stroking

Eramen wrote: »

Sex is a biological necessity, an imperative for natural productivity and continuance. Porn is counter to this biology

At the risk of reiteration: in your opinion the above is true. Does not necessarily make you correct.

Now, again: where is the evidence for the disintegration of the Irish man?

Brain Stroking

Madam_X wrote: »

Well fair point, but what about 18-year-olds? Despite the denial, that age group would do anything to be cool. I'm not saying ban hardcore porn (much as I despise the horrible stuff) but there's nothing wrong with talking about any concerns one might have.


Btw, I dont think it's a good idea to give up fapping at all at all! :pac:

I think you underestimate people. 18 year olds arent suddenly going to want to eat each others poop because they saw "2 girls and one cup".

Any depravity to be found in society is simply due to the fact that society is depraved. Always has been. We are living in arguably the most civilised time in human history. Drink it up

Madam_X

Ok I'm talking about extreme but not as extreme as poop-eating!

philologos

It's a real shame that you've completely ignored the rest of my post in order to rant about my faith. You're not even fully engaging with the arguments I've given you.

1ZRed wrote: »

The fact that you resort to such fear mongering and exaggeration of that severity on the subject, to suit yourself, is hugely disheartening to me. Porn has very little baring on human trafficking, if you knew anything about it you'd know people who are trafficked are very much primarily sold for sex and prostitution, not porn movies. So when referring to such examples as though they are widespread and common place, without any evidence to say otherwise, would be akin to me branding the church a house packed full of child molesters, just to suit my argument and give it some perceived sense of power even though that statement wouldn't be fully true.

I notice you still remain beside that comment that porn is enslaving while ignoring that religion is the most widely recognised form of genuinely enslaving people in every sense of the word.

I'm sorry, but it isn't fearmongering to suggest that many people are trafficked both for the pornography industry in addition to prostitution. It is an entirely valid question to ask how do you know if some people affected by this don't feature in what you are watching? Moreover why would you support an industry that allows this to happen. The point is that it is a problem in the porn industry and ignoring it won't make it go away.

As I've also mentioned to others pornography has broken marriages and divided families before. It also causes problems in terms of how people see other people, and how other people approach sexuality as I've mentioned previously and which you ignored. I hope you'll come back to the rest of my post.

As for "branding the church full of child molesters" do that if you want. It will be up for Roman Catholics to respond to your objection. By the by, human trafficking is a significant problem in the porn industry in a similar way that child abuse is a significant problem in the Roman Catholic Church. As I mentioned to another poster, I think I'd be outta there if I found problems like that manifest in my own. I'd need to prayerfully find a new place to worship.

It isn't just to suit my argument. It's true.

1ZRed wrote: »

No it doesn't, you'd like to think you're liberated and seeing the world in some special way but all you're doing is being told what is good and bad and to follow those views accordingly and unquestionably without thinking for yourself. Basically just conforming to whatever you are told, much to your disagreement that you don't actually conform. Again, it's a biased approach on the subject, therefore I don't take arguments with fanatically religious people very seriously because they seem deaf to logic when it contradicts their own beliefs.

Sorry, I don't buy this. Yesterday you complained about me saying that because I had to wait to get back from work to respond to you. I think you should have responded to my post in full. I've treated you and your position with the utmost respect in this thread, and you've continued just to throw out nonsense about my Christian faith.

My faith has liberated me from struggling with this particular issue amongst others and it has helped me see a bigger picture about what this is about. Moreover, this isn't about me being superior. I've fallen into sin many times. What I am saying is that there is someone greater than you and I who can change things, who can literally transform us to turn away from sin and to seek out what is truly good.

I think it is bizarre of you to accuse me to being deaf of logic when you're committing a logical fallacy. That is the genetic fallacy:

The genetic fallacy, also known as fallacy of origins, fallacy of virtue,is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.

That's what you're doing. You're fobbing off my argument on the basis that I am a Christian and come from a Christian perspective. The reality is that you should be exposing the argument itself to rational scrutiny. Something which you've refused to do and now you're engaging in an ad-hominem essentially. There's no rational justification for concluding that pornography has contributed anything positive to society, but plenty negative.

