Carlin Isles... 12 weeks from starting to play rugby

Niallof9

19543261 wrote: »

You seem to be taking this quite personally.

Nothing personal, just annoys me no end, the way people can dismiss Irish players and such. Forget the sprint time, Isles has no great pedigree in terms of Ivy league scholarship or drafts etc even.He got an All-American, fair play but where were offers etc. But if he takes up rugby, he will naturally become an international class back. I don't buy that.

And that train of thought dismisses thousands of rugby players who bust their ass in Europe and South Hemph. Toulon are a moneyed, horrible entity with no soul, much like Man City. they have the money to sign everybody and anyone. they can take that punt. Leinster wouldn't in a million years, because they are a professional side.

it is interesting no doubt. it's a great story. and if the USA breaks into rugby, the sport we all love will become a truly global game. that would be amazing.

i just don't buy into the idea of the USA being as almighty as they once were in all things sporting

Its like New Zealand, yes they once housed the best athletes, like New Zealand in rugby due to them being the most professional and moneyed. but this is no longer the case in everything from tennis, athletics to golf. I would include NFL in that if they moved to rugby.

Other nations and athletes have caught up. And yes Ireland houses some of those athletes; Brian O"Driscoll being our most famous example. In the UK and Ireland we don't use the word really to describe non track and field, where in America its how they describe all sports people.

Niallof9

Coleridge wrote: »

Also, if he becomes even a moderate success, his story will likely inspire other athletics/NFL cast-offs who are have attributes that would be well-suited to rugby to take up the game. That’s surely a good thing.

Good luck to him.

yes in fairness its a good thing if that happens. but there is the crux of it. who saids these casts offs are good enough for top class rugby. nigel melville? eddie o'sullivan? its a great idea but in all that time, we've had two crossovers. Dan Lyle being the first donkey years back. Rugby has so many facets to it. If it was a simple game based on raw talent, Jeremy Staunton would be a 50 capper. Its not, its bloody tough and mentally only the strongest make it.

pickarooney

Toulon have no soul?Utter bull****.


Pity isles didn't sign for aix. I'd pay to watch him slumming it in the federale.

19543261

Niallof9 wrote: »

But if he takes up rugby, he will naturally become an international class back. I don't buy that.

Nobody is saying that.

His speed is exceptional, and if he were able to bring the other aspects of his game up to any kind of standard, then he will be worth the investment. If he turns out to be a dud, so be it. But he's certainly worth an attempt. The "hype" you mention only concerns his speed, and in that its deserved.

thomond2006

Niallof9 wrote: »

Toulon are a moneyed, horrible entity with no soul, much like Man City

Ever been to a game there? I've been and it's far from soulless. If you're going to throw the 'moneyed' term just at Toulon, that's not exactly fair. Clermont, Racing and Toulouse all have similar budgets.

RCT also have a history, they have won more French titles than Clermont Auvergne. They've likely made the town itself a lot of money too, the local council own the ground and they clearly understand the club's importance to the local economy. 1,500 Leicester fans went over there for the quarter final, they needed hotels, food, drink, transport. Fantastic for the town. I'm by no means saying the club is perfect, I don't like Boudjellal's antics either. But it's not all bad.

While Isles won't play much next year, he'll be training with some of the top players in his likely position. He'll learn loads and maybe he can be loaned for a part of the season at least.

Niallof9

pickarooney wrote: »

Toulon have no soul?Utter bull****.


Pity isles didn't sign for aix. I'd pay to watch him slumming it in the federale.

they bought the Heineken cup and for that they are never going to gain the respect of a Toulouse.

That is probably his level. How do you know otherwise? Cause he is fast, he is automatically a top 14 player?

Pays d'Aix RC play in the second level.

trouttrout

Niallof9 wrote: »

they bought the Heineken cup and for that they are never going to gain the respect of a Toulouse.

That is probably his level. How do you know otherwise? Cause he is fast, he is automatically a top 14 player?

Pays d'Aix RC play in the second level.

Same Toulouse that had the biggest budget in the T14 when they won the HC?

thomond2006

Niallof9 wrote: »

they bought the Heineken cup and for that they are never going to gain the respect of a Toulouse.

