Carlin Isles... 12 weeks from starting to play rugby

jamiedav2011

Swiwi wrote: »

2 words Stev_o. Frank Halai. Sevens star, now taking the 15-man game seriously. Going OK for the Blues. Of course, he needs time, but I wouldn't just write Isles off like that.

Ah come on, that's nowhere near a similar comparison, I'm assuming Halai didn't pick up 15s at 23 without having seen a game before?!

It's not just the move from 7s which is unlikely enough, it's the fact that Isles lacks a basic understanding of the game.

Swiwi

Stev_o wrote: »

Isles is and never was a 7's star, he doesn't even start for the USA team he comes on during garbage time when the game is already over. Honestly a lot of being made of him when he is still incredibly raw. Throwing him straight into French rugby is a waste of time and will do him no favours. He needs to remain on that 7's circuit.

I don't watch too much 7s, so I'll trust whatever you say, but if he wants a crack at 15s, no issue from me, but I agree he needs to earn his stripes first at lower levels.

Stev_o

The difference between people who made it 15's after coming from 7's was that they were actually good at 7's. List of all those who made the transition and you can trace back their circuit performance to being extremely good.

Isles is the good feel story we all want, a true American athlete who all dreamed of seeing playing a sport and showing what the US would be like if rugby was a mainstream sport. However the reality is that Isles isn't tearing it up, that while everyone wants to see him play he isn't a top 10 or 20 probably on the circuit.

And honestly going to Toulon/Dax to gain experience? Are you kidding me? Learning a new sport in a foreign culture where you don't speak the language or know anyone is a great road to success!

Swiwi

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Ah come on, that's nowhere near a similar comparison, I'm assuming Halai didn't pick up 15s at 23 without having seen a game before?!

It's not just the move from 7s which is unlikely enough, it's the fact that Isles lacks a basic understanding of the game.

Touché to a certain extent, Jamie, but Halai was written off as having little hope at SXV level, and he's now being talked about as a possible AB. But i agree you can't exactly compare that with Isles.

pickarooney

Stev_o wrote: »

And honestly going to Toulon/Dax to gain experience? Are you kidding me? Learning a new sport in a foreign culture where you don't speak the language or know anyone is a great road to success!

It's a pretty good litmus test of someone's willingness and ability to adapt if you ask me.

Stev_o

pickarooney wrote: »

It's a pretty good litmus test of someone's willingness and ability to adapt if you ask me.

It's a road to failure. If you had a friend who really wanted to get into playing rugby would you let an experienced person talk and train him in English or would you get an experienced French guy to do it all in French. Which do you think would work better?

thomond2006

One issue for Isles will be that Dax are not a strong ProD2 side, they avoided relegation by four points. Isles probably won't get too many easy 'run in' tries.

pickarooney

Stev_o wrote: »

It's a road to failure. If you had a friend who really wanted to get into playing rugby would you let an experienced person talk and train him in English or would you get an experienced French guy to do it all in French. Which do you think would work better?

The language is largely irrelevant. If he has the desire he'll pick up enough of it in no time in any case. Having no comfort zone can bring out the best in some people. Others flounder completely when they're in an alien environment.

Stev_o

pickarooney wrote: »

The language is largely irrelevant. If he has the desire he'll pick up enough of it in no time in any case. Having no comfort zone can bring out the best in some people. Others flounder completely when they're in an alien environment.

It's a fairly massive issue if you have no understand of the basic concepts of rugby. How is a coach supposed to train a player if neither can understand each other?

19543261

Stev_o wrote: »

It's a fairly massive issue if you have no understand of the basic concepts of rugby. How is a coach supposed to train a player if neither can understand each other?

He's not going to Mars. I'm sure this has been thought through at least a little bit more than that.

.ak

Let him fall first before pushing him Stev_o.

Stev_o

.ak wrote: »

Let him fall first before pushing him Stev_o.

I honestly want him to succeed. But I don't think throwing him into XV's to Dax is the best way of making him a better player. He has a better chance becoming a better player by spending 2 years on the circuit then going to Franch imo.

pickarooney

Stev_o wrote: »

It's a fairly massive issue if you have no understand of the basic concepts of rugby. How is a coach supposed to train a player if neither can understand each other?