I'm "conforming to whatever I'm told". Interesting, do you know that I actually became a Christian by reading the Bible for myself without anyone telling me anything?

I think you're deaf to logic to be honest with you. That's why you insist on attacking my beliefs rather than dealing with what I've presented you.

1ZRed wrote: »

I lack a religion and I don't believe in anything so I just tackled everything without being weighted down with that sort of pre-imposed rule set on me. My view is the least biased there could be because nobody influenced my views, I came up with them on my own because I have no religion telling me what is good and bad, in their view, so you're incredibly wrong to think I'm no less biased than you are.

Nonsense. Your view is as biased as mine. Atheism doesn't mean no bias in this respect. No matter how you think you are, you've got a pro-porn bias on this thread. You've completely ignored my actual arguments as well.

1ZRed wrote: »

I'm actually thankful I don't see the world through the eyes of someone of your faith anymore, it's oppressive. When I was younger, and religious, I was made to feel wrong and sinful -by myself, never mind others, because I didn't conform to what it was to be "right" in that faith. That was a very unhappy time for me and I think it is wrong I ever had to feel that way for something I couldn't help just because someone with a 2000 year old book told me so and influenced my society to think that way. I don't think you see how destructive and influential that book is and how it can do very bad things when exploited, which more than likely it always is.
Porn is what it is, there is no great malice or "evil" behind it, it is just sex targeted to those who want and seek it. simple as. There's no comparison.

I see the world through Jesus. That's all. Very simple. He tackled a number of injustices when he was here on earth. Lusting after another in your heart from His perspective was adultery, which is what I've argued sofar without explicitly pointing to Matthew 5:28.

I've subjected the Scriptures to rational scrutiny, and I've concluded that I can trust them. Therefore I do.

1ZRed wrote: »

If you're seeking some moral high ground on this subject, I'd suggest not relying on the bible for it. I've never seen so many accounts of hypocrisy and needless, meaningless suffering anywhere else.

So if porn is the worst thing to happen to our society, I'd say we'd be fairly lucky.

It's not moral high ground. I'm no better than you are. I'm a sinner and I've fallen short of God's standard (Romans 3:23). The good news is that Jesus died for me, and as a result I'm forgiven. Everyone can be just some are stubborn towards it.

Before accusing the Bible about hypocrisy you might want to look to your own which I've addressed in this post. You moan about when I need to wait a few hours before responding to you, and then you refuse to deal with my post properly and then claim that you don't deal with "fanatically religious people very seriously". Look to yourself first.

By the by, if you respond to this without giving a proper response to my previous post I won't respond to that until you do. I gave a lot of time to responding to you and you ignored most of it.

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

Is pornography dehumanising? Pornography encourages viewing other people for less than who they really are.

Only if you invent a definition of "human" to which pornography is contradictory. I see nothing dehumanizing about a very human act. In fact the single and sole thing I see dehumanizing and degrading these people is YOUR claims that their job is dehumanizing and degrading.

Who are you to judge the employment choices of others in such a fashion? What high horse did you get for Christmas that allows you to look down on the roles of others in this way? For shame.

I no more see people in porn for less than they are than I see Footballers on Television or the employee behind the counter in McDonalds for less than they are. It is YOU and you alone judging these people and claiming they are less than human.

philologos wrote: »

Does pornography promote an unnatural view of sexuality?

There is no "natural" view of sexuality. Each persons view of it is their own and your desperate need to get everyone to share yours is transparent. Sexuality in humans is a personal expression and so is as individual as the person engaged in it and with everything from sex toys to contraception in the market it has ceased being "natural" a long time ago.

philologos wrote: »

Can pornography create unrealistic expectations of sexuality?

There is a massive world of difference between "can?" and "does?". Or course it _can_ do so but the question is _does it_ and if so does it do so in any great quantities or is it just a tiny minority of cases. Watching James Bond Movies _can_ give people an unrealistic expectation of sexuality too.

These are the questions you need to address and I see nothing in your posts addressing then. You just declare your position as "commonly accepted" and run away. That an argument does not make.

