'Jewish and Democratic'

Banbh

Lucy and Harry join this circular thread to tell us that many Jews are Christian.

This is the problem with the Hasbara (the Israeli-sponsored trolling organisation). A friend of mine was approached to join and offered a holiday in Israel when he would acheive a posting quota. Unfortunately, though Jewish, he was not a supporter of the ethnic-cleansing regime in Israel. He discovered that his contact didn't even read his posts. Anyone reading 'Lucy and Harry' can see they clearly do not know their arses from their elbows and haven't read this thread.

Since my original post we have had the usual defences of the indefensible: Israel is a democracy because Saudi Arabia isn't. Israel does not trample on human rights because Syria does. Israel has a right to 'clear' Palestinians because of the Holocaust. Israeli colonial expansion is justified because those opposed are anti-semitic.

Now do I get that holiday?

Lucy and Harry

Cool story bro.Any of it factual.?You are saying any body here that believes Israel is a democracy is being paid to do so?This is tin foil hat time.Arab Israelis in Israel have more rights there than any other Arab country..Gay people have rights not found anywhere in the Middle East.I would rather be a Arab Israeli in Israel than Syria or Libya..They have voting rights and jobs.

That is not to say I have not listened to Llan Pappe about the Nakba and frowned..Or Rabbi Lior.


Are we saying Ireland is a Catholic country so it is not a democracy?Every religion has a right to vote here and they also do in Israel so case closed.

Nodin

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Cool story bro.Any of it factual.?You are saying any body here that believes Israel is a democracy is being paid to do so?This is tin foil hat time.Arab Israelis in Israel have more rights there than any other Arab country..Gay people have rights not found anywhere in the Middle East.I would rather be a Arab Israeli in Israel than Syria or Libya..They have voting rights and jobs.

That is not to say I have not listened to Llan Pappe about the Nakba and frowned..Or Rabbi Lior.


Are we saying Ireland is a Catholic country so it is not a democracy?Every religion has a right to vote here and they also do in Israel so case closed.

And the occupied territories?

Bannasidhe

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Are we saying Ireland is a Catholic country so it is not a democracy?Every religion has a right to vote here and they also do in Israel so case closed.

To expand on Nodin's question was Ireland a democracy when it was an occupied territory?

Yes.

Did it have self-determination?

No.


As for Ireland being a Catholic country - no, it isn't.

It is a country in which the majority are Catholic - that is not the same thing.

It does not offer citizenship to every Catholic regardless of their connection -or lack of- to Ireland.

Lingua Franca

Nodin wrote: »

So its a conspiracy, is it?



And that somehow makes their extremists ok?



Of course not. Nor do you seem too knowledgable of extremist hindus, christians or other sects. Its just muslims, muslims, muslims.........



What are you trying to imply here?

Funny that SeanW can come back to thank posts but not to answer questions that have been put to him.

Shills, keep on shilling.

robindch

SeanW wrote: »

Thanks for that link robin, but from what I can tell from the reviews of the book, it seems to state that a liberal mindset (especially in the education of children) should EXCLUDE moral/cultural relativism. I.E. that there can - and should - still be absolutes of right and wrong that apply to all.

The book explains that the notion of moral or cultural relativism as propounded and propagandized by the religious and by right-wingers (a) rarely if ever actually exists in practice and (b) is explicitly excluded from the form of liberalism which Law proposes (and what's basically what I understand by the term). It does not, however, say that there are absolutes of right and wrong, or good and bad cultures, but does explain that there are worse and better acts, and worse and better cultures; ie, without invoking moral absolutism and the arrogance that the term implies.

SeanW wrote: »

The problem is that from what I can see, an "anything goes" mentality of moral relativism is the mindset behind some of the positions of ... certain regular posters ... here.

That's not liberalism as I understand it, and I don't know of any posters -- heavens, I can't think of anybody non-religious at all -- who believes that they have a right to do anything they want to, or that they are right to do anything they believe is right.

If you do believe that there are "PC multicultural leftists" here in A+A, then can you either name them and ask them to justify their position, or else, just stop bandying about the term as, frankly, it's unhelpful.

SeanW

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Funny that SeanW can come back to thank posts but not to answer questions that have been put to him.