That is probably his level. How do you know otherwise? Cause he is fast, he is automatically a top 14 player?

Pays d'Aix RC play in the second level.

Toulouse spend money too you know. They have the highest budget in the Top14.

http://www.sport.fr/rugby/top-14-les-budgets-2012-2013-des-clubs-du-top-14-277905.shtm

Burgo

trouttrout wrote: »

Same Toulouse that had the biggest budget in the T14 when they won the HC?

Would the same things be said about clermont if they had won? they have a similar budget and a large number of foreign imports.

Niallof9

thomond2006 wrote: »

Ever been to a game there? I've been and it's far from soulless. If you're going to throw the 'moneyed' term just at Toulon, that's not exactly fair. Clermont, Racing and Toulouse all have similar budgets.

RCT also have a history, they have won more French titles than Clermont Auvergne.

Ok fair enough it was a reactionary term. Soulless in terms of what they are doing to French rugby with imports.

There is no denying they bought the Heineken cup. There's Brock James and then theres Matt Giteau. Racing I would place in the same category but if Jono's moving there then that means things are changing behind the scenes. Down to earth etc.

A club like Perpignan, a region where ive played federale and somewhere like Racing; A huge difference in their outlooks and what they're about. Same with Toulouse. They are rich but it never became what they were about. Guy Noves embodies that.

Niallof9

22 May 2010
18:00 Biarritz 19 – 21 Toulouse Stade de France, Saint-Denis


Skrela pen (3/5) 33', 36', 65'
Drop: Fritz (1/1) 38'
Skrela pen (2/2) 51', 58'

see an Englishman winning that? They may have bought but least it was largely French.

Toulouse have 11 ( three who are Georgian) foreign players out of a 40 odd man squad. they may have money but alot goes into facilities, youth rugby, marketing (they compete with football now) and yes they may hoover up French talent from the smaller guys but if I was a french man i'd rather that than supporting a club dominated by foreign players. Would you be happy with Leinster or Munster doing that if the IRFU relaxed the NIQ. I wouldn't.

thomond2006

There is no denying they bought the Heineken cup. There's Brock James and then theres Matt Giteau. Racing I would place in the same category but if Jono's moving there then that means things are changing behind the scenes. Down to earth etc.

Comparing James and Giteau is pretty selective, what about Sivivatu? Byrne? Do you reckon top internationals like them came cheap? They're keeping Buttin and Nakatiaci out of the team, who are both French qualified.

Toulouse and Clermont have higher budgets than Toulon, it is widely reported. There's plenty unsavoury things about Toulon, but accusing them of throwing around money is one eyed when other clubs do the very same.

So if Toulon 'bought' the Heineken Cup, if Clermont/Racing/Toulouse win it next year you can say the very same thing.

.ak

Niallof9 wrote: »

Nothing personal, just annoys me no end, the way people can dismiss Irish players and such. Forget the sprint time, Isles has no great pedigree in terms of Ivy league scholarship or drafts etc even.He got an All-American, fair play but where were offers etc. But if he takes up rugby, he will naturally become an international class back. I don't buy that.

And that train of thought dismisses thousands of rugby players who bust their ass in Europe and South Hemph. Toulon are a moneyed, horrible entity with no soul, much like Man City. they have the money to sign everybody and anyone. they can take that punt. Leinster wouldn't in a million years, because they are a professional side.

it is interesting no doubt. it's a great story. and if the USA breaks into rugby, the sport we all love will become a truly global game. that would be amazing.

i just don't buy into the idea of the USA being as almighty as they once were in all things sporting

Its like New Zealand, yes they once housed the best athletes, like New Zealand in rugby due to them being the most professional and moneyed. but this is no longer the case in everything from tennis, athletics to golf. I would include NFL in that if they moved to rugby.

Other nations and athletes have caught up. And yes Ireland houses some of those athletes; Brian O"Driscoll being our most famous example. In the UK and Ireland we don't use the word really to describe non track and field, where in America its how they describe all sports people.

None of this post has any relevance to a chap who's been given a shot at pro rugby.

backgreen

19543261 wrote: »

Nobody is saying that.