If you've no understanding of the basics of rugby (and I'd imagine he's at least familiarised himself with the rules) then whether you first hear the words 'ruck', 'maul', 'bind' in English or French won't make a difference. You can only pick up these notions by playing and making mistakes.

thomond2006

Oh dear.

Toulon now cannot loan out Isles straight away to a ProD2 because of some rule that a player cannot be loaned in the first year of his contract. So it looks like Isles will be in the Toulon squad this season, competing against Palisson, Habana, Mitchell, Smith and Wulf for a wing spot. Not a great prospect for him!

Source: http://www.rugby-transferts.com/top-14/toulon/0020786-exclu-toulon-imbroglio-avec-une-recrue.html

Then again, Toulon did loan back Guy Armitage to London Irish when he couldn't get a game. I hope Isles can get released to a lower club as he won't get near the Toulon team.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Oh dear.

Toulon now cannot loan out Isles straight away to a ProD2 because of some rule that a player cannot be loaned in the first year of his contract. So it looks like Isles will be in the Toulon squad this season, competing against Palisson, Habana, Mitchell, Smith and Wulf for a wing spot. Not a great prospect for him!

Source: http://www.rugby-transferts.com/top-14/toulon/0020786-exclu-toulon-imbroglio-avec-une-recrue.html

Then again, Toulon did loan back Guy Armitage to London Irish when he couldn't get a game. I hope Isles can get released to a lower club as he won't get near the Toulon team.

Yeah what about Guy Armitage or Michael Bennett?

Maybe he'll get loaned to the Pro 12 or Premiership. Maybe it's allowed outside the country.

Niallof9

19543261 wrote: »

Bit of a knee jerk reaction there, Stev. Plenty of established players joined the game late. There's no reason to believe he cant pick up the basics - Toulon and Dax seem to think so too. There is nothing about him which is overrated, unless you're talking about his speed, in which case you'd be wrong.

total bs in regards to claiming a knee-jerk. he has no pedigree in rugby. he is overrated as in Toulon signed him on the back of speed. an overrated asset in rugby as we see often. rugby is not about one trait or the other its a whole package, even on the wing. defence, kicking, footwork, timing, handling. speed isn't even the first thing, as Trimble and Fitzgerald show.

Nigel Walker, one example shown and someone like Artmiev closer to home, who apart from speed didn't impress anyone at Leinster or many at UCD.

and 23 is late, no top level player IN THE MODERN AGE has joined rugby beyond the age 18 (not including league as its similar)

.ak

Well Luke Skywalker was too old to begin the training, wasn't he?

Podge_irl

Is Arteries still at Northampton? I thought the only reason he left Leinster was because he wasn't actually Irish qualified.

Niallof9

Swiwi wrote: »

Touché to a certain extent, Jamie, but Halai was written off as having little hope at SXV level, and he's now being talked about as a possible AB. But i agree you can't exactly compare that with Isles.

yeah but Halai is 6,5 and 105 kg with Isles being 72 kg. Halai played for Wesley College and is ingrained in rugby his whole life most likely.

People need to stop looking for this " mythical athlete" to come from USA. Are you trying to tell me Dan Carter, Thierry Dusatoir or Paul O'Connell aren't athletes. Or that Hayden Smith or Ebner were these monsters in union? NFL is a tough but hugely overrated game. Isles is an impressive runner and athlete but it does a huge disservice to modern professional rugby to claim that this is in anyway enough. New Zealand are the ultimate athletes in rugby ( the whole package) i would take every one of them (in a super 15 squad/under 20 environment over an Isles.)

Cian Healy's strength tests are at an olympic level. that is a fact.

modern rugby players are athletes. will the nfl/us or indeed they're foreign they must be better sycophants deal with this fact. Pisses me off no end. Carlin Isles will not make it in the 15 man game. i will take money from anybody here.

