'Jewish and Democratic'

Banbh

This from US representative Rice after Israel/US lost the vote at the UN on Palestinian statehood:

"...two states for two people with a sovereign, viable independent Palestine living side by side in peace and security with a Jewish and democratic Israel,"

But can a state be both Jewish and democratic? (And equally - so as the thread is not derailed - can the Islamic Republic of Iran be truly a republic?)

If a country declares itself to be of a particular religion then those of other religions and none cannot be full citizens and that country cannot call itself democratic.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

of course it can, democracy is just about how you choose a government. jim crow america was still a democratic republic, Ireland when condoms were illegal was still democratic and israel where arabs are second citizens is still democratic.
democratic doesn't mean good.

Banbh

Democracy is just about how you choose a government? I think there's a bit more to it than that. That definition would make apartheid South Africa or even Nazi Germany a democracy.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well the nazis seized power through undemocratic means. why wouldn't south africa have been considered a democracy? they held elections didnt they? the fact it was a racist state is seperate from how that state was organised. SA and israel could be democratic or not, they'd still be racist.

Peregrinus

"Jewish" isn't just a religious identity; it's an ethnic/national identity. And most Israeli Jews are, in fact, not religious. So, can you have a Jewish and democratic state? Well, if you can have an Irish and democratic state, a French and democratic state, an Italian and democratic state, then you can have a Jewish and democratic state. Why not?

Of course, a Jewish and democratic state will have to meet challenges, and one of them will be dealing democratically with its non-Jewish minority. Lots of democratic states face a similar challenge, but this will be particularly acute both because the non-Jewish minority is pretty large and because there's an unfortunate history of hostility and conflict that has to be overcome. But there's nothing in the Jewish, as opposed to French, or Arab, or Chinese, nature of the state which makes overcoming it a priori impossible.

robindch

A democracy is a political system in which the government is run directly by the citizens and all decisions are made via public referendum. Ireland, on the other hand, runs a representative democracy, in which the citizens elect individuals who make decisions -- although the way it runs here, the citizens elect individuals who elect an individual who makes decisions, so it's arguable that it's neither democracy, nor representative democracy.

South Africa under apartheid denied non-whites votes and the right to sit in the national parliament, so it wasn't a representative democracy either. Similarly, Nazi Germany ran three parliamentary elections in the 1930's, but limited the candidates to those approved by the Nazi party, so while most people could vote, there was no chance that the Nazi party would lose power, so that wasn't really a representative democracy. And neither of them were in the slightest bit democratic.

The Nazis, incidentally, acquired absolute power in Germany relatively easily, and broke few, if any, laws while doing so. Neither did it break many legs in the process -- that came later.

Banbh

The Jewishness of the Israeli state is based solely on religion. Non-religious people in Israel (of Jewish heritage) do not have full rights and immigrants from the US or Russia do - if they adhere to the Jewish religion.

In fact, as I have a Jewish granny, I can declare myself an Israeli in the morning with more property and voting rights than others who were born and have lived in the area.

Defining nationality by religion cannot be democratic as it excludes some citizens.

Peregrinus

Banbh wrote: »

The Jewishness of the Israeli state is based solely on religion. Non-religious people in Israel (of Jewish heritage) do not have full rights and immigrants from the US or Russia do - if they adhere to the Jewish religion.

In fact, as I have a Jewish granny, I can declare myself an Israeli in the morning with more property and voting rights than others who were born and have lived in the area.

Defining nationality by religion cannot be democratic as it excludes some citizens.

I'm not sure I follow you, Banbh. If you can become an Israeli tomorrow on the strength of your grandmother being Jewish, that suggests that it;s not necessary for you yourself to be religious in order to qualify as an Israeli citizen. In other words, you don't need to be religious to immigrate to Israel and immediately become a citizen and have the full rights of citizens; you just need to be Jewish (i.e. to be Jewish by descent).