It is you dehumanizing people again here in failing to realize that most of us have the ability to suspend our disbelief when watching what is essentially fiction and we do not build our real world expectations upon it. Anyone who does has problems of a whole different sort to pornography.

Then again your inability to tell fiction from reality as evidenced by your bible bashing does indeed suggest a causal reason as to why you might doubt this ability in others too.

philologos wrote: »

Does watching pornography constitute adultery?

It can do. It entirely depends on the relationship in question and the boundaries the people in that relationship have. If pornography is a deal breaker for you in your relationships then there is _nothing wrong with that whatsoever_. Make that clear to your partner and go from there.

This consistent need of yours however to have everyone follow the same standards and requirements you yourself have is abhorrent however. There are people in relationships who are perfectly ok with pornography and have their own standards on what constitutes infidelity in their own relationships.

What constitutes infidelity and adultery and dishonesty in a relationship is simply anything that goes against the agreed boundaries OF that relationship. These boundaries vary and your idea that they are fixed across all relationships is just another fantasy in the arsenal of fantasies you deploy on these fora.

You're right too much of anything is a bad thing. On the same note being completely obsessed about sexuality is a bad thing in much the way that salivating over watching videos of roasted ham is a dysfunctional habit. Sexual expression is a great thing in the right amounts and in the right context. Abstracting that into something else is where the problem lies I feel.

philologos wrote: »

Is pornography sexist?

No but you asking if it is, is. Both men and women partake in it in front of the camera, behind the camera, behind the scenes, and before the screen.

Nor is it sexist because the clients are predominantly heterosexual males. What on earth has that got to do with anything? The client base of most sports (football and boxing for example) is predominantly heterosexual males too. Do you think sport is sexist too? Or do you just throw insults out against things you do not like while ignoring the fact the same arguments apply to the things you do like or have no issue with?

nozzferrahhtoo

philologos wrote: »

It's a real shame that you've completely ignored the rest of my post in order to rant about my faith.

Says the person who does not just ignore MOST of peoples posts but ALL of their posts?

Eramen

Eramen wrote: »

I was never a porn addict..

If you say so. I do not know you so I can not declare either way. However I can say the signs I am seeing - the way you are talking and acting - and much more all match perfectly that of people I have worked with who are getting over a number of addictions - including porn and alcohol.

The choosing of one vice out of the plethora available to our society and going on a holy war against it and blaming it specifically for many of the things that are actually the blame of addiction itself is a classic sign. As is the implicit or explicit inference that anyone who engages in said vice even to a small degree has problems much larger than their use in reality suggests.

I could go on with such examples but it is enough to repeat that I do not know you or your history but I do know the patterns and many of them match.

It however is not the most important part - by far - of the points I made in my post.

Eramen wrote: »

I took up the the No Fap 90 days challenge as an experiment, in terms of a willpower exercise.

Indeed and some of your posts have directly and indirectly suggested it will be a willpower excercise for others too. Your painting of it as something that required a powerful excercise of will is another of the many examples of why I think you match the patterns of an addict.

For many of us - contrary to the impression your posts are imbued with - not masturbating (with or without porn) is not an excercise of will but as easy and simple a choice to make as the average person deciding whether or not to have a glass of wine with dinner tonight.

It simply is not the war of will you paint it as and that you think it is calls into question your claim not to be an addict.

Eramen wrote: »

I still to this day am more productive, better concentration & stability, bolstered my can do attitude and prompted actions relating to taking the bull by he horns.

This is yet another (there really is so many) reason I call into question your belief not to have been an addict. I engage in a lot of sex. And a lot of masturbation. All with varying degrees of frequency (some weeks can be lots, some can be none at all) and at no point has it negatively impacted my productivity, concentration, stablility, attitude or actions.

That it did for you seriously questions the level of commitment (and addiction) you had to the practice in the past. With one breath you assure us your use was not heavy and not addiction. With the next breath however you describe it's impacts on your life in ways that match not just closely but EXACTLY the descriptions most addicts give for their conditions and the impacts it has on their lives.