P_1

Podge_irl wrote: »

Is Arteries still at Northampton? I thought the only reason he left Leinster was because he wasn't actually Irish qualified.

Don't think so, last I heard of him he was captaining the Soviet 7's

Niallof9

Podge_irl wrote: »

Is Arteries still at Northampton? I thought the only reason he left Leinster was because he wasn't actually Irish qualified.

maybe. the coaches at UCD (AIL level) didn't rate him even. he was never going to make it in Ireland and yes the permit didn't help. A nice signing for Northampton in terms of an exotic Russian but plenty of Irish wingers better, nothing to do with speed. his hands were awful (im a ucd head)

Winters

Podge_irl wrote: »

Is Arteries still at Northampton? I thought the only reason he left Leinster was because he wasn't actually Irish qualified.

I think he is still there but I havent heard of him playing for a while. Maybe he is out injured.

Niallof9

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I think the thing is to picture him two years from now.
- Tackling. 2 years you can get to a reasonable level
- appreciation of position. Training games/video analysis/coaching from defensive coaches
- Size he only needs a few more kilos. Guy like him would have ridiculous leg drive and explosiveness. He'd easliy brush aside one on ones with bigger tacklers. (In fact doesn't he brush off someone in the video with quick hand off?)
- Attacking skills. Pace is everything and his sevens running lines were decent.
He can make it and I think a pro coach somewhere in Europe will see him as being worth the risk.
2 years down the line you have the fastest back in rugby but will probably never make a great kicker. Worth the risk.

where does any of this come from? guesswork? why would he have good leg drive? he's not a running back...he won't make it, move on. if he took up the game at 16,17 then you could perhaps make those claims. you are insulting nearly every rugby player who plays semi-pro above with these assertions that at 23 a guy with no rugby experience and little pro experience in general could morph into a professional class back in two years. sevens is a completely different game. and Ngwenya first played rugby in Zimbabwe.

we don't hear many people, saying that we should sign that kenyan back who scorched his way to a try at Hong Kong. its a kind of good face theory from Moneyball, cause he's black, fast and American he will naturally become a great athlete/rugby player. bs. like the NFL scouts who can't sign white running backs for fear of losing job, as its presumed the faster african american athlete is a better prospect. Peyton Hillis an example.

19543261

You seem to be taking this quite personally.

locum-motion

P_1 wrote: »

Don't think so, last I heard of him he was captaining the Soviet 7's

He's gone back in time 22 years, has he?

jacothelad

Stev_o wrote: »

It's a road to failure. If you had a friend who really wanted to get into playing rugby would you let an experienced person talk and train him in English or would you get an experienced French guy to do it all in French. Which do you think would work better?

How do you know he doesn't speak French?

thomond2006 wrote: »

Oh dear.

I hope Isles can get released to a lower club as he won't get near the Toulon team.

I know you are thinking of Munster here. You're just trying to sell another pair of p'j's to a novice.

thomond2006

jacothelad wrote: »

I know you are thinking of Munster here. You're just trying to sell another pair of p'j's to a novice.

I got an order of 100 pairs from NOC, I'm out of stock unfortunately.

jacothelad

thomond2006 wrote: »

I got an order of 100 pairs from NOC, I'm out of stock unfortunately.

:D:D:D..not 666 pairs?

.ak

People are being way to dismissive over this. Give the kid a chance. If he fails, well then so what, atleast he gave it a shot. I say fair fecks to him, I'd love to get involved in senior professional rugby at his age!

Also, this whole attitude of 'he won't make it, move on' isn't really within the spirit of a discussion forum. It's an interesting subject, mostly because it hasn't happened before. People are interested, nothing more, no need to be so dismissive of the discussion.

Coleridge

Don’t really see the problem here. Yes, it’s unlikely that Isles will make it as a top level 15s player. But he might.

From a Toulon point of view, they don’t have anything to lose and everything to gain if this stirs a little interest in US.

Also, if he becomes even a moderate success, his story will likely inspire other athletics/NFL cast-offs who are have attributes that would be well-suited to rugby to take up the game. That’s surely a good thing.

Good luck to him.