His speed is exceptional, and if he were able to bring the other aspects of his game up to any kind of standard, then he will be worth the investment. If he turns out to be a dud, so be it. But he's certainly worth an attempt. The "hype" you mention only concerns his speed, and in that its deserved.

all hype...the guy is fast but no speedster.. 10.2.. in the states your next door neigbour could probably do that..paul hession the irish record holder 10.18 ..why not give him a go? and he has a hurling background also

Niallof9

.ak wrote: »

None of this post has any relevance to a chap who's been given a shot at pro rugby.

ok AK you know best. Its a thread addressing a player and his ability.

Its a chap being given a shot due to some people seeing him being a supreme, and indeed, a better athlete than rugby players. Its all hype based on one asset; speed. Speed and ability to jump don't make you an athlete. Brian O'Driscoll is as much an athlete as Isles.

As the chap below saids, Paul Hession by Irish standards is a superb "athlete" cause he's fast. Its a dud of a theory. I as an AIL video analyst and watcher (and underage coach) tell you that in Ireland there are plenty of wingers who have a better set of skills than Isles. They're not faster. But you don't become a professional winger because you are fast as an anyone who has seen Trimble and Bowe will testify. its the whole package.

In the US all top sports people are referred to as generic athletes, here they are not. So it is relevant when its used as a entry point for failed American sprinters or failed NFL players. They as Americans (my gf is american) see any non-us sport as inferior and its projected outwards. We buy a little into that, not so much anymore.

Anyway he won't make it and people compare him to USA's Ngwenya who grew up playing rugby in a country (Zimbabwe) influenced by South Africa.

A bit like Zebo (who i love) is considered fast because of his dad being a near olympian. his time stats (which i have seen) compared to his game speed (which i have seen) are not the same. He is actually not that fast, but he has a great skill set.

Even in the NFL they recognize this, game speed versus training speed. THey won't draft a guy just cause hes fast - hence the combine tests.

So what makes him good enough for rugby? And sevens doesn't count...

.ak

Niallof9 wrote: »

ok AK you know best. Its a thread addressing a player and his ability.

Its a chap being given a shot due to some people seeing him being a supreme, and indeed, a better athlete than rugby players. Its all hype based on one asset; speed. Speed and ability to jump don't make you an athlete. Brian O'Driscoll is as much an athlete as Isles.

As the chap below saids, Paul Hession by Irish standards is a superb "athlete" cause he's fast. Its a dud of a theory. I as an AIL video analyst and watcher (and underage coach) tell you that in Ireland there are plenty of wingers who have a better set of skills than Isles. They're not faster. But you don't become a professional winger because you are fast as an anyone who has seen Trimble and Bowe will testify. its the whole package.

In the US all top sports people are referred to as generic athletes, here they are not. So it is relevant when its used as a entry point for failed American sprinters or failed NFL players. They as Americans (my gf is american) see any non-us sport as inferior and its projected outwards. We buy a little into that, not so much anymore.

Anyway he won't make it and people compare him to USA's Ngwenya who grew up playing rugby in a country (Zimbabwe) influenced by South Africa.

A bit like Zebo (who i love) is considered fast because of his dad being a near olympian. his time stats (which i have seen) compared to his game speed (which i have seen) are not the same. He is actually not that fast, but he has a great skill set.

Even in the NFL they recognize this, game speed versus training speed. THey won't draft a guy just cause hes fast - hence the combine tests.

So what makes him good enough for rugby?

You're missing the point. Your post seemed to pick at lots of different things you think is wrong with the rugby world, i.e; toulon's money, america's sports ideology, and New Zealand.

The guy got into rugby late, tried his hand at 7s and was decent going forward. Now he's been given a shot at pro union rugby, so what's the big deal? If he fails, so be it. Why are you taking such exception to it? It won't change the rugby world over night or anything. You'll still be able to play/coach it tomorrow. Nothing has changed.

It might not work. In all probability, it won't work. But let the kid have a go at it before it does fail. And if it does fail, it's no skin off your nose, so why get it out of shape over it?

Best of luck to him I say. Hope he makes it - and good to see a team out there is willing to try and experiment and see if it works.