Shills, keep on shilling.

Are you accusing me of shilling? Who would I be shilling for - hardly Israel or Zionism - since I've explicitly stated that Israel should be criticised if/when it does bad things.

biko

Nodin wrote: »

As regards the Tunisian cleric - do I have to start throwing out radical rabbis or will you accept theres lunatics in all religions?

You make the Tunisian cleric out be be an isolated incident. I suppose it suits you to think Muslim clerics that are extreme are a tiny minority and no-one pays attention to them. Instead these imams are everywhere and more common that you would like to admit.
In fact you could even argue that the majority of imams are extreme, because Islam is extreme. Both UK Dispatch and Swedish TV has shown that imams behind closed doors condone beating of women and rape inside marriage.
Not some - but almost all the imams did this. Are they extreme or mainstream, what do you think?

It surprises me why left-wingers are so eager to embrace Islam, a religion that suppresses everyone around it, mainly women, and at the same time hate on the only country in the middle east that allow women to be free.

And while Christianity is being wiped out of the biblical heartlands in the Middle East because of mounting persecution of worshippers and Muslims in Africa are actively targeting and killing Christians - not an eyebrow is raised by the left in Ireland.

SeanW wrote: »

Are you accusing me of shilling?

Don't worry about it, it's just the latest way they try to get to you. I usually ignore these feeble attempts at rising me.

SeanW

biko wrote: »

And while Christianity is being wiped out of the biblical heartlands in the Middle East because of mounting persecution of worshippers and Muslims in Africa are actively targeting and killing Christians - not an eyebrow is raised by the left in Ireland.

Of course not, it's all "Israel, Israel, Israel" all the time. I ask for proportionality, that the Left show it has the same problem with Islamic extremism as it does with Zionism, and all I get are accusations of racism.

Don't worry about it, it's just the latest way they try to get to you. I usually ignore these feeble attempts at rising me.

It's more laughable than anything else since I've made it clear on a number of occasions that I do not think Israel should be immune from criticism.

In fact I don't even think it's a good idea for Jews to gather in one place anyway.

Aparently I'm not going to get that free holiday to Israel from Hasbra any time soon.

Bannasidhe

biko wrote: »

You make the Tunisian cleric out be be an isolated incident. I suppose it suits you to think Muslim clerics that are extreme are a tiny minority and no-one pays attention to them. Instead these imams are everywhere and more common that you would like to admit.
In fact you could even argue that the majority of imams are extreme, because Islam is extreme. Both UK Dispatch and Swedish TV has shown that imams behind closed doors condone beating of women and rape inside marriage.
Not some - but almost all the imams did this. Are they extreme or mainstream, what do you think?

It surprises me why left-wingers are so eager to embrace Islam, a religion that suppresses everyone around it, mainly women, and at the same time hate on the only country in the middle east that allow women to be free.

And while Christianity is being wiped out of the biblical heartlands in the Middle East because of mounting persecution of worshippers and Muslims in Africa are actively targeting and killing Christians - not an eyebrow is raised by the left in Ireland.


Don't worry about it, it's just the latest way they try to get to you. I usually ignore these feeble attempts at rising me.

Well, I for one have never been afraid to criticise Islam and have in my time had heated arguments with Radical Imams when I worked as a community worker in London's East End - just as I had heated argument's with Hasidic Rabbis and to be honest I found the two groups markedly similar in their attitudes.

But I also found that I could count on support within the Muslim community but as far as the Hasidic were concerned I was a female Goy not worthy of their attention. In fact, I was treated with utter contempt by the Hasidic community on the whole while the majority of Imams were willing to compromise and Muslims in general accepted they did not live in a Muslim country and if they wished to avail of Local Authority services they had to accept the rules applied to everyone equally - not seek special exceptions just for them.

However, this thread is not about Islam - It is about the State of Israel and to continually drag Islam/Saudi Arabia etc etc etc is, imho, nothing but deflection and whataboutery.

Seems to me little different to arguing that Republican extremists in Ireland are justified in their murder campaigns as the Unionists are no better.
Extremism is the problem regardless of what religion/flag it drapes itself in.