You are talking the perfect talk of a recovering addict in every way while all the while protesting you never were one. Again I repeat I do not know you and can not conclusively say one way or another but you will have to forgive my strong suspicions when ALL the available evidence swings one way and NONE the other.

It is of course possible to overcome addiction while living in denial of it. Many people have done so. The vast consensus however seems to be that the most powerful weapon an addict can add to their arsenal in their fight is to first admit they have a problem. I work with many people on this and have seen it time and time again and the patterns are as clear and unmistakable to me as the trained musicians ear picking out a note played on a piano.

mikom

Eramen wrote: »

Eating better, expanding meaningful relationships, self-correction, learning new languages, new skills, tasking yourself with trying new activities, propelling yourself

upward in the workplace, setting up new business links/ventures, founding new intellectual thought/circles, and participating activity within the culture - seeking to build new facets to it. It is in essence ordinary, but extraordinary in the sense that very few people take advantage of this - of life. In short: "Living up to your words".

Learn to challenge yourself. Create and try new things, understand yourself, Man the fúk up. Your life of psychoanalysis is not life. Live dangerously

Don't get ahead of yourself there Socrates.
Educating yourself about circumcision would be a start for you.

Eramen wrote: »

Female circumcision = bad, male circumcision= good wtf?! .

Eramen wrote: »

I know it's hard to grasp, but you are Irishes, I know your parochial, fake-rebellious, self-impressed mentality, I've grown used to it. You are the real addict.

"I hear you are a racist now father."

You'll have to work on that bad personality trait as well.
Plenty of time now that you are in NOFAP mode.

hooradiation

Eramen wrote: »

This psychological analysis was impressive to say to the least, though probably for all the wrong reasons! I'm actually more partial to Carl Jung than the psychoanalysts though, so consider that fair warning for next time!

Actually read your response to two members of my family and we all had a good chuckle :P

It's very clear to me that our philosophies on life, if you even have one, are dramatically different. This is where the misunderstanding of what I am saying stems from. For me one has to take control of his life and to become a navigator of his own destiny. The will-to-power, self-mastery, propelling yourself toward your goals and object, living beyond the cultural conventions of the present age (such as revising the theory that masturbation/porn is positive for most). Why should I in all honesty accept this opinion? It's backward. I challenge that assumption and so should everyone.

It all may sound very grandeur and a mindset of self-delusion or "Nietzschean", which it must to you, but its very ordinary indeed when you get right down to it. Eating better, expanding meaningful relationships, self-correction, not waiting on others for the 'go ahead', learning new languages, new skills, tasking yourself with trying new activities, propelling yourself upward in the workplace, setting up new business links/ventures, founding new intellectual thought/circles, and participating actively within the culture - seeking to build new facets to it.

It is in essence ordinary, but extraordinary in the sense that very few people take advantage of this - of life. In short: "Living up to your words by your deeds". This is a what life is. Life is not static, it's about improvement and cultivation of yourself. Can you not see this? This is what eliminating porn is to me, nothing else.

I know it's hard to grasp, but you are Irishes, I know your parochial, fake-rebellious, self-impressed mentality, I've grown used to it. You are the real addict. Porn is a waste of time, it's a fantasy that your better off not wasting your precious time on. Jerking off to it is a loser-mentality that you grow out of. Find a man or woman and get real. It's not so hard. Even then try to make something productive out of the relationship. And yes, porn, it's affected society, especially the young, my age group - and not for the common good.

Learn to challenge yourself. Create and try new things, understand yourself, Man the fúk up. Your life of psychoanalysis is not life. Live dangerously

All your post has demonstrated is that Reddit has some serious fucking bullshit to answer for.

Eramen

mikom wrote: »

.......

Isn't is 'mad' when a person suggests that to stop watching porn regularly/occasionally as a means to self-improvement, gaining time to use for better things, might actually be beneficial.

Isn't it 'mad' when someone suggests with good reason that porn/masturbation addict may have potential negative effects on society, and impact badly on the addicts health and well-being.

"I couldn't be arsed in any way / shape / form." Is basically all I've seen. People here really love their porn.. you have problems if you love it that much, honest.