As for people born in Israel, SFAIK everyone born in Israel, Jewish or not, is an Israeli citizen with full citizenship rights. (But this is not true of people born in the occupied territories.)

Obliq

Sounds a bit like Ireland then: "If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland and if any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen." http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Sounds a bit like Ireland then: "If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland and if any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen." http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

Possibly in the case of Israel it is different in that Judaism is passed through the female line - so if one had a Jewish grandmother and a Jewish mother one is considered Jewish and can become a citizen of Israel without any of one's ancestors ever having set foot there in the last 2000 years. I am not aware of any other State that grants citizenship based only on religion. To be Irish under the grandparent clause - one's grandparent must have been born on the island of Ireland, Israel has no such qualification - one simply needs to be Jewish.



At least this was how it was explained to me by a Jewish friend - who set her son to a Jewish school in North London so he could be aware of his culture and took him out again pretty quickly when he came home spouting extremist Zionist views.

Does anyone know if they do extend the grandparent clause to non-Jews whose grandparents were born in say Jerusalem?

BTW it was a 3rd generation Israeli who once described Zionists to me as 'Jewish Nazis'.

Obliq

I know what you're saying, but as was mentioned before, the Jewish people are an ethnic culture as well as a faith.

Dades

robindch wrote: »

A democracy is a political system in which the government is run directly by the citizens and all decisions are made via public referendum. Ireland, on the other hand, runs a representative democracy, in which the citizens elect individuals who make decisions...

So the question as to whether a country is a *real* democracy (representative or otherwise) boils down to whether all the population are allowed to vote for whoever they want - without restriction on skin-colour, candidates, or without dubious counting practices.

If the above is followed it doesn't matter whether you call a state "Jewish and Democratic", or "Irish and Democratic", or even a "Democratic People's Republic".

Clearly in many cases, however, this is not the case.

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

I know what you're saying, but as was mentioned before, the Jewish people are an ethnic culture as well as a faith.

True - but how far does that 'ethnicity' stretch?

In the case of Israel it is limitless as long as one's female line of descent is Jewish. No other country does that as far as I am aware. Using the ethnicity argument would allow Paul Ryan to claim Irish citizenship even though he is 5 generations removed. :eek:

The Jewish friend who explained it to me was born in Paris and was her mother, her grandmother was born in Poland as were the previous 5 generations. Now because his mother/grandmother/gg-grandmother etc etc were Jewish her son Bou-Bou (as we called him) was entitled to Israeli citizenship yet Bou-Bou's children are not entitled to Israeli citizenship as their mother is Goyim - ethnicity is not the criteria applied, it is religion.

biko

The hardcore jews in Israel are indeed very hardcore but the majority of the people are not very religious at all.

I would say that Israel is already a democracy today.
As a part of democracy people tend to look at how free a country is - freedom to worship, freedom to leave, freedom of expression without repercussion etc.
Considering this Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.

Let me know when a transsexual man can represent an Arab nation as Dana International did for Israel in Eurovision 1998, 14 years ago.

Nodin

biko wrote: »

The hardcore jews in Israel are indeed very hardcore but the majority of the people are not very religious at all.

I would say that Israel is already a democracy today.
As a part of democracy people tend to look at how free a country is - freedom to worship, freedom to leave, freedom of expression without repercussion etc.
Considering this Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.

Let me know when a transsexual man can represent an Arab nation as Dana International did for Israel in Eurovision 1998, 14 years ago.

Athens was a democracy, and was a nation of war mongering slave owners. America was a democracy and was a nation where a large part of the economy was based on slavery. Israel is a nation that illegally colonises areas outside its borders and runs a two tier apartheid like system. Going 'but look at the Arabs' doesn't really cut it.

Cool Mo D

robindch wrote: »

The Nazis, incidentally, acquired absolute power in Germany relatively easily, and broke few, if any, laws while doing so. Neither did it break many legs in the process -- that came later.