It is not an either/or option. One can criticise the State of Israel without being anti-Semitic, just as one can abhor prejudice and extremism wherever it manifests - criticising Israel does not imply one supports radical Islam any more than criticising the Vatican means one supports Evangelical Christianity or that it is not possible to condemn Irish republicanism without being a Unionist.

I am a woman, I am a Socialist. I criticise Israel because all of the people who live within the territories it controls are not Free. There is no such thing as half-free.

People have the option of opening threads on other topics - such as Islam - if they wish to - in this thread we are discussing Israel.

Nodin

biko wrote: »

You make the Tunisian (.......) rising me.

I wasn't aware I'd "embraced" any religion. I do, however, object to a state that has embarked on a colonial enterprise. Going on about who has such and such rights within that state while ignoring who is deprived of rights by that state strikes me as doublethink in the extreme.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

Of course not, it's all "Israel, Israel, Israel" all the time. I ask for proportionality, that the Left show it has the same problem with Islamic extremism as it does with Zionism, and all I get are accusations of racism.

Islamic terrorism is illegal. Various groups have been banned over the years and it's members arrested. Israel has no sanctions against it.......

biko

Bannasidhe wrote: »

However, this thread is not about Islam - It is about the State of Israel and to continually drag Islam/Saudi Arabia etc etc etc is, imho, nothing but deflection and whataboutery.

People have the option of opening threads on other topics - such as Islam - if they wish to - in this thread we are discussing Israel.

Actually it's about Jewish democracy but that went out the window as soon as the usuals showed up and dragged it into another general "Israel bad, Gaza good" thread.
I'm not surprised since it happens in every thread Israel or jews are mentioned.

Hasidic Jews and Muslims do have similar views on many things, for instance they both separate women and men in places of worship.
They also both don't want to see women showing too much skin.
Muslims approach this by ordering women to cover themselves up, the jews get blurred glasses so they can't see the women.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am a woman, I am a Socialist. I criticise Israel because all of the people who live within the territories it controls are not Free. There is no such thing as half-free.

Fascinating, what's your stance on the freedom of the peoples in the surrounding countries, mainly their women's lib movements?

Also what is your stance on that Palestinians in Egypt and Jordan have less rights than in Israel? For instance only this year were Palestinians with Egyptian mother given any rights in Egypt.
None of the countries are particularly willing to help Palestinians.
To them Palestinians are merely pawns to be used to get back at Israel for winning the wars in 1948 and 1967.

Lucy and Harry

Nodin wrote: »

And the occupied territories?

They are not part of the Israel state.Only people can vote from the country of Israel.
Even Druze can vote and serve in the army and Arab Israelis can vote.
:pac:

Nodin

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

They are not part of the Israel state.Only people can vote from the country of Israel.
Even Druze can vote and serve in the army and Arab Israelis can vote.
:pac:

....but they're under the de facto rule of Israel. And Israeli settlers who live in colonies in the territories can vote and have the same rights as if they lived within Israel. Does that not strike you as somewhat incongruous?

Nodin

biko wrote: »

Actually it's about Jewish democracy but that went out the window as soon as the usuals showed up and dragged it into another general "Israel bad, Gaza good" thread.
I'm not surprised since it happens in every thread Israel or jews are mentioned. .

Actually it went haywire in post 14 when there was a bit of the usual "but the Arabs..." was dragged into it. And of course the usual turning of the blind eye as regards to what the Israeli state does in the OT.

Just as a matter of interest, where has anyone claimed or implied that "gaza" was good?

Fascinating, what's your stance on the freedom of the peoples in the surrounding countries, mainly their women's lib movements?

biko wrote:

Also what is your stance on that Palestinians in Egypt and Jordan have less rights than in Israel? For instance only this year were Palestinians with Egyptian mother given any rights in Egypt.
None of the countries are particularly willing to help Palestinians.
To them Palestinians are merely pawns to be used to get back at Israel for winning the wars in 1948 and 1967.

Funny, I thought you wanted to focus on "Jewish democracy "

biko

Nodin wrote: »

Funny, I thought you wanted to focus on "Jewish democracy "

Yes but that part seems done now and you are mostly interested in the "Israel is occupying land around it and because of this is evil" point.

Nodin wrote:

undemocratic colonial regime on its nearest neighbours. Thus, the notion that Israel is the "only democracy in the middle east" fails any detailed scrutiny.

Are you saying Israel isn't a democracy, if so what is it?
Is Israel is a dictatorship or something other than a democracy, that still lets Arabs vote for Arab parties?
What other democracies are there in the middle east at the moment? Any you prefer to Israel?

biko

Palestinian medical tourism
Saving Children, established by the Peres Peace Center, enables hundreds of Palestinian children to receive free medical care, in particular cardiac surgery, from Israeli surgeons.
"Save A Child's Heart" is a program in which any child with heart problems can receive free medical attention and surgery from select doctors and hospitals within Israel. From 1996 to 2007, 4,591 children had been examined world wide, of the 1848 children treated 828 (45%) were Palestinian.

Lucy and Harry

Israel is wrong to build settlements but it is a democracy according to the requirements of what you need to be a Democracy
But if the man across the road hated me and wanted me dead would I give him anything if I have all the power?
This is what we have in Israel they have a mighty army and take whatever they want and untill some country has the balls to stand up to them they will take what they want.It is human nature to take and be greedy.It is why we will never have peace in the world.

Nodin

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

Israel is wrong to build settlements but it is a democracy according to the requirements of what you need to be a Democracy
But if the man across the road hated me and wanted me dead would I give him anything if I have all the power?.

....as long as you don't think theres anything inherently moral about democracy, thats ok.

Lucy and Harry wrote: »

This is what we have in Israel they have a mighty army and take whatever they want and untill some country has the balls to stand up to them they will take what they want.It is human nature to take and be greedy.It is why we will never have peace in the world.

Not far off the truth.

Nodin

biko wrote: »

Yes but that part seems done now and you are mostly interested in the "Israel is occupying land around it and because of this is evil" point.

Are you saying Israel isn't a democracy, if so what is it?
Is Israel is a dictatorship or something other than a democracy, that still lets Arabs vote for Arab parties?

Israel does not let Palestinians in the OT vote, lets its colonists do so, yet is the de-facto ruler there. This is still in theory "democracy" but not after the Western European model. The closest comparison is apartheid South Africa. I doubt anyone who will suffer because of this kind of thing will be complementing the Israeli state on its "democracy".
http://www.btselem.org/settlement/20121218_miriam_leedor_e1_oped

Once again I find it bizarre that a modern European is defending a colonial regime. I'd suggest your distaste for Islam is clouding your judgement.

biko wrote: »

What other democracies are there in the middle east at the moment? Any you prefer to Israel?

"....but the Arabs" again?

Lingua Franca

biko wrote: »

Don't worry about it, it's just the latest way they try to get to you. I usually ignore these feeble attempts at rising me.

"They"? What on earth do you mean by "they"? I detect a hint of paranoia in the air...

I am highly suspicious of people arguing in a thread and throwing out questions who then seem to disappear when they are asked questions in return, especially when it's obvious that they are reading it and choosing not to respond. It looks like they don't have answers so they're keeping their heads down until the conversation moves on. That is the case no matter what the subject matter. In this case the subject happens to be Israel and the poster in question is posting "but what about Islam? Come on people, what about Islam?" I just don't think that whatabouttery has a place in this discussion. And I'll happily discuss and criticise Islamic fundamentalism and the lack of democracy in Islamic countries, if the poster cares to make a thread about it.

Or I they might just try to get a rise out of him. Who knows? :P

Bannasidhe

biko wrote: »

Actually it's about Jewish democracy but that went out the window as soon as the usuals showed up and dragged it into another general "Israel bad, Gaza good" thread.
I'm not surprised since it happens in every thread Israel or jews are mentioned.

Hasidic Jews and Muslims do have similar views on many things, for instance they both separate women and men in places of worship.
They also both don't want to see women showing too much skin.
Muslims approach this by ordering women to cover themselves up, the jews get blurred glasses so they can't see the women.


Fascinating, what's your stance on the freedom of the peoples in the surrounding countries, mainly their women's lib movements?

Also what is your stance on that Palestinians in Egypt and Jordan have less rights than in Israel? For instance only this year were Palestinians with Egyptian mother given any rights in Egypt.
None of the countries are particularly willing to help Palestinians.
To them Palestinians are merely pawns to be used to get back at Israel for winning the wars in 1948 and 1967.