Deano7788

I don't think anybody said he's a better athlete than the likes of O'Driscoll. He's got one very good attribute that is useful in rugby and has to decided to give it a go. He might not make it, and in all probablility won't, but I'd love to see him succeed simply because he's had the guts to try it and could be exciting to watch.

I'd also like to see Lawrence Okoye succeed at American Football after being recruited despite never having played a game simply because he had the guts to try rather than play it safe.

Niallof9

Deano7788 wrote: »

I don't think anobody said he's a better athlete than the likes of O'Driscoll. He's got one very good attribute that is useful in rugby and has to decided to give it a go. He might not make it, and in all probablility won't, but I'd love to see him succeed simply because he's had the guts to try it and could be exciting to watch.

I'd also like to see Lawrence Okoya succeed at American Football after being recruited despite never having played a game simply because he had the guts to try rather than play it safe.

Nobody on this thread, but thats the general consensus when somebody sees the video.

yeah fair play but he would have been better served playing the circuit and in America before leaping into a huge club like Toulon.

Lawrence Okoye would be interesting but again from talking to an English age grade coach, he wasn't going to make it in rugby, as despite his size and athleticism didn't have the skills or footwork.

Deano7788

Niallof9 wrote: »

Nobody on this thread, but thats the general consensus when somebody sees the video.

yeah fair play but he would have been better served playing the circuit and in America before leaping into a huge club like Toulon.

Lawrence Okoye would be interesting but again from talking to an English age grade coach, he wasn't going to make it in rugby, as despite his size and athleticism didn't have the skills or footwork.

Yes, but he was good enough to make to the final of the Olympic discus (although he was disappointing in said final) and be ranked in the top 5 in the world 2 years after 1st picking it up. Yet he's now given that up to try American Football.

Gamayun

Niallof9 wrote: »

and 23 is late, no top level player IN THE MODERN AGE has joined rugby beyond the age 18 (not including league as its similar)

Tom Court

Niallof9

.ak wrote: »

You're missing the point. Your post seemed to pick at lots of different things you think is wrong with the rugby world, i.e; toulon's money, america's sports ideology, and New Zealand.

Best of luck to him I say. Hope he makes it - and good to see a team out there is willing to try and experiment and see if it works.

Toulon, gave him a shot, one more foreigner won't hurt, thats the first point. The story about the Leinster trial was just bs, they would never have signed him.

Secondly, the New Zealand thing is in terms of a similar perception. The Kiwi is always better at rugby. Its normally true, but they're are exceptions such as Clint Newland. They were the professionals before professionalism, so it gave them a great base to start from and we all played catch up.

Thirdly, similar in world sport such as Athletics, tennis, golf and basketball, the US dominated. So just cause Isles is part of that once dominant machine doesn't make him superior or at 23 having never played the 15 man game having a reasonable shot at making it. I suppose theres a NBA fan having the same debate in a parallel boards. Giving out about inferior Chinese or Serbian players in basketball!

Mostly the rest of the world have caught up in facilities, research, sponsorship. Hence the American Athlete can't just wade into another sport and become successful. If it was that easy, they're would have been many more Dan Lyles and that was 1996. People aren't stupid, look at the crossovers in AFL, NRL, GAA in comparison. If theres money to be made people would do it. But rugby is a bloody tough game. Its not easy to make it to an AIL first team never mind a top club in Europe. There is more rugby players to NFL than the other way around. So my bee in my bonnet, really is this underrating of our great game nothing else.

Look i said before it would be amazing for the USA to be a global force. I love rugby and that would make this game truly global. It suits America and they do have plenty of athletes, if caught early enough. 23 is too late imo. Gavin Hickie an old team mate at St.Mary's is in the process of addressing this, had a us high school team over to play Lansdowne in March. Thats the USA's future athletes. groomed to play top class rugby. Once that is there, latecomers can enter a ready made system/culture. As somebody else said its a silly move anyway, due to him trying to pick up the basics of a game, not being fluent in french.

but anyway lets leave it at that. like you say it would be great if he made it. I love America. I just think any presumptions by people, Toulon included, based on one overrated asset, hurts other young players who have busted their guts since their teens or before (thinking of Toulon academy)

Niallof9

Gamayun wrote: »

Tom Court

good spot. He is a loose-head prop though, so bar scrummaging and lifting (hes a shot-putter) he doesn't have to do much tackling in space, kicking, positioning, backline moves, handling etc.

he grew up in a rugby country (league or union) and as most Irish fans will testify isn't very good at the top level. Hopefully Dave Kilkoyne and Jack McGrath consign him to being the only unfortunate anomaly.

Niallof9

Deano7788 wrote: »

Yes, but he was good enough to make to the final of the Olympic discus (although he was disappointing in said final) and be ranked in the top 5 in the world 2 years after 1st picking it up. Yet he's now given that up to try American Football.

Yeah fair play, way too many Irish kids give up one sport if they don't make it. he is a beast

Though rugby is being dismissed in his story across the pond. Its former olympian etc. Its the opposite of Isles, based on size and power. And some NFL fans are pointing this out already.How his signing is undervaluing the skill set needed for NFL.

He had trials at London Irish and another side. Plaayed daily mail cup final in UK and then turned to discus. There is no doubt any rugby club in Europe would have thrown money at him if he was going to make it.

wadacrack

Niallof9 wrote: »

yeah but Halai is 6,5 and 105 kg with Isles being 72 kg. Halai played for Wesley College and is ingrained in rugby his whole life most likely.

People need to stop looking for this " mythical athlete" to come from USA. Are you trying to tell me Dan Carter, Thierry Dusatoir or Paul O'Connell aren't athletes. Or that Hayden Smith or Ebner were these monsters in union? NFL is a tough but hugely overrated game. Isles is an impressive runner and athlete but it does a huge disservice to modern professional rugby to claim that this is in anyway enough. New Zealand are the ultimate athletes in rugby ( the whole package) i would take every one of them (in a super 15 squad/under 20 environment over an Isles.)

Cian Healy's strength tests are at an olympic level. that is a fact.

modern rugby players are athletes. will the nfl/us or indeed they're foreign they must be better sycophants deal with this fact. Pisses me off no end. Carlin Isles will not make it in the 15 man game. i will take money from anybody here.

In terms of speed and explosive power rugby is a long way behind the nfl. Theres is a big gap. Cian Healy strength tests. Olympic level.Explain? i doubt he can clean and jerk the same as weightlifters in his weight class

clsmooth

But can he do it on a wet and windy night down in Connacht?

backgreen

wadacrack wrote: »

In terms of speed and explosive power rugby is a long way behind the nfl. Theres is a big gap. Cian Healy strength tests. Olympic level.Explain? i doubt he can clean and jerk the same as weightlifters in his weight class

rugby is a long way behind nfl as far as juicing is concerned..nfl still does't test HGH

wadacrack

backgreen wrote: »

rugby is a long way behind nfl as far as juicing is concerned..nfl still does't test HGH

NFL atletes are much faster and powerful. Do you concede that? .drug abuse is just speculation

Dietsquirt

wadacrack wrote: »

In terms of speed and explosive power rugby is a long way behind the nfl. Theres is a big gap. Cian Healy strength tests. Olympic level.Explain? i doubt he can clean and jerk the same as weightlifters in his weight class

This is utter bollox.

I agree that Healy wouldn't be as strong/powerful as professional/olympic weightlifters in his weight category. He is however as much as an athelete as the NFL guys, he just gets paid one tenth of their wage.

backgreen

wadacrack wrote: »

NFL atletes are much faster and powerful. Do you concede that? .drug abuse is just speculation

not from drinking milk...

Niallof9

wadacrack wrote: »

In terms of speed and explosive power rugby is a long way behind the nfl. Theres is a big gap. Cian Healy strength tests. Olympic level.Explain? i doubt he can clean and jerk the same as weightlifters in his weight class

its true, my sources are two analysts who work with the fitness guys.

and nfl train for different types of plays. rugby players need more stamina. they are not a long way behind, please. exactly what i'm talking about notions based on nothing. some very powerful rugby players who if they trained for shorter spurts would be near the same. they don't though. Hayden Smith what is he a rugby player or an NFL player? NFL is hugely overrated. A great game, but overrated. The average running back/wide reciever at same weights than rugby backs.

try tell me that Savea isn't explosive or somebody like that.