Completely untrue - for one thing the Nazi SA and SS were involved in paramilitary violence and murder of political opponents for 20 years before the party seized power. The Nazi's never achieved a majority in parliament (only gaining 19% of the vote in the 1932 election), and they gained absolute power by suspending the constitution in the aftermath of the panic of the burning of the Reichstag.

And they did not acquire power easily - it took them 20 years to get where they were, and many events along the way could have thrown them off.

Rented Mule

Democracy in all of these cases just means that you 'outnumber' the other groups in these countries.

Cool Mo D

And really, Ancient Greece (or apartheid South Africa) cannot be considered a democracy in the modern sense. To be a real democracy, you need universal suffrage.

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

True - but how far does that 'ethnicity' stretch?

In the case of Israel it is limitless as long as one's female line of descent is Jewish. No other country does that as far as I am aware. Using the ethnicity argument would allow Paul Ryan to claim Irish citizenship even though he is 5 generations removed. :eek:

The Jewish friend who explained it to me was born in Paris and was her mother, her grandmother was born in Poland as were the previous 5 generations. Now because his mother/grandmother/gg-grandmother etc etc were Jewish her son Bou-Bou (as we called him) was entitled to Israeli citizenship yet Bou-Bou's children are not entitled to Israeli citizenship as their mother is Goyim - ethnicity is not the criteria applied, it is religion.

Yeah, I don't dispute all that in the slightest. My fella was born in Scotland, his mother in Belgium (where she was sheltered in a convent during the war), his father in Poland, one set of Grandparents in the Ukraine and the other in Irkutsk, Mongolia. However, as the Jewish people were bumped from every country they were resident in, and have basically kept their bloodline through their faith (the fella looks Jewish, there could be no doubt about his ethnicity), I do see that their religion/culture/ethnicity is a fairly special case.

I agree that it's particularly contentious that for citizenship to their "homeland" of Israel, a jewish person's ancestors don't have to have been born there at all, and that that right is passed on solely through religious terms in the matriarchy is also extremely dodgy - but we all know how this messy situation came about through the age-old persecution of the Jewish faith. I am not saying it's right, and neither does the fella, but I do think that I can't adequately determine the rights and wrongs of it from here. In other words, it's SUCH a mess, that I can't form a proper opinion.

robindch

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Completely untrue - for one thing the Nazi SA and SS were involved in paramilitary violence and murder of political opponents for 20 years before the party seized power.

Never said they weren't; check the post again, though I'd say their prior violence took place over something closer to ten or twelve years, rather than 20

The point I was making above is that the Weimar Republic and which allowed the Nazis, fully legally, to assume dictatorial powers was, broadly speaking a representative democracy much like our own, but one which the Hitler subverted once he did assume power and in the process, turning it into something that wasn't a representative democracy. This was in response to Banbh's claim that Nazi Germany was democratir -- it certainly wasn't.

robindch

Cool Mo D wrote: »

And really, Ancient Greece (or apartheid South Africa) cannot be considered a democracy in the modern sense. To be a real democracy, you need universal suffrage.

Ancient Greece was arguably closer to a true democratic system (voting rights existed for a large number of male citizens) than what we run here in Ireland today (voting rights for 166 people, mostly men; with irregular referendums voted on by all citizens).

Cool Mo D

robindch wrote: »

Ancient Greece was arguably closer to a true democratic system (voting rights existed for a large number of male citizens) than what we run here in Ireland today (voting rights for 166 people, mostly men; with irregular referendums voted on by all citizens).

Only if you believe that representative democracy is somehow less of a "true" democracy than direct democracy, which seems like a bit of a no true scotsman issue to me.

robindch

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Only if you believe that representative democracy is somehow less of a "true" democracy than direct democracy [...]

I'm saying that representative democracy is one thing and democracy with all decisions made by the citizens is quite another, despite the term "democracy" being applied to both.

Personally, I prefer the latter polity, though I still despair at the inability of the citizens of Ireland to wrap their tiny little heads around what referendums actually are.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

I'm saying that representative democracy is one thing and democracy with all decisions made by the citizens is quite another, despite the term "democracy" being applied to both.