Open a thread about Egypt and Jordan if you want my opinion on those.
Open a thread about the lack of women's rights in Muslim countries and I will comment.
Open a general thread about the Palestinian diaspora and I will discuss it.

Is 'Jewish Democracy' different from common or garden democracy? I don't think it should be. Many Jews agree with me. Many Israelis agree with me.
To continually engage in 'what about' is nothing but deflection.

biko

So what do you want to chat about? How bad Israel is for occupying lands?

Maybe this is more in line with this thread: what do you think should happen?
Should Israel withdraw from the territories?
Is a two-state solution with Hamas possible?
How should the land be divided?
Do you think that if all the jews were driven into the sea the Palestinians could move in and that would be the end of it? We'd have peace in the region?

As a matter of interest - have you been in Israel?

Nodin

biko wrote: »

.............
Do you think that if all the jews were driven into the sea the Palestinians could move in and that would be the end of it? We'd have peace in the region??

Good to see we're avoiding loaded questions and their implications.

biko wrote: »

.............
As a matter of interest - have you been in Israel?

Ahh, we've now reached the Tourism round.

biko

Did you have anything to add Nodin or do you just want to "meta*" the whole conversation?

*discuss the discussion instead of discussing topics.

biko

Lingua Franca wrote: »

"They"? What on earth do you mean by "they"? I detect a hint of paranoia in the air...

Yeah it's something that started in AH where FG and FF supporters would accuse each other of "shilling" for the parties.
I suppose it's up there with the "you're an agenda poster" and "I found this quote from you in 2007" stuff.



I'm not condoning all Israel's actions, for instance the way they treated Mordechai Vanunu is despicable. But seeing how "popular" it is to hate on them while they actually, in my view, are trying really hard to be a stable country under enormous pressure from the western liberals.
Not to mention the neighbours who would not hesitate to invade and kill every last Israeli, based on that they perceive Israel to be an illegitimate state altogether and partly because of old and deep-rooted anti-semitism.

SebBerkovich

If Isreal wasn't so good at defending itself we might be having a very different conversation.

Isreal exists in the lands is has because it's been able to hold those lands, that's how Europe was for most of it's existence as well as how The USA is the country it is today. It's not like Isreal invented it. maybe people should exept that that is simply how countries come into existance.

Lingua Franca

biko wrote: »

Yeah it's something that started in AH where FG and FF supporters would accuse each other of "shilling" for the parties.
I suppose it's up there with the "you're an agenda poster" and "I found this quote from you in 2007" stuff.

So what "they" are you saying that I'm a part of? Is everyone who disagrees with you on an issue one of "them"?

I'm not condoning all Israel's actions, for instance the way they treated Mordechai Vanunu is despicable. But seeing how "popular" it is to hate on them while they actually, in my view, are trying really hard to be a stable country under enormous pressure from the western liberals.

I have a different view of it. I don't think Netanyahu is working in the interests of his people, given how many protests there are because the more settled older generations (oddly enough, many of whom are "western liberals") are being screwed over in favour of new waves of immigrants suiting his expanionism plans. He doesn't appear to listen to anyone but his particular yes-men with regards to expansionism, military actions and his thirst to start a war with Iran. I really don't believe he gives a flying one about stability, even. He wants to be the one to cement Israel as an untouchable, irreproachable exclusively Jewish state and he's making an unstable situation far, far worse due to his total inflexibility.

Not to mention the neighbours who would not hesitate to invade and kill every last Israeli, based on that they perceive Israel to be an illegitimate state altogether and partly because of old and deep-rooted anti-semitism.

I dunno, they seem hestitant enough to me.

Nodin

biko wrote: »

I'm not condoning all Israel's actions, for instance the way they treated Mordechai Vanunu is despicable. .

I would have thought 45 years of building colonies, ethnic cleansing and land seizures worthy of a mention meself.

biko wrote: »

But seeing how "popular" it is to hate on them while they actually, in my view, are trying really hard to be a stable country under enormous pressure from the western liberals..

This doesn't look like the actions of a state in danger of becoming unstable....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/25/israel-approves-settlement-units-jerusalem