Personally, I prefer the latter polity, though I still despair at the inability of the citizens of Ireland to wrap their tiny little heads around what referendums actually are.

I am appalled at how the citizens of Ireland seem to have no idea as to how the system works..or doesn't as the case may be...

biko

Nodin wrote: »

Athens was a democracy, and was a nation of war mongering slave owners. America was a democracy and was a nation where a large part of the economy was based on slavery. Israel is a nation that illegally colonises areas outside its borders and runs a two tier apartheid like system. Going 'but look at the Arabs' doesn't really cut it.

Pretty unfair comparison there Nodin. I suppose you could compare it other old or ancient nations but anyone in Israel is free to leave, there's no slaves there.
1.5 million Arabs with Israeli citizenship can vote in elections, that about 20& of the total population.
As for two-tiered apartheid system - there are even Arab parties in Israel, how many jewish parties can you find in the surrounding nations?

pauldla

I suppose it comes down to how one defines 'democratic'. It can be a very vague term, as people in the DPRK might say (very very quietly to themselves).

Siuin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Possibly in the case of Israel it is different in that Judaism is passed through the female line - so if one had a Jewish grandmother and a Jewish mother one is considered Jewish and can become a citizen of Israel without any of one's ancestors ever having set foot there in the last 2000 years.

No, actually your're wrong. You don't need to be Jewish to qualify for the Right to Return. You only need one Jewish grandparent (from either side). I dated a Russian who was not Jewish, identified himself as a Christian in the Israeli army (for the additional holidays- he wasn't religious) and was still well able to have full rights as an Israeli citizen. It's based on idea that if someone was 'Jewish enough' to die in the Holocaust, then they're Jewish enough to live in the State of Israel.

Obliq wrote: »

(the fella looks Jewish, there could be no doubt about his ethnicity)

There's no such thing as a 'Jewish look' per se. Just a stereotype of what Jews should look like which has gained momentum from anti-Semites. Jews can be an race or nationality and I've personally met Chinese, Ethiopian, Russian and Indian Jews, all very different in their appearances.

robindch

pauldla wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to how one defines 'democratic'. It can be a very vague term, as people in the DPRK might say (very very quietly to themselves).

The DPRK does have parliamentary elections, but their ballots contain the name of a single candidate nominated by the Party; the ballot isn't secret and you can have seven kinds of crap beaten out of you if you somehow manage to avoid voting for the party hack you're suppose to support.

Technically, it does constitute representative democracy, but of a fairly subverted type.

Mansai!

Nodin

biko wrote: »

Pretty unfair comparison there Nodin. I suppose you could compare it other old or ancient nations but anyone in Israel is free to leave, there's no slaves there.
1.5 million Arabs with Israeli citizenship can vote in elections, that about 20& of the total population.
As for two-tiered apartheid system - there are even Arab parties in Israel, how many jewish parties can you find in the surrounding nations?

I was talking about the occupied territories. And yes, as its Israel who instigates and enforces the policies that are enacted there, it makes it guilty of running an apartheid "province".

biko

So let's look at Palestine/Gaza/West Bank, is that a democracy?
What say you Nodin?

President Abbas rules the West Bank and Hamas the Gaza.
Are both Palestine? Are both a democracy?

If you had to spend a week in either Gaza, Israel or West Bank, where would you as an Irish man be most comfortable and safe?

Nodin

biko wrote: »

Lol. So let's look at Palestine/Gaza/West Bank, is that a democracy?
What say you Nodin?

President Abbas rules the West Bank and Hamas the Gaza.
Are both Palestine? Are both a democracy?

If you had to spend a week in either Gaza, Israel or West Bank, where would you as an Irish man be most comfortable and safe?

I see you're back at 'But the Palestinians....' again.

The west bank is run as a democracy, in as much as is possible, given the occupation.

Gaza was being run as a democracy, until certain parties didn't like the result